China_CAAC's Merged Threads

[sportingrifle]

"However, in my own opinion, airline jobs are structured to such a degree that after a few years of experience in the right seat one is, most of the time, ready for the left seat. Any time longer is usually unnecessary in terms on preparation and because of this, experience past this minimum counts for very little ...."

indieadventurer....That is what the management at my airline assumed for the last few years. They are now finding out that it is not the case to the point that we are having to limit our flight operations in some areas and provide significantly increased training in others. We have also seen increasing numbers of FO's failing to upgrade. They are now recognizing that there is value in hiring a person with 5000 hours in multiple types with some multi crew command time. Right about the time that those individuals are a little thin on the ground.

[cloak]

Clearly use of words like "scab" indicates lack of impartiality and objectivity, to render discussions a moot point.

However, if the point is defending the piloting profession against degradation, it could be easily argued that Encore and Jazz have done far more damage than Swoop ever can. The former by accepting far lower standards than the rest of the industry and the latter by introducing B scale for new hires. Jazz under the watchful eyes of ALPA no less!!

[mbav8r]

Clearly use of words like "scab" indicates lack of impartiality and objectivity, to render discussions a moot point.

However, if the point is defending the piloting profession against degradation, it could be easily argued that Encore and Jazz have done far more damage than Swoop ever can. The former by accepting far lower standards than the rest of the industry and the latter by introducing B scale for new hires. Jazz under the watchful eyes of ALPA no less!!

I don’t like to resort to this, but @#$! Off douchebag!

[Transonic]

On a larger scale this poses the question: Is piloting a profession like lawyers, doctors, or nurses whereby one is recognised for one's previous experience from one company to another; or is it a union-shop-job whereby one progresses based on one's seniority not necessarily merit?

Don't bother cloak, there are too many self depreciating pilots on here who for whatever reason want to argue that our job is unskilled and we are not worthy at all.

Worked all over the world, and will never understand this mentality that seems to thrive here.

The present system creates winners and losers. There are many who have received upgrades at AC and WS in their 30s. This is no different than other careers. You choose your own path.

Your remarks would sound similar to ex Lycos programmers lamenting how they should get those newly minted VP positions at Google; over all those junior gogglers!

[Transonic]

"However, in my own opinion, airline jobs are structured to such a degree that after a few years of experience in the right seat one is, most of the time, ready for the left seat. Any time longer is usually unnecessary in terms on preparation and because of this, experience past this minimum counts for very little ...."

indieadventurer....That is what the management at my airline assumed for the last few years. They are now finding out that it is not the case to the point that we are having to limit our flight operations in some areas and provide significantly increased training in others. We have also seen increasing numbers of FO's failing to upgrade. They are now recognizing that there is value in hiring a person with 5000 hours in multiple types with some multi crew command time. Right about the time that those individuals are a little thin on the ground.

I think indieadventurer is referring to a career time span of 40 years vs the initial 5-10yrs of your example. Eyebrow737 argues that a mid 50 year old, 25 000hr ex pat captain should have the chance to apply for Year 12 WS 737 CA. He argues they add significant, measurable value over the upgrading late 30s, Year 9 WS FO with 12000hrs. I think most believe the difference in value is not too significant.

Whereas a 55 year old neurosurgeon adds significantly more value than they did when they were a 40 year old working in a general role in the ER.

[Transonic]

Another point for Eyebrow.

As far as any WestJet pilot knows, not one Swoop OTS pilot has been denied a jumpseat. Likely this will never happen as the situation is being corrected. We are all WestJet pilots now.

Yet you boast you have denied two WS pilots a jumpseat.

Think about that.

[cloak]

Clearly use of words like "scab" indicates lack of impartiality and objectivity, to render discussions a moot point.

However, if the point is defending the piloting profession against degradation, it could be easily argued that Encore and Jazz have done far more damage than Swoop ever can. The former by accepting far lower standards than the rest of the industry and the latter by introducing B scale for new hires. Jazz under the watchful eyes of ALPA no less!!

I don’t like to resort to this, but @#$! Off douchebag!

This was not an attempt to draw an(other) outburst to show your bias, rather that a little bit of perspective is valuable. There is a difference between professional curiosity to gain understanding and develop experience for one's own life, and being a SD with comments to rally a mob! Those comments don't help the situation and don't help build bridges. To try to instigate WestJet pilots from outside to behave like an angry mob is not very noble. I'll be happy to delete your quote in this post when you withdraw your previous comments.

[privateer]

I noticed a pretty sad looking Swoopster at sim the other day. I guess he was doing is his FO ride after sitting in the left seat for most of the year. Welcome to the real world buddy.

[mbav8r]

Clearly use of words like "scab" indicates lack of impartiality and objectivity, to render discussions a moot point.

However, if the point is defending the piloting profession against degradation, it could be easily argued that Encore and Jazz have done far more damage than Swoop ever can. The former by accepting far lower standards than the rest of the industry and the latter by introducing B scale for new hires. Jazz under the watchful eyes of ALPA no less!!

I don’t like to resort to this, but @#$! Off douchebag!

This was not an attempt to draw an(other) outburst to show your bias, rather that a little bit of perspective is valuable. There is a difference between professional curiosity to gain understanding and develop experience for one's own life, and being a SD with comments to rally a mob! Those comments don't help the situation and don't help build bridges. To try to instigate WestJet pilots from outside to behave like an angry mob is not very noble. I'll be happy to delete your quote in this post when you withdraw your previous comments.

No need, I was not trying to instigate anybody but rather support their fight. To lump Jazz pilots amongst OTS swoop pilots is not only completely off base but also ignorant. The B scale you mentioned was implemented out of pure survival because of pilots undercutting Jazz, some of whom went to Swoop.
If you were to compare SR pilots to Swoop, I would support that rationale, Jazz pilots have gone on Strike multiple times and voted overwhelmingly to do so other times, only to have that undone by other greedy bastards skipping the que.
If you retract your comment about the damage caused by Jazz pilots, I’d be happy to retract my characterization of your comments.

[cloak]

Another point for Eyebrow.

As far as any WestJet pilot knows, not one Swoop OTS pilot has been denied a jumpseat. Likely this will never happen as the situation is being corrected. We are all WestJet pilots now.

Yet you boast you have denied two WS pilots a jumpseat.

Think about that.

This shows the damage that simple words can do in overzealous comments, especially from outside the organization, which amounts to an angry mob shouting various incantations. Yours a more mature attitude that brings better understanding and unity. Well done!

[schnitzel2k3]

"However, in my own opinion, airline jobs are structured to such a degree that after a few years of experience in the right seat one is, most of the time, ready for the left seat. Any time longer is usually unnecessary in terms on preparation and because of this, experience past this minimum counts for very little ...."

indieadventurer....That is what the management at my airline assumed for the last few years. They are now finding out that it is not the case to the point that we are having to limit our flight operations in some areas and provide significantly increased training in others. We have also seen increasing numbers of FO's failing to upgrade. They are now recognizing that there is value in hiring a person with 5000 hours in multiple types with some multi crew command time. Right about the time that those individuals are a little thin on the ground.

I think indieadventurer is referring to a career time span of 40 years vs the initial 5-10yrs of your example. Eyebrow737 argues that a mid 50 year old, 25 000hr ex pat captain should have the chance to apply for Year 12 WS 737 CA. He argues they add significant, measurable value over the upgrading late 30s, Year 9 WS FO with 12000hrs. I think most believe the difference in value is not too significant.

Whereas a 55 year old neurosurgeon adds significantly more value than they did when they were a 40 year old working in a general role in the ER.

Good way to look at it.

S.

[Bede]

Whereas a 55 year old neurosurgeon adds significantly more value than they did when they were a 40 year old working in a general role in the ER.

sorry, I don't understand this analogy. Sarcastic?

[Lightchop]

Clearly use of words like "scab" indicates lack of impartiality and objectivity, to render discussions a moot point.

However, if the point is defending the piloting profession against degradation, it could be easily argued that Encore and Jazz have done far more damage than Swoop ever can. The former by accepting far lower standards than the rest of the industry and the latter by introducing B scale for new hires. Jazz under the watchful eyes of ALPA no less!!

Yet somehow, when it comes down to the overall compensation package the "b scale" at Jazz is still light years better than Encore, GGN and yes, Sky Regional. Who's lowering the bar now?

[Donald]

At $110K/year, the DEC spot at Flair represents a status, pay, and social standing upgrade for the OTS swoopsters.

Seems like a win-win-win and a good move for the likes of tbaylx.

[digits_]

I noticed a pretty sad looking Swoopster at sim the other day. I guess he was doing is his FO ride after sitting in the left seat for most of the year. Welcome to the real world buddy.

What if he fails his FO ride, does he stay a captain?

[mbav8r]

At $110K/year, the DEC spot at Flair represents a status, pay, and social standing upgrade for the OTS swoopsters.

Seems like a win-win-win and a good move for the likes of tbaylx.

Based on his(tblaylx) post in the flair forum, I’m guessing he’s already applied.

[tbaylx]

At $110K/year, the DEC spot at Flair represents a status, pay, and social standing upgrade for the OTS swoopsters.

Seems like a win-win-win and a good move for the likes of tbaylx.

Based on his(tblaylx) post in the flair forum, I’m guessing he’s already applied.

As you so constantly demonstrate here pilots are able to post in the other forums where they aren't currently employed.

The OTS pilots at Swoop were hired for their experience and those who want to go elsewhere won't have any trouble finding work if they so choose.

[tbaylx]

.

[jjj]

The OTS Swoop pilots were hired because they answered the call with a minimum requirement met.

That’s it.

Not all succeeded and we’re washed out.

Hardly cream of the crop.

Do not boast Tbalx - you aren’t impressing anyone.

JJJ

[tbaylx]

The OTS Swoop pilots were hired because they answered the call with a minimum requirement met.

That’s it.

Not all succeeded and we’re washed out.

Hardly cream of the crop.

Do not boast Tbalx - you aren’t impressing anyone.

JJJ

The last people i'm trying to impress are the WJ pilots on here, i assure you. I couldn't care less what you think given all that has gone on. There are and were some damn good pilots/people hired to start the airline up. They won't have trouble finding work, hardly call that boasting, its a fact

Same as anywhere, Westjet and Swoop have some good, some average and some special

[7ECA]

No company that hires cut-rate scab labour for a job with promises of possible golden opportunities in the future, can be at all surprised when said cut-rate scab labour jumps ship at the first sign of difficulties.

[Hangry]

Tbaylx couldn’t care less what WJ pilots think of him “after all thats gone on”. LOL

It’s the WJ pilots fault I guess.

[munzil]

Tbaylx couldn’t care less what WJ pilots think of him “after all thats gone on”. LOL

It’s the WJ pilots fault I guess.

Yep, join a low cost company you become low cost pilots m. What did you expect?

Actually that question is rhetorical. I also don't really care. Along with the rest of Canadian aviation

[KAG]

Continuing this thread is like poking a guy who got KOd in a fight. It's pointless and just breeds bad blood. The wrongs are being righted, our CBA is due and at the point we'll see just how bad the damage is. Time will tell how the industry feels about their (origional DEC) time at swoop. Given the shortage of qualified pilots I doubt itll hurt much.
I hope we can all take somthing away from this: -
--Companies will play their games, dangle their carrots.
--it's not always worth a quick upgrade as your reputation weighs more then your log book.
And lastly given the favourable pilot shortage we can work together to actually try to improve our industry wide conditions. Dare to dream.
Fly safe all.

[cloak]

...As far as any WestJet pilot knows, not one Swoop OTS pilot has been denied a jumpseat. Likely this will never happen as the situation is being corrected. We are all WestJet pilots now.
...

Notwithstanding the continued clamour of a few at Jazz and Encore, it appears that possibly not everyone at WestJet shares this sentiment. Or is it that by situation being "corrected" it was meant that direct-hire pilots are being "punted" from their seats, as the author of this thread rejoiced?! It seems like focusing your attention in the wrong places still!