Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

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sportingrifle
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by sportingrifle »

Lightchop...like I said, it is just my personal opinion but I am reasonably content...no it is not even near perfect but in my opinion, ACPA has provided better representation than I have seen from other pilot labor groups.

Re: Rouge, in my opinion, is it ideal - no. But it was coming anyway and ACPA negotiated something an awful lot better than like happened at Jetstar, Swoop, etc. And the creation of Rouge was conditional on the mainline airline growing. Everybody at Rouge bid their positions, some quite like it and have stayed. The rest can bid back to mainline.

sportingrifle
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altiplano
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by altiplano »

Growth?

Where is the mainline growth?

How many fins were at mainline in 2012?

205

How many fins are at mainline today?

184

And 19 more EMJs are going back from that next year.

175 mainline fins

But EMJs "don't count" remember!? Why the @#$! don't they count? Those are mainline jobs.

I can't believe some people think there is mainline growth. Or that rouge grows only if mainline grows.

They already added 6 more 32Xs to the LCC.

You guys got tricked if you believe those ratios and baselines. "Growth" was based on fewer aircraft than were already on the property. We are reducing aircraft at mainline and people believe it is growth because we are being told that by some at ACPA and the company.

I hope you will look a little closer sportingrifle.
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Ratherbe
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by Ratherbe »

Yes but you’re obviously excluding rouge. However, a lot of pilots are there by choice and some of our highest paid pilots are working there.

So including rouge as of Dec 31st:

2006 - 199 fins
2011 - 205 fins
2017 - 224 fins

More importantly, pilot jobs based on crew manning (11-03 and 18-03):

2011 - 2,950
2018 - 4,003

So, based on these numbers maybe ACPA is not doing such a bad job on creating more jobs and ones with higher pay? I’m not saying criticism is not due but not in the area of job creation.

Will ALPA do a better job protecting our scope?
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sportingrifle
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by sportingrifle »

Ratherbe...

Exactly my point, thank you.
I was too lazy to dig up the numbers. And it is not only the quantity of jobs, but the quality of life associated with them.

Cheers sportingrifle
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altiplano
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by altiplano »

If course I'm excluding the LCC!

The deal sold to us last year wasn't growth. It was Mainline growth...

We "agreed" growth above 50 LCC fins in exchange for proportional Mainline growth, yet all we're seeing is LCC growth and Mainline reductions because it was a deception.

"Highest paid"

Because they work more? You're sounding like a Westjet pilot there... and the idea of some Rouge Captain making a pile is an outlier... it isn't the norm.

... and it's certainly not by the hour...

... and it's skewed because the LCC takes much of the most productive flying...

"Quality of life"

... you mean the socialized schedule?
... the CARs work rules?
... the 'expectation' to pick up extra flying?
... the 'expectation' to extend duty days?

Fig that.

I wish we had a deal so you could sign and stay at the LCC if you think it's better.

If you don't start sticking up for Mainline there will be not much left when you're ready to come back.
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atphat
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by atphat »

altiplano wrote: Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:58 pm If course I'm excluding the LCC!

The deal sold to us last year wasn't growth. It was Mainline growth...

We "agreed" growth above 50 LCC fins in exchange for proportional Mainline growth, yet all we're seeing is LCC growth and Mainline reductions because it was a deception.

"Highest paid"

Because they work more? You're sounding like a Westjet pilot there... and the idea of some Rouge Captain making a pile is an outlier... it isn't the norm.

... and it's certainly not by the hour...

... and it's skewed because the LCC takes much of the most productive flying...

"Quality of life"

... you mean the socialized schedule?
... the CARs work rules?
... the 'expectation' to pick up extra flying?
... the 'expectation' to extend duty days?

Fig that.

I wish we had a deal so you could sign and stay at the LCC if you think it's better.

If you don't start sticking up for Mainline there will be not much left when you're ready to come back.
sigh.....

shades of 2012. Not a single pilot at Rouge is forced to be there. Not one.

The "flying" is the companies. Not any pilots. Not any fleet. Hating Rouge does nothing.

The growth ratios were indeed bullish#t. Blame ACPA. Not the company. Not Rouge.

Would you not agree that Rouge gave the company the ability to fight WJ? Sunwing? Trasnsat?

Should AC give up that market share and be less competitive so you can do productive turns? That's an honest question.

I remember years ago a guy couldn't stop talking about his "daddys" airline. My dad this....my dad that.... barf.

Things change. Grow....Adapt. A healthy competitive AC is good for every employee.

Your hate for Rouge is palpable and tired. Move on
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Lightchop
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by Lightchop »

shades of 2012. Not a single pilot at Rouge is forced to be there. Not one.
I don't believe that.

If everyone wanted out, there aren't enough "mainline" jobs.

What about a new hire who picked last and got the 319? Or do they not count because they should be "happy to even have a job at AC."
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atphat
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by atphat »

Lightchop wrote: Sun Oct 14, 2018 8:31 pm
shades of 2012. Not a single pilot at Rouge is forced to be there. Not one.
I don't believe that.

If everyone wanted out, there aren't enough "mainline" jobs.

What about a new hire who picked last and got the 319? Or do they not count because they should be "happy to even have a job at AC."
Believe what you want. Look at the bids. It's self explanatory.
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fish4life
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by fish4life »

sportingrifle wrote: Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:21 pm Lightchop....that is a pretty interesting comment.

I worked at a connector airline many years ago and experienced ALPA leadership. Trying to be all things to all groups, while in fact letting down their most vulnerable members was sad to watch. Made me think that I wouldn't want to be part of a merger between two ALPA represented airlines. I had an unnerving feeling that my future would be decided in a back room in Hearndon Virginia by a "couple of good ol' boys over a bottle of scotch." ACPA isn't perfect, but at least it is only accountable to one pilot group and if we don't like the way it is being run, we can (and did) vote those in charge out and replace them.

I also just found out that ALPA Canada at the 11th hour decided to support the proposed flight duty time regulation amendments - the proposed regulations that ACPA has been trying to bring about much needed improvements to for many years. If a pilots union can't get that right, what's the point, pretty much everything else is more complex and difficult.

I think I'll vote to stay with ACPA, they haven't done everything perfectly but on balance have done a far better job and are far more accountable than ALPA to date. Just my $0.02.

sportingrifle
If 2 ALPA airlines merge ALPA actually steps away and let’s the 2 groups figure out how they want to do it. Canadian North and First Air as an example.

If ACPA cared about fatigue they’d change the slave labour Reserve system they have instead of just “let the new guys deal with it”
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altiplano
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by altiplano »

atphat wrote: Sun Oct 14, 2018 8:11 pm
altiplano wrote: Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:58 pm If course I'm excluding the LCC!

The deal sold to us last year wasn't growth. It was Mainline growth...

We "agreed" growth above 50 LCC fins in exchange for proportional Mainline growth, yet all we're seeing is LCC growth and Mainline reductions because it was a deception.

"Highest paid"

Because they work more? You're sounding like a Westjet pilot there... and the idea of some Rouge Captain making a pile is an outlier... it isn't the norm.

... and it's certainly not by the hour...

... and it's skewed because the LCC takes much of the most productive flying...

"Quality of life"

... you mean the socialized schedule?
... the CARs work rules?
... the 'expectation' to pick up extra flying?
... the 'expectation' to extend duty days?

Fig that.

I wish we had a deal so you could sign and stay at the LCC if you think it's better.

If you don't start sticking up for Mainline there will be not much left when you're ready to come back.
sigh.....

shades of 2012. Not a single pilot at Rouge is forced to be there. Not one.

The "flying" is the companies. Not any pilots. Not any fleet. Hating Rouge does nothing.

The growth ratios were indeed bullish#t. Blame ACPA. Not the company. Not Rouge.

Would you not agree that Rouge gave the company the ability to fight WJ? Sunwing? Trasnsat?

Should AC give up that market share and be less competitive so you can do productive turns? That's an honest question.

I remember years ago a guy couldn't stop talking about his "daddys" airline. My dad this....my dad that.... barf.

Things change. Grow....Adapt. A healthy competitive AC is good for every employee.

Your hate for Rouge is palpable and tired. Move on
Nice strawman attempt.

Your lack of comprehension on what I'm saying is palpable. I'm not hating on Rouge, just stating the facts that surround it's existence. It's there, it was forced on us, so we need to manage it within our contract appropriately.

But we're not...

I'm tired of the way some things are being misrepresented, I'm speaking to the fallacies that are being perpetuated, and that some people seem to believe.

It was stated in this thread by Sportingrifle:
"Rouge growth is conditional to Mainline growth."

And that's indeed what we were sold/told... but of course it's demonstrably FALSE.

'Ratherbe' states regarding growth:
"But you're excluding Rouge"...

Of course I am... I was responding to Sport', and that's the point, Mainline growth in exchange for Rouge was what we were sold/told, but it hasn't happened... Mainline shrinks... Rouge grows... FACT.

AC Pilots need to know that, lots of guys think Mainline is growing! Yet we are a shadow of the pre:Rouge fleet plan at Mainline, let alone taking the confirmed orders into account that we had. That's a fact.

"The growth ratios were indeed bullish#t. Blame ACPA."

This thread IS ACPA vs. ALPA isn't it? I do blame them. Or more accurately the NC and MEC and CEO.

I'll take it one step further...
I blame those perpetuating the falsehoods and those who cannot criticallly analyze what we are being given, or read deeper into the issues and understanding what they are voting on.

Would you not agree that Rouge gave the company the ability to fight WJ? Sunwing? Trasnsat?

The B-scale pilot contact didn't do it... The seat density did.

Should AC give up that market share and be less competitive so you can do productive turns? That's an honest question.

False dilemma? These things don't correlate. Besides I don't bid big turns... more a keep it easy, multi-day kinda-guy and fly my block.

The "flying" is the companies. Not any pilots. Not any fleet. Hating Rouge does nothing.

Again your argument doesn't stand up and has no correlation. The flying is owned by AC Pilots under the provisions of our Scope. It has nothing to do with "hating Rouge" which as I said I do not. I only want the truth told when guys like you want to blow smoke.

I remember years ago a guy couldn't stop talking about his "daddys" airline. My dad this....my dad that.... barf.

Things change. Grow....Adapt. A healthy competitive AC is good for every employee.


I'd certainly take his Daddy's paycheque and industry leading contract... What do you have? Straight up lower pay rates than what we earned 15 years ago. Lost scope.
Lost pension. Worse work conditions. A contract that is so so so far below our Legacy peers.

Is that "growing and adapting"? Is that the "change" you want?

I agree a healthy competitive AC is good, but you don't have to keep caving in on Scope and diminishing Mainline to have it.

You don't have to keep spreading falsehoods and arguing fallacy after fallacy as you do.

LCC this, LCC that, growth, highest paid, better lifestyle... talk about BARF...

I want facts. You're offering none.
I want accurate representation. ACPA hasn't been providing that.

I want AC Pilots to end the apathy and trust and understand what is happening, to realize how our contract is being raped and start standing up for it.
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Lt. Daniel Kaffee
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by Lt. Daniel Kaffee »

A contract that is so so so far below our Legacy peers.
Please explain which peers those are??

(Don't use US legacy airlines, apples v oranges)
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FL007
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by FL007 »

Lt. Daniel Kaffee wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:13 pm
A contract that is so so so far below our Legacy peers.
Please explain which peers those are??

(Don't use US legacy airlines, apples v oranges)
This is the only quote you can argue, because the simplest argument you can think of is there are no other legacy airlines in Canada.

There are no apples vs apples comparisons in Canadian aviation, the only comparable airline to AC is American legacy carriers. Scope of flying is comparable, fleet, experience levels, why can't they be compared?
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RVR6000
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by RVR6000 »

Let’s we forget....86% voted YES for this contract. Now everyone is crying about it, no one forced this on us.

Subsequently we approved the reopener with a 58% Yes vote. Don’t blame the union, the membership has to own-up.

It’s surprising what a 10k signing bonus can buy you.
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altiplano
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by altiplano »

RVR6000 wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:44 pm Let’s we forget....86% voted YES for this contract. Now everyone is crying about it, no one forced this on us.

Subsequently we approved the reopener with a 58% Yes vote. Don’t blame the union, the membership has to own-up.

It’s surprising what a 10k signing bonus can buy you.
As I said, I take the blame one step further... but I do blame the sales job on ACPA.

86% voted for a hard, non-arbitratable, LCC cap and 10K.

How's that hard cap on LCC growth doing now?

53% voted for linked growth but didn't read the fine print... not to mention it was for a pension that costs our members more and it seems now very few actually wanted...

Where's that linked growth now? LCC adds 6 fins and Mainline reduces fins.

"Do you think we can do better in 2016?"

"Do you think we can do better in arbitration?"

Scare tactics. How stupid are we?
Lt. Daniel Kaffee wrote: Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:13 pm
A contract that is so so so far below our Legacy peers.
Please explain which peers those are??

(Don't use US legacy airlines, apples v oranges)
What should I use? Transat? Westjet? Sunwing? That's an apple to tennis shoe comparison.

At least apples and oranges both grow on trees, are found next to each other in the grocery store, and alternate days in my kids lunch.

Why wouldn't you use US carriers? Because Jalmer or KV told you not to? Our contract and pay to be roughly par with them. We even led them at times... what happened?

Only reason they don't want to look at those carriers is because it shows just how bad a job we've done.

We are the largest foreign carrier operating in the US, and are ahead of some reasonably large American carriers in presence in some of the largest American markets.

US aside Western nation network/alliance/legacy carriers are our comparators.

Pick another country of you want... Lufthansa, Air France, Cathay, BA... We lag.
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RVR6000
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by RVR6000 »

Can we do better in 2016?

Better than 2%, where is the downside. Maybe they’ll only offer 1% :roll:

When they hired a PR firm for the sell job something didn’t seem right. We’re too predictable and guiable, Bens slide show stole the show, look where he is now.

If we stayed with FOS at least it had the 50 Fin LCC protection. Those 787 deliveries where coming anyways, and the options never got excerised.

I voted no for the 10 year deal and the reopener, but I’m tired of the all complainers. ALPA won’t undo this contract or get us a new contract till 2024, so no point paying higher dues till then.
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Ratherbe
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by Ratherbe »

I read the proposed amendments to ALPA’s Constituition and it looks like ACPA will have a seat on the Board of Directors but no vote. Looks like they want us in but don’t want any meaningful input on how things are decided in HQ.
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altiplano
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by altiplano »

Ratherbe wrote: Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:11 am I read the proposed amendments to ALPA’s Constituition and it looks like ACPA will have a seat on the Board of Directors but no vote. Looks like they want us in but don’t want any meaningful input on how things are decided in HQ.
You read that wrong.

1. Immediate Group A carrier status for AC with an EVP on the ALPA executive council.

We get our own seat and vote at the big table. Just like Delta/United/Fedex.

I think this is what you are misinterpreting, and it's seperate from the above:

2. Roll call voting now on the Canada Board. No more one airline, one vote, and ALPA Canada Board officers won't register a vote.

That means on Canada Board issues the MEC for the various airlines vote their airline, and the number of members at the airline register the weight of their vote.

For example, using rough round numbers:
Say 10,000 Canadian pilots from 15 airlines. AC's MEC representing 4000 pilots register 40% of the vote, Westjet's 2000 pilots register 20%, Bearskin's 75 pilots register 0.75%... I understand that previously each airline had 1 vote, and the Board officers had 1 vote.
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rudder
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by rudder »

Group A EVP status is based on dues revenue. Apparently Alaska and JetBlue pilots will be getting an EVP representative as well.

The existence of the Canada Board is unique and is a direct function of the 1997 CALPA/ALPA Merger. Changes have and continue to be made to the function and rules governing the Canada Board.

The 47th Bienniel ALPA BOD is underway and I presume that the ACPA/ALPA Merger is an agenda item.
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altiplano
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by altiplano »

rudder wrote: Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:29 am Group A EVP status is based on dues revenue. Apparently Alaska and JetBlue pilots will be getting an EVP representative as well.
Correct. Dues or membership.

$10,000,000 or 4000 members. The ALPA constitution is also being amended to reflect equivalence USD vs. CAD so exchange rate losses don't penalize Canadian airlines in this calculation if applicable.
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rudder
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by rudder »

Thanks for the further clarification.

Regardless, I hope that the AC pilots seriously evaluate the benefits of ALPA membership. It isn’t about an EVP seat. It is about being part of the largest professional pilot organization in the world and working with your peers to advance the profession both locally and across the entire North American spectrum.

ALPA isn’t perfect. ACPA isn’t perfect. But look at the resources and access to peers that comes with being part of a 61,000 strong pilot organization with further substantial global ties. The AC pilots have a lot to offer and ALPA will also benefit from their inclusion under the ALPA banner.

Having both the WJ and AC pilots wearing ALPA lanyards and membership pins will send a strong message to other non-ALPA CDN airline pilots about the best vehicle for professional representation.
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