Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

[Skyhunter]

So my question,

Lets say AC decides to buy and merge into our ops another ALPA airline ....... say Transat (don't know if they are ALPA but assuming they were)

Under ACPA..... what would happen with my seniority ref the Transat guys coming aboard,

Under ALPA...... same question,

Are the answers different? I don't know, but would like to cause that might have a large impact on what I support!

[rudder]

So my question,

Lets say AC decides to buy and merge into our ops another ALPA airline ....... say Transat (don't know if they are ALPA but assuming they were)

Under ACPA..... what would happen with my seniority ref the Transat guys coming aboard,

Under ALPA...... same question,

Are the answers different? I don't know, but would like to cause that might have a large impact on what I support!

Under ALPA, it would be ALPA Merger Policy (most recent version).

It is available on line. No prescribed outcome. No prescribed formula. Simply factors to be considered without assignment of priority and not considered a limiting list of factors that may be submitted by either party. Arbitration panel is comprised of 3 arbitrators so no rogue outcome.

There are several results out there using the current policy. UAL/CAL. VX/AS.

[TFTMB heavy]

So my question,

Lets say AC decides to buy and merge into our ops another ALPA airline ....... say Transat (don't know if they are ALPA but assuming they were)

Under ACPA..... what would happen with my seniority ref the Transat guys coming aboard,

Under ALPA...... same question,

Are the answers different? I don't know, but would like to cause that might have a large impact on what I support!

Air Transat pilots are ALPA.

I've made the prediction that if AC pilots join ALPA it will only be a matter of time before AC buys Transat.

[skypirate88]

So my question,

Lets say AC decides to buy and merge into our ops another ALPA airline ....... say Transat (don't know if they are ALPA but assuming they were)

Under ACPA..... what would happen with my seniority ref the Transat guys coming aboard,

Under ALPA...... same question,

Are the answers different? I don't know, but would like to cause that might have a large impact on what I support!

Air Transat pilots are ALPA.

I've made the prediction that if AC pilots join ALPA it will only be a matter of time before AC buys Transat.

That's quite the prediction, a while very off topic I'd be interested to hear your reasoning.

[rudder]

So my question,

Lets say AC decides to buy and merge into our ops another ALPA airline ....... say Transat (don't know if they are ALPA but assuming they were)

Under ACPA..... what would happen with my seniority ref the Transat guys coming aboard,

Under ALPA...... same question,

Are the answers different? I don't know, but would like to cause that might have a large impact on what I support!

Air Transat pilots are ALPA.

I've made the prediction that if AC pilots join ALPA it will only be a matter of time before AC buys Transat.

That's quite the prediction, a while very off topic I'd be interested to hear your reasoning.

I am curious as well.

With a market cap south of $300MM Transat AT is easily affordable for AC even with a 25% incentive premium tacked on to the latest stock price. Having said that, not sure either the AT shareholders or Board are willing sellers.

What is more relevant to AC is whether what it is they are buying will add assets, revenue, businesses, or market share that is worth the expenditure.

Also curious what the debt is on the Transat AT balance sheet (too lazy to go look).

[aerodude]

Air Transat pilots are ALPA.

I've made the prediction that if AC pilots join ALPA it will only be a matter of time before AC buys Transat.

We pilots are just a small (very small) part of a large business, we are not as important as we think we are, in terms of costs.
Management's decision to merge or buy a business is not affected by what union the pilots have.


ACPA may have thought AC pilots make or break the company and made sure re openers were "cost neutral". It was then quite comical to see AC and other partners up the offer by 100 million when aeroplan initially refused the first offer to be brought out.

[Lightchop]

So my question,

Lets say AC decides to buy and merge into our ops another ALPA airline ....... say Transat (don't know if they are ALPA but assuming they were)

Under ACPA..... what would happen with my seniority ref the Transat guys coming aboard,

Under ALPA...... same question,

Are the answers different? I don't know, but would like to cause that might have a large impact on what I support!

Air Transat pilots are ALPA.

I've made the prediction that if AC pilots join ALPA it will only be a matter of time before AC buys Transat.

AC buying Jazz and Westjet. Confirmed.

[TFTMB heavy]

Air Transat pilots are ALPA.

I've made the prediction that if AC pilots join ALPA it will only be a matter of time before AC buys Transat.

That's quite the prediction, a while very off topic I'd be interested to hear your reasoning.

I am curious as well.

With a market cap south of $300MM Transat AT is easily affordable for AC even with a 25% incentive premium tacked on to the latest stock price. Having said that, not sure either the AT shareholders or Board are willing sellers.

What is more relevant to AC is whether what it is they are buying will add assets, revenue, businesses, or market share that is worth the expenditure.

Also curious what the debt is on the Transat AT balance sheet (too lazy to go look).

For the reasons listed above and also because of the greatly reduced risk of a major labour dispute with the biggest unionized groups in the company being under the same umbrellas, FAs with CUPE and pilots with ALPA. I was told by a very reliable source that AC wanted a 10 year deal with it's pilots to show investors some labour relations stability. The dispute that resulted form the acquisition of Canadian is not one that should be repeated.

So for all of those reasons plus the distribution network Transat has built overseas I have made this prediction.

[Rowdy]

You're more likely to see AC purchase all of its regionals, merge them, create tension and break up any unity amongst the mec's, essentially turning the groups against each other like they did last time.. then sell them off again a few years later.

What do you think they're currently doing with GGN and soon SKR (when they start towards a proper CBA)??

Transat? laughable.

[TFTMB heavy]

You're more likely to see AC purchase all of its regionals, merge them, create tension and break up any unity amongst the mec's, essentially turning the groups against each other like they did last time.. then sell them off again a few years later.

What do you think they're currently doing with GGN and soon SKR (when they start towards a proper CBA)??

Transat? laughable.

I find your idea laughable also since it creates labour dispute. I guess time will tell and we could also both be wrong.

[rudder]

You're more likely to see AC purchase all of its regionals, merge them, create tension and break up any unity amongst the mec's, essentially turning the groups against each other like they did last time.. then sell them off again a few years later.

What do you think they're currently doing with GGN and soon SKR (when they start towards a proper CBA)??

Transat? laughable.

I find your idea laughable also since it creates labour dispute. I guess time will tell and we could also both be wrong.

Actually, with continued Express employee unionization, possible labour disruptions (no, the Minister will not intervene at operators who have small fleets and limited flights), and inevitable cost increases at GGN and SKR it would make sense for AC to encourage CHR to acquire either GGN, SKR, or both and see them merged in to Jazz.

Any requisite representation vote would likely be skipped by the CIRB due to relative size and existing representation within the relevant bargaining units. Jazz collective agreements are closed. No strike. No lockout. Fixed labour costs and nominal increases to 2025.

No cash outlay required from AC. Jazz already has the infrastructure to run the entire Express network. Dispatch. Scheduling. Maintenance (including heavy checks). Ability to finance aircraft acquisition and fleet renewal at Express on the CHR balance sheet.

This does not exclude the possibility that AC may want to acquire Transat AT with a view to putting more pressure on Sunwing Travel and WJ Vacations in the packaged tour business as well as adding significant lift over the North Atlantic.

Any strategic plan worth its salt is constantly under review and, if necessary, revision. I suspect that is the case at AC so the 2010/2015/2020/2025 plan is likely constantly evolving. Nobody’s crystal ball is ever 100% accurate.

[Ratherbe]

Thanks for clarifying the BOD vote. It does say the ALPA Canada President sits on the HQ Board as a non voting member. Is there a EVP position as well? If so that could be filled by a majority vote of the ALPA-c Board or by roll call? Let’s say the largest group had a real issue with a candidate for that position so called for a roll call vote. Without 50% that could be refused by the ALPA-c Board. Even if a roll call was called then the largest group still requires support of likely the other largest group. This all seems very similar to CALPA in 1995.
Having said that, pilot groups need to work together and respect each other’s concerns. At CALPA, the AC pilots did not feel that their concerns were being addressed by the other groups especially the other large group. AC pilots will have to know that they can’t bully the ALPA-c Board like Trump and will likely have to be prepared to accommodate.

[altiplano]

Thanks for clarifying the BOD vote. It does say the ALPA Canada President sits on the HQ Board as a non voting member. Is there a EVP position as well? If so that could be filled by a majority vote of the ALPA-c Board or by roll call? Let’s say the largest group had a real issue with a candidate for that position so called for a roll call vote. Without 50% that could be refused by the ALPA-c Board. Even if a roll call was called then the largest group still requires support of likely the other largest group. This all seems very similar to CALPA in 1995.
Having said that, pilot groups need to work together and respect each other’s concerns. At CALPA, the AC pilots did not feel that their concerns were being addressed by the other groups especially the other large group. AC pilots will have to know that they can’t bully the ALPA-c Board like Trump and will likely have to be prepared to accommodate.

It's a good question. I think there are some things getting murky in the way the information is presented.

Currently ALL Canadian ALPA members are in Group C. Group C elects 1 EVP to the ALPA executive council.

For this reason, currently only Group C airlines comprise of the Canada Board, and the Group C EVP also sits as defacto ALPA-Canada President.

But Group C, and ALPA-C are actually not the same thing.

We would sit in our own, as a Group A carrier with our own EVP, but as a Canadian airline we will also be a part of the Canada Board.

The ALPA by-law/constitution amendments specify that the Group C EVP will no longer be ALPA-C President.

Here is the relevant amendment:

Third, Article XXII would be amended to separate the office of ALPA Canada President from the office of Group C Executive Vice President (currently the same person holds both roles), and to lengthen the terms for
all ALPA Canada Board officers to four years.

The Group A/B/C EVPs have a voting seat on the ALPA executive council - not the separately elected ALPA-C President, elected by roll call vote by all Canadian airlines whether Group A or C.

[Rowdy]

You're more likely to see AC purchase all of its regionals, merge them, create tension and break up any unity amongst the mec's, essentially turning the groups against each other like they did last time.. then sell them off again a few years later.

What do you think they're currently doing with GGN and soon SKR (when they start towards a proper CBA)??

Transat? laughable.

I find your idea laughable also since it creates labour dispute. I guess time will tell and we could also both be wrong.

Thats the whole premise of the theory. Or have Chorus buy GGN or SKR etc. merge and create strife. As someone else stated, it would make sense. Jazz is locked til 2025 for cost. GGN's and SKR could skyrocket. Keep the costs down. Keep the pilots fighting themselves. They want dispute and chaos, so long as it doesn't interfere with their flights.

AC employs many bright minds that look for ways to control cost. They are way way ahead of us, the uneducated pilot group. Why did they scare both groups into 10 year cost neutral contracts? They knew the retirements and global expansion were coming. Its also why they wanted the age of retirement pushed to +65. Who do you think was vocal and motivated politically to change the ATPL requirements. Pretty good timing. Control the supply of pilots while the demand increases. Negating an increase in cost. Simply lower the bar and extend the working life of the current group.

Why don't we go above AC and force the hands within out government from a safety standpoint? MANDATE an ATPL for all 705 aircraft and positions. Mandate tougher and more stringent flight and duty time regs. That in itself would change the market quickly.

ACPA and it's small membership has no political power. ACPA based on its size also does not have the finances. ACPA based on it's history and directives does not (until recently) contribute to discussion with other pilot groups in the effort of bringing the whole industry up and forward.

A move to ALPA would bring that unity. The discussion. The political clout. Who has the better voice, 3800 ac pilots? or 10,000 across the country within multiple companies and +60,000 across north america?

[CanadianEh]

Well said Rowdy

[Victory]

While I'm not a fan of ACPA it strikes me that a lot of the people supporting the switch to ALPA are not actually Air Canada pilots. Are they after making things better for Air Canada pilots, or hoping to get a piece of what Air Canada pilots have for themselves by making a more level playing field.

[Lightchop]

Well personally aside from pay which is to be expected I have it better than AC pilots in many ways contractually. So not sure what you mean by that.

I'm just happy to see the large pilot groups all coming under one umbrella. It will inevitably make it easier to be one voice. That is, if AC wants to be part of the bigger picture.

[DanWEC]

Since it's within the unions' realm to dictate scope, I wonder if it's a possibility for ALPA (If chosen) to mandate that all subcontract flying on the Express end be done by ALPA airlines, which is now all the Express carriers, including Sky.
This would be a huge deal, and could prevent someone else setting up shop and undercutting everyone else.

[altiplano]

AC pilots used to hold those keys as Jazz was the only approved teir 2 carrier. The TA1 crew and a dubious survey put an end to that and we gave it away.

To get it back would cost AC pilots and I imagine the company would say that it's a "no go item" anyway...

[Ratherbe]

Actually Air Nova, Air Ontario, Air Alliance, NWT, and AirBC were the approved regionals when the scope language was written. It was done to protect mainline jobs not to give Jazz an upper hand in negotiations after they were merged.

As for ALPA, what have they done for their regionals in the USA? Have the mainline groups negotiated ALPA-only agreements for their regionals?