Where is this so called shortage

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TheRealMcCoy
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by TheRealMcCoy »

Hmm, i'm actually not against that really... An interesting perspective, I like it.^^^
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eyebrow737
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by eyebrow737 »

GhostRider6 wrote: Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:25 am I used to be against the Ramp....

I’ve been in the 705 environment for quite some time. It’s easy to spot the 200 HR wonders.. cocky, know-it -all attitudes.

I’ve heard college kids tell their captains that they had XYZ to offer over more experienced pilots because they had “ no bad habits” unlike like the rest of us.

The stories I hear.... man.

I worked the Ramp and was paid very very well.
..

I think every pilot new to an OP should start on the ramp regardless of time. It would probably take some of the 4000 hour pilots down a peg to be thrown on the Ramp with guys / gals with 200 hours. It’ll also show tue prospective 200 hour pilot what work ethic really is.

And yes, I’ve been the 3000 + hour pilot on the ramp.

Bring on the 1500 hour requirement or more to sit right seat on 705!!
Wait - so I've got 16000 hours some and wide body PIC and you're saying I should work the ramp before I join a new company? good luck with that.
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C-GGGQ
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by C-GGGQ »

I also call bs that you were paid "very very well" seen many a ramp job never seen more than 12 ish an hour, maybe 15 but more often than not 9-10 or a flat salary of 2k or something.
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digits_
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by digits_ »

eyebrow737 wrote: Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:22 pm
GhostRider6 wrote: Mon Oct 08, 2018 9:25 am I used to be against the Ramp....

I’ve been in the 705 environment for quite some time. It’s easy to spot the 200 HR wonders.. cocky, know-it -all attitudes.

I’ve heard college kids tell their captains that they had XYZ to offer over more experienced pilots because they had “ no bad habits” unlike like the rest of us.

The stories I hear.... man.

I worked the Ramp and was paid very very well.
..

I think every pilot new to an OP should start on the ramp regardless of time. It would probably take some of the 4000 hour pilots down a peg to be thrown on the Ramp with guys / gals with 200 hours. It’ll also show tue prospective 200 hour pilot what work ethic really is.

And yes, I’ve been the 3000 + hour pilot on the ramp.

Bring on the 1500 hour requirement or more to sit right seat on 705!!
Wait - so I've got 16000 hours some and wide body PIC and you're saying I should work the ramp before I join a new company? good luck with that.
Yes, and if they deem you worthy you get a right seat job on a Dash :mrgreen:

But if you would have dared to take a DEC position at Swoop, you would have been a pariah! With 16000 hours you need to be an FO first, just like the rest of us! :wink:

The system is broken.
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plhought
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by plhought »

We'll minimum wage in 'Berta is 15 bucks now.

The 'big' money for ramp guys/prospective pilots I knew was in the OT cleaning snow and doing ancillary duties like tech records, etc.

If yeah only wanted to . bags for 30 hours a week then yeah you made f-all.
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Diadem
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by Diadem »

C-GGGQ wrote: Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:30 pm I also call bs that you were paid "very very well" seen many a ramp job never seen more than 12 ish an hour, maybe 15 but more often than not 9-10 or a flat salary of 2k or something.
Before I started flying I worked a ramp job for a sizeable company, albeit one that could never have led to a cockpit. At the time it paid almost $20/hr to start, and it went up towards thirty for a basic, non-supervisory rampie position. That was years ago, and with inflation the starting pay is up to $25.
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GhostRider6
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by GhostRider6 »

Hey,

I should have been more specific. No, the 777 driver does not need to throw bags..

However, I don’t see it as being beneath someone with low time around 0-6000 hrs ish. And yes, I’m including myself in this with 5k.

Maybe having to put in a little more work to get that regional job ( jazz, encore, Sky, GGN) might elevate the pay ( which IS close to min wage).

When did we start being a bunch of entitled primadonnas?

Working the Ramp also works for the pilot.. there’s no bond. If you discover you don’t like the company during your Ramp tenure and your dreams of XYZ company aren’t exactly being realized.. then leave .. no bond.. nada

It might also ingrain some work ethic that seems to be missing...

Yes, I worked on the Ramp. And yes, I know what it’s like.. I did it for several years. For me and many others the Industry was crap when I started and was a constant struggle .. when you finally got somewhere company XYZ went bankrupt and you’d start all over again.. back on the Ramp from square one.

Back to the Ramp thing ... the expectation is you don’t take breaks, if you want lunch eat it with a broom in your hand..or on the forklift... you are in a constant state of motion. You find things to do when not doing onloads/ offloads and keep busy cleanup office garbage, wash planes, empty garbage for mechanics, clean someone’s car etc. I don’t see how a little work is beneath someone or “ degrading”? Or how this is awful? Want to know something? I’m better for it.. I treat support staff like human beings and with respect and I don’t think I’m God’s gift to the skies.

As for the original issue..I’m 100% against new college grads in 705 aircraft. I do think a sense of work ethic, respect for others and their position needs to be instilled first. This practice is dragging down wage and working conditions greatly for the rest of us who have put in our time and climbed the ladder.

Also, lots of the skills learned on the Ramp are transferable to the cockpit: teamwork, humility, thinking ahead, taking initiative etc etc

For the OP: as a newly minted pilot you need to create your own opportunities my first flying job came from working for an environmental consulting company to the mining industry. I met the pilots while I was loading and offloading aircraft ( note: not doing doing anything involved with environmental consulting) I was the “ new guy” and similar to Aviation, I wanna got the undesirable jobs ( which happens in many other professions) which led to my first Ramp job and then flying job. Why not volunteer as a pilot to get your time up? This is good experience and it looks amazing on a resume.

When I worked on the Ramp I was well paid and made more on the Ramp than in the plane. ( 4K / month) More than I make at my 705... by far
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digits_
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by digits_ »

GhostRider6 wrote: Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:14 am Want to know something? I’m better for it.. I treat support staff like human beings and with respect and I don’t think I’m God’s gift to the skies.
If that's what it takes for you to treat others with respect, then great!

There is a whole bunch of people out there who don't need to work the ramp in order to learn to treat people with respect though.

And there is also a bunch of people out there who can work the ramp for a decade and still will treat people like crap once they make it into an airplane.

The ramp is not some magical place that fixes everything that is wrong with humanity. Some common decency or basic education goes a long(er) way.
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GhostRider6
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by GhostRider6 »

Hi,

I do have an education and I do have a degree. And I had a career outside of Aviation where I started at the bottom and worked my way up. I had no issue with proving myself in either field or job that I was handed.. I also had zero issue with a little work to get to where I wanted. I never expected to be handed things on a silver platter.

And no, I was never the person that screamed at the waiter or waitress/barista/ whatever . ( metaphorically speaking) I learned that from a young age.. However, I see this in some of the people I’ve flown with.. people either forget where they’ve come from or have no perspective.

Similarly, if I see things not being done properly I have less of an issue speaking up.. because I know I’ve been there and I know I gave it my all and did things properly!

The Ramp didn’t solely teach me that. However, I think it’s normal to gain a lot from being pushed to the limit.. whether that’s working on the Ramp or in sports ..I push myself in whatever I do whether it’s in sports ( climbing, mountain biking etc) or flying. I push myself to be better.. and it builds character and teaches me things about myself everyday.. Is this such a bad thing? I’m also not perfect .. i’ll be the first to admit it.. and a little humility isn’t bad! My mountain bike is really good at humbling.haha!

I’m saying it might be beneficial for some people who have grown up on N64 to be pushed a little and humbled.

Maybe I wasn’t clear..
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seven-oh-nooo
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by seven-oh-nooo »

munzil wrote: Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:22 pm Why does a pilot have to do the time working on a ramp someplace.
Because at the small shops there's a big-ass question mark hanging over you until the boss gets to know you. I've hired rampies and flight followers and whatever the hell else and for an applicant with zero track record that's the safest way to do it. About a quarter don't make it to the cockpit. Is it because I'm heartless? Some would say yes. It's also because the ones who were let go from ground positions were deemed an unacceptable risk in an airplane. Flying is not like other careers because the consequences of your actions are often immediate and permanent. I'm certain by now I've saved at least two lives with my outlook on this. Possibly more.

Nowadays you ramp at the right place and you're flying an airplane inside six months. The current career ladder still has you starting in small airplanes with near-autonomous crews, it's that autonomy that needs you to show what you've got before you can be entrusted with it. All you have to do is gain the boss' trust.

That's the situation. That's how it is. Either bitch about it or use it to your advantage while leaving the entitled whiners in the dust.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by C-GGGQ »

Diadem wrote: Mon Oct 08, 2018 10:49 pm
C-GGGQ wrote: Mon Oct 08, 2018 1:30 pm I also call bs that you were paid "very very well" seen many a ramp job never seen more than 12 ish an hour, maybe 15 but more often than not 9-10 or a flat salary of 2k or something.
Before I started flying I worked a ramp job for a sizeable company, albeit one that could never have led to a cockpit. At the time it paid almost $20/hr to start, and it went up towards thirty for a basic, non-supervisory rampie position. That was years ago, and with inflation the starting pay is up to $25.
And before I started flying I worked Ramp for air Canada. Starting wage was 10.25 in 2005. Like I said. I've worked a lot of ramp jobs. Highest paid was perimeter at $12 in 2011/2012
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Outlaw58
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by Outlaw58 »

IMHO I think that between the entitled generation's point and the grumpy has-been's point. There is a common ground that can be found where most of us should agree that while there have been companies who have taken advantage of the masses of up and coming pilot willing to do anything to get that first gig, thus requiring the pilot body as a whole to stand up and say:"NO MORE!" There remains a minimum that up and coming pilots can and should do to set themselves apart from their peer in order to get that first gig. Ramp is one example, for me it was getting boot to ass in the military, and there are other example as well....

Walking out of the TC office with a piece of paper while saying:"Where's my damn job!?" is just not quite enough though.

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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by rookiepilot »

....And good times don't last forever. Something to keep in mind.
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jakeandelwood
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by jakeandelwood »

digits_ wrote: Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:33 pm
goingnowherefast wrote: Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:18 pm A 1500hr instructor is slightly better than a 250hr pilot. They generally learn faster. However, in a King Air, I'd still prefer a 1500hr Navajo pilot with previous 703 experience. Or really anybody with 1500hrs of even day vfr 703 experience. A 1500hr float pilot has figured out how to fly and think.
And a 1500 hour instructor hasn't?

CWE claims he'd rather have a 200 hour pilot he can teach himself, instead of a 1500 hour instructor. I think that's silly.

If we are generalizing: as an FO, it was pretty easy to figure out which captains used to be instructors, and which captains weren't. The micromanaging rushing type generally weren't instructors. The patient ones, usually were.
goingnowherefast wrote: Sun Oct 07, 2018 3:18 pm Think about it his way. The weather is 500' and 1sm visibility. You see the runway mile back at about 300' on the ILS/LPV. Who do you want as your FO, the 1500hr Beaver pilot who's flown in similar weather using that stupid ops spec? Or the 1500hr instructor who's never seen anything less than 2000' and 5 miles.
I've had both FOs, and it didn't matter to me. The beaver pilot might see the runway a bit sooner, but the instructor probably has a better IFR knowledge and possibly better instrument flying skills to fly an ILS manually.
The good Captains have patience. I've flown with those rushing Captains before, I know Airlines are bussineses but really, taking over the radio work while you are already taxiing and asking for take off clearance before I've finished the after start checklist? I know you are trying to impress the Chief Pilot and all by being early all the time but do you think 45 seconds is really going to matter? I seem to remember an accident where the flaps got left up on take off some years back.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by EPR »

I'm 100% in agreement, no 250 hour kid should ever be allowed to sit right seat 705, the time spent working ramp/dock builds character! Why build character you ask?
Because it instills work ethic and empathy, just to name a couple of attributes that you will eventually need to acquire, which you will quickly get by having that experience under your belt already...or hopefully you will eventually acquire it after maybe a decade of growing up without the ramp/dock experience! Why do I need work ethic and empathy you ask? Because with work ethic and empathy, everything else will fall into place as it should without pompous decisions and self entitlement, it just makes everything in regards to this job better for everyone involved because we've all been crewed with "that guy"!
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by pianokeys »

Mooseontheloose wrote: Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:52 pm LISTEN UP ALL YOU 200 HOUR WHY HASN'T WASAYA CALLED ME YET CRY BABIES!!!! TO BECOME CAPTAIN ACE MCKOOL YOU NEED TO BE STRONG AND RESILIENT!!! AINT NO ROOM IN THIS INDUSTRY FOR WUSSIES!!! TIME TO GROW UP! PACK YOUR LIFE INTO THAT CLAPPED OUT MINIVAN, BREAK UP WITH YOUR SASSY GIRLFRIEND, WAVE GOODBYE TO MAMA AND HIT THE DAMN ROAD!!!! WHAT YOU THINK THEY JUST HAND OUT FLYING JOBS TO THE WEAK AND NEEDY?!! YOU NEED TO BE HUNGRY!! YOU NEED TO BE A KILLER!!! LEMME SEE YOUR WAR FACE! AAARRRGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

TOO MANY YOUNG ONES WITH THE FORTITUDE OF A WET SOCK!!! BEEN ON EASY STREET FOR WAY TOOOOOOOOO LONG THEY'VE GOTTEN SOFT!!!! DON'T KNOW HOW TO TELL THE BOSS TO SHOVE IT!!! NEVER HAD TO FLY A HEAVEY LOAD INTO THE 'PANG!!! HAVE TO CALL MOM AND DAD WHEN THEY GET YELLED AT!! YOU SEE THEM EVERYWHERE WITH THEIR CLIP ON TIES, MODERN HAIRCUTS, SIPPING LATTES!! FA'S WALK ALL OVER THEM IT'S EMBARRASSING!!!!!!

IF YOU CANT FIND A FLYING JOB IN THIS MARKET ITS BECAUSE YOU SUCK!!!!!!! DON'T BE A BAG LICKIN' CHIMP!! GROW A PAIR OF YOUR OWN AND GET OUT THERRRRRE!! TELLING IT LIKE IT IS CAUSE IM THE REAL DEAL!!!!!

YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHH MEN!!!
YEAH!!! GET SOME BABY!!!!
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by pelmet »

I worked the equivalent of 'The Ramp' when I was getting started. In fact, I didn't get my first full time flying job until 8 years after my first evening of ground school for my private pilot license. Things were much slower in the industry in those days during some years.

At 18, I started working with a local with a local regional airline company with everything from small piton aircraft to jets and everything in between. It included everything from loading, cleaning, and the majority of time working in the maintenance department where I learned a lot as I worked on various licenses/ratings/building hours. Then I wasted two years of work in the industry by going back to school(which did absolutely nothing to help make me a better pilot) although I was still improving the flying experience. Then I spent a couple of years as a baggage handler at an international airport which was also helpful in learning about the ins and outs of airline ground handling. We handled everything from small 19 seat turboprops to 747's and just about everything in between including DC-8's, L-1011, and 707.

I avoided the useless diploma that has nothing to do with aviation and spent my 8 years of time building hours(although I also avoided instructing as well). During this hour/experience building exercise, I towed gliders and dropped parachutists on the weekend in the summer and year-round flew part-time for a small company which had reason to do flights to dozens of airports in Canada and the US from busy international airports to grass strips.

As far as I was concerned, the 'ramp equivalent' work had many great moments and no shortage of not particularly enjoyable moments but I am a more knowledgeable pilot for doing that work. While a degree in something aviation-related can have some use, the idea of requiring one and then accepting years of study in totally unrelated areas as qualification is completely stupid and may explain some of the incidents we see in the industry where basic errors are made which should have been lessons learned during the hour-building portion of ones career.

One can learn a lot about the industry from working the ramp although it is something that most of us will skip if a piloting opportunity allows. Overall, I really enjoyed my ramp experience as it got me hanging out with aircraft. Something I still do.
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by digits_ »

pelmet wrote: Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:47 am
As far as I was concerned, the 'ramp equivalent' work had many great moments and no shortage of not particularly enjoyable moments but I am a more knowledgeable pilot for doing that work. While a degree in something aviation-related can have some use, the idea of requiring one and then accepting years of study in totally unrelated areas as qualification is completely stupid and may explain some of the incidents we see in the industry where basic errors are made which should have been lessons learned during the hour-building portion of ones career.
You had to go there eh :twisted:

I'd like to claim that a somewhat scientific related degree will serve you far more in aviation than an equivalent amount of ramp experience. Someone who can get a science/engineering/... degree WILL be able to learn whatever you throw at him airplane related and actually understand said systems better. He will also have developed an attitude of seeing things through, helping each other out, team work etc, while learning to think analytically, objectively and logically.

If we combine all the info in this topic, we can conclude that the ramp is the only education people will ever need. You will learn everything there. How to behave, how to tie your shoes, how to make great money, how to fly an airplane. And now it even replaces a higher eduction!

(The following is not necessarily directed at you, pelmet, as I don't know you)

I can't help but think that pilots who went the ramp route are trying to use whatever argument is available to justify their ramp experience. "I had to work on the ramp for X years, so you should too. You'll learn so much. As a matter of fact, every pilot should go through the ramp!" The fact is, if you had a choice to bypass the ramp, or shorten your ramp experience, you would have. You would also have learned more about being a pilot by actually flying the bloody plane.

Instead of trying to hold on to how valuable the ramp was to you, be honest. I have not met ANY rampie-pilot who is happy to work the ramp or likes how much experience he is getting by working the ramp. The only pilot-rampies praising the ramp, are the ones that made it into an airplane. The human brain has the tendency to forget bad stuff and focus on the good stuff.

The ugly truth is: you hated it, it was mostly useless, and you didn't want to do it either. You had to do it, because it was the only option available at that time. Nowadays, it is not. There are other options. And that's where the ugly Canadian Aviation Attitude comes in: "I suffered, so you should too!". That's wrong. You'd think that the ramp would have learned you some more empathy and comraderie :wink:

A more healthy attitude would be: I went through it, I know how useless it is, I'll do whatever I can to make sure nobody else has to do it. Or encourage people who are looking for alternatives. I will try to improve the conditions of my fellow pilots. Unfortunately, that doesn't happen. The only time the Brotherhood of Pilots is important, is when people are accepting the cushy union jobs YOU want for less money, not when YOU have the chance to stand by new pilots to improve THEIR situation.

Accept that things are changing. For the better for once. Be happy about that. Don't push all the crap you had to do on someone else. There's no reason for it. While it might be annoying or hard to work with the "entitled pilots" (if such a thing actually exists), in time they have a big chance of turning into the pilots who won't accept peanuts anymore. You need a certain sense of entitlement to put your foot down and demand change and improvements. The very character trait you hate soo much today, could actually be very useful later on, one once they start going up in the ranks.


*rant over*
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by mixturerich »

OP, if you had several ramp offers, it was was very shortsighted to turn them all down. Do 6 months of ramp, a year and a half of 703 ops, then you’ll be at Jazz/Encore. That’s pretty much how it’s going these days. It’s a pretty simple formula. It’s literally never been easier to get to a regional and get a seniority number...assuming that’s what you want.

A ton of my friends and people I know worked the ramp for 6 months to a year, flew for a couple years (really all depends on how quickly you’re building hours), and now are at a regional, loving life, with a opportunity to upgrade in the near future.

What more could you possibly ask for?
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zipper
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Re: Where is this so called shortage

Post by zipper »

There is a shortage, but here are still entry level positions. The good news is that the amount of time spent in those entry level positions will be much shorter for you than it was for previous generations.
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