aerobod wrote: ↑Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:38 am
Bottom line for me is that facts are presented in a realistic manner with supporting data and analysis to back an argument, as opposed to opinion being represented as fact, without anything to back it up. This is a good description of where the US population has descended to in critical thinking skills, hopefully the rest of the world doesn’t follow too far:
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/terry-ne ... 26718.html
But Aerobod - this is my issue with you presenting your figures as 'facts' You were responding to my statement of
One doesn't have to wonder out loud why salaries and benefits here are the worst in the first world when Canada
with your comment:
Base salary in Canada for pilots doesn’t seem to be that far off compared with many first world countries
Canada $121,408
You then followed up that you were presenting facts and others were presenting as feelings. I have worked in many countries as a pilot earning a salary, and know what it is on the ground. I would not consider, my experience, my feelings at all. Certainly being the subject of a huffington post, aimed at university snowflakes, with no experience. I mean, half of your argument is based upon experience and you're not even a pilot. Moving on....
Digging into it further, you then went on to state "My analysis that determined a minimum average of $
109K [for westjet]" and "Air Canada will be at least $
120K based" two of the highest paid companies in Canada, the average between to two figures
you provided is $114.5k a year. Taking into account the rest of the 705 operators Westjet and Air Canada make up about 60% according to airlinepilotcentral.com (which numbers are outdated but probably give an idea of the proportions) pilot number figures.
This means that 40% of 705 pilots work outside of WJ/AC. Lets assume (I know, but best we can do) that the average of the rest of those companies salaries are 80% of the top two (which I think is very gracious, considering the salaries of the regional.
so 80% of 114.5k is 91k
Proportionally the average for these figures would be $105.1k for 705 in Canada. this is 87.5% of your 'fact' well outside acceptable statistical variation for your data. I would proffer that this would show that your data is not
fact Lets face it, even the numbers you offered for two of the highest airlines was below your 'fact'
Lets also revisit the argument in hand.
Base salary in Canada for pilots doesn’t seem to be that far off compared with many first world countries.
Not corporate pilots, not airline pilots....
pilots.
You also linked to Airline Pilots on Salary Expert also talking about commercial airlines and commercial pilots a number of times.
Oxford English Dictionary
airline
NOUN
1An organization providing a regular public service of air transport on one or more routes.
I gave you OED, as I thought you would appreciate that being english. Look up any dictionary. Anyone in the Airline industry should know this. Lets look up the north american version:
Merriam-Webster
airline noun (1)
air·line | \-ˌlīn \
Definition of airline (Entry 1 of 2)
: an air transportation system including its equipment, routes, operating personnel, and management
Even more liberal than the English definition, this could include charter, survey anything that flies practically. So no, I don't accept your view on what an airline is.
If you want to go the legal route, Airline is 705 in Canada, but airline has no reference in the FAR's not part 91, 119 121, 135 or 145. Nor does it do so in many other countries. If we are comparing oranges to oranges, lets do so.
Also, Commercial Pilot. If we are compensated for our services as a pilot, we are a commercial pilot. Something confusing to the general public I know.
So what's my point?
1: you have used different verbiage throughout your narrative presenting them as facts when they are not. A average PILOT does not earn the figures your presented. Know your facts about the industry. It starts with industry definitions. Your mix of verbiage comes across as someone not intimate with the industry. I was talking pilots and you replied pilots.
2: You are basing your rather distant experience as working in IT in an airline in Canada as to what is happening in the world of pilot salaries (admit it you referenced your job plenty of times and even presented second hand discussions with pilots on business trips) then using statistics from a website that in no way can be accurate without having privy to personal information.
3:Even using your 705 benchmark you presented numbers that differed from the 'facts' you presented. Taking into account the other operators it fell well below your 'fact' of $120k.
4: You are not using facts. You are using statistics. As mark twain said, facts are stubborn but statistics are pliable. Don't present statistics as facts and then claim you have a moral high ground over someones experience and knowledge doing the job.
Now if we want to go toe to toe, we can compare Air Canada to Australia, two countries with similar land mass to population. Qantas to Air Canada, Westjet to Jetstar. Trust me you won't like them apples....