Mid-Air Collision Near Ottawa

[pelmet]

Only breaking news right now. Reported to be serious. Probably GA aircraft.

[ctmorawetz]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/p ... -1.4891149

[youhavecontrol]

Yeah, from the sounds of it, two GA aircraft... one an ultralight and the other something "larger" with two occupants.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/two-aircr ... -1.4162722

[tps8903]

Yeah, from the sounds of it, two GA aircraft... one an ultralight and the other something "larger" with two occupants.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/two-aircr ... -1.4162722

File photo. Cheyenne and a Cessna 150. Cheyenne diverted to YOW and landed safely. 150 crashed.

[Bede]

Yeah, from the sounds of it, two GA aircraft... one an ultralight and the other something "larger" with two occupants.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/two-aircr ... -1.4162722

Sorry, isn't the CTV footage of that ultralight that crashed in Ottawa a short time ago?

[chipmunk]

Yes, the red and white ultralight crashed Oct 16.
Media and their stock footage.
Sigh.

[youhavecontrol]

Man, that fooled me. I hate when they post sh*t that's not directly related to the event they're reporting.

[rookiepilot]

Reporters following this story:

Do you realize posting false pictures potentially hurts the families involved?

[rigpiggy]

Cheyenne 3 pics on cbc

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa

[rigpiggy]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/p ... -1.4891149

[JasonE]

Sounds like like the Piper low wing joined mid downwind and collided with a Cessna high wing from overhead. Sad day for all involved. Sad day for GA. Image of damaged gear on the Piper:

[PilotDAR]

I read a "Cessna and a Piper" collided. I always have a pang of empathy for pilots of each type when a low wing Piper and a high wing Cessna get in each other's blind spots. The CBC shows us a photo of a damaged Piper Cheyenne. Yeah, it's a low wing Piper, but they cruise along at a speed such that a Cessna [150] is not going to catch up to the Cheyenne and collide with it. The Cheyenne had to be moving a lot faster, and hopefully keeping a look out appropriate to it's speed relative to traffic which could be expected in the area of Carp. Back in the day, I used to fly a Cheyenne based at Buttonville. I always kept a super keen lookout when down below TRSA, 'cause I knew I was moving faster than nearly every other aircraft around me.

[FlyGy]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/o ... -1.4892081

From the article

'Somebody ran into the bottom of me,' pilot tells control tower

We all know who has right of way in the circuit. You're the pilot of a faster, higher aircraft. Who ran into whom?

[PilotDAR]

We all know who has right of way in the circuit. You're the pilot of a faster, higher aircraft. Who ran into whom?

My thought exactly....

[KAG]

This scenario plays out every few years, in various ways. It's sad, I truly feel for all those effected.
It's also a solid reminder to keep those procedures sharp, and your lookout sharper. Did the piper have tcas?, did the 150 have a transponder? were proper radio calls made. All these points need to be considered
Fly safe all.

[nbinont]

Condolences to all affected.

While maybe this isn't the best time or place to mention, I will anyways: I recently flew with a portable ADSB receiver and tablet that displayed traffic and taws traffic and alerts - it was quite impressive for the cost. Of course there are more proper panel installed systems - but the point is, we have some pretty good technology to help avoid collisions. I'm starting to think it is definitely worth it to spend the few bucks and get the equivalent of another set of eyes looking for traffic (and maybe convince people to update their transponders). Tragedies like this are always saddening.

[HiFlyChick]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/o ... -1.4892081

From the article

'Somebody ran into the bottom of me,' pilot tells control tower

We all know who has right of way in the circuit. You're the pilot of a faster, higher aircraft. Who ran into whom?

While it sounds straightforward, I wouldn't be too quick to point fingers - I was in a Navajo one time having just called and joined straight in to the downwind when a small single (can't recall the type) with an instructor and student onboard called joining overhead crosswind. I was peering intently and both of us were talking to each other but I just couldn't see him. He called that he had me in sight and that he was well ahead, and asked what my speed was. When I told him and that I still didn't have him in sight he said he would join in front of me, which he did and then promptly proceeded to grow larger in my windscreen as I closed with him, even at a speed well below what I had quoted.

I can see where we could've been in each others' blind spots if he had've reached the downwind spot I was on a few seconds later....

[golden hawk]

https://www.wingsmagazine.com/news/carp ... gn=181106W

TSB update on mid-air collision over Carp airport

November 06, 2018


Written by Wings Staff


The Transportation Safety Board of Canada today held a conference call to provide more details about the mid-air collision that took place between a Piper PA-42 Cheyenne III and a Cessna 150 in the airspace of Carp, Ontario, near Ottawa. The mid-air collision, which is the 10th recorded in Canada over the past 10 years, happened within the traffic pattern of Carp Airport, where both planes were registered

Beverley Harvey, a senior investigator with the Transportation Safety Board of Canada (TSB), explains a wing of the Cessna 150, with one person on board, was partially severed after the collision at around 10:10 am on November 4. The Cessna impacted the ground shortly after, resulting in a fire, and the pilot was fatally injured.

The second aircraft, a Piper PA-42 (Cheyenne III) with two occupants on board, was significantly damaged but able to fly to the Ottawa Macdonald–Cartier International Airport, where it landed at about 10:30 am. The aft fuselage, rudder, wings and main landing gear of the twin-engine Piper turboprop were damaged, but neither of its two occupants were injured in the incident.

Harvey explains, that after an initial TSB review of the weather, the Piper was approaching CARP Airport, which is just outside of Ottawa, with a visibility of 20 statute miles at the time of the accident, and there were few clouds in the area. While the Piper was arriving into Carp Aiport, TSB is still determining the orientation of the Cessna.

Neither of the aircraft were equipped with, nor were they required to carry, a cockpit voice recorder or a flight data recorder. The Cessna has been brought to the TSB Engineering Laboratory in Ottawa to help determine how the two aircraft came into contact. Harvey explains that by analyzing scratch marks and impact damage, investigators are hoping to get a more precise picture of the exact position of each aircraft at the time of impact, and what the impact geometry was.

Work at the site is completed, but the field phase of the investigation continues. In the coming days and weeks, investigators will review audio and radar data from NAV CANADA, which will assist in determining the exact nature of the collision. Harvey explains TSB will also review aircraft maintenance records, pilot training, qualifications and proficiency records. TSB will also examine Carp Airport operations, procedures, airspace design and designation.

Harvey emphasized it is important not to speculate or draw conclusions about the causes of occurrences, as there are often many factors that can contribute to an accident.

[goingnowherefast]

Many years ago, I was doing circuits in a plane with a bubble canopy. Turning final, at the direction of the control tower (class D), I couldn't find the other traffic for the life of me. He couldn't see me either. Looking ahead, left, right etc. Then I looked directly upwards and there's his wheels. He was 50' directly above me. No wonder he couldn't find me. After pointing this out, he overshot and I continued to land normally.

My point being, that sometimes, even in a controlled environment, airplanes hide in blind spots, or other locations where you least expect them to be. Keep your head on a swivel, use your radio; ears first and make the required radio calls clear and concise.

[FlySigi]

Condolences to all affected.

While maybe this isn't the best time or place to mention, I will anyways: I recently flew with a portable ADSB receiver and tablet that displayed traffic and taws traffic and alerts - it was quite impressive for the cost. Of course there are more proper panel installed systems - but the point is, we have some pretty good technology to help avoid collisions. I'm starting to think it is definitely worth it to spend the few bucks and get the equivalent of another set of eyes looking for traffic (and maybe convince people to update their transponders). Tragedies like this are always saddening.

The only problem with ADS-B is, Canada is not implementing it in January 2020. Therefor, any ADS-B receiver in Canada is pretty useless as Canada has no ADS-B ground stations. I have a portable Scout ADS-B receiver and used it extensively while flying in California, Oregon and Washington and it worked great. The only thing I see when I use it here in BC are other aircraft with ADS-B out installed, which are mostly airliners at this point.

[Tips Up]

The only problem with ADS-B is, Canada is not implementing it in January 2020. Therefor, any ADS-B receiver in Canada is pretty useless as Canada has no ADS-B ground stations. I have a portable Scout ADS-B receiver and used it extensively while flying in California, Oregon and Washington and it worked great. The only thing I see when I use it here in BC are other aircraft with ADS-B out installed, which are mostly airliners at this point.
[/quote]

Exactly. Which is why when I did a major panel upgrade I went with the Lynx transponder with active traffic surveillance. Any aircraft with a transponder signal are then picked up and come up on the lynx screen as well as the GTN. Not dependent on adsb. Costly? Yup. Worth it? Very much so. I can’t tell you how many times it’s picked up traffic, especially around training areas or coming in to join the circuit, that I had not seen or heard and directed my attention to that area. Best piece of new tech I put in.

[pelmet]

We all know who has right of way in the circuit. You're the pilot of a faster, higher aircraft. Who ran into whom?

My thought exactly....

I think that is all based on being aware of the other aircraft and its location. Difficult to know at this time what all the variables were in the accident.

It does seem a bit odd to me that one would tell ATC that they had a midair collision but not declare an emergency when asked by ATC if they were declaring one. You are almost guaranteed to have damage. I suspect an emergency was declared by ATC with emergency vehicles waiting anyways.

[Capt. Underpants]

The scariest close call I've had in an airplane was while doing night circuits at an uncontrolled airport in southern Ontario. We'd been in the circuit for over 30 minutes and had made all the required broadcasts on the MF. On final at about 100 ft AGL, I spotted the reflection of strobe lights coming up from the snow covered ground. I quickly remembered that our C150 didn't have strobes. I instinctively looked down and saw the wing of another aircraft below me. I took control from the student and did an immediate go-around, circled back around and landed. We soon learned the other aircraft was a locally owned C182. When I enquired, he admitted he'd done a straight in approach and hadn't made any calls on the MF. He said he never saw us but I suspect he gained on us on final as he was notorious for flying fast approaches and doing the late slow down addition of flaps. I looked in the cockpit and found that both radios were still tuned to the nearest tower frequency 20 miles away. He was lucky that my student was a young lady, otherwise he would have received an appropriately colorful tongue lashing.

[waterdog]

Having engaged in a recent FB discussion with the Ottawa based pilots I actually think the problem is a lot more basic than needing ADSB. What became evident in the discussion was that at CARP some pilots are talking to Terminal as they are approaching the airspace and others are doing circuits are on the appropriate ATF. All of this is very normal and happens all the time at all kinds of airports. The problem that became evident was that there is a lot of confusion on appropriate radio transmissions and when. Some pilots were adamant that the reporting obligation was 5 miles from the airport. This has been confused from what is required under CARS and as recommended in the AIM that you report 5 minutes out. Big difference. I think that given this accident and the fact the Buttonville is losing its tower and becoming a MF, Transport Canada would do well to hold some refresher courses on some basic radio calls and their requirements under the rules. Some pilots seem to be under the impression that if they are on with Terminal they have to stay with ATC and are under no obligation to make a radio call on the MF or ATF of the airport they are headed to. In a slow bug smasher this isn't often a problem, but when you mix in a faster twin or some faster planes this becomes a problem very very quickly. This is by no means a problem specific to CARP but I think an indication of a much bigger problem that we have forgotten some of the basics and some radio refresher is in order.

[jakeandelwood]

The scariest close call I've had in an airplane was while doing night circuits at an uncontrolled airport in southern Ontario. We'd been in the circuit for over 30 minutes and had made all the required broadcasts on the MF. On final at about 100 ft AGL, I spotted the reflection of strobe lights coming up from the snow covered ground. I quickly remembered that our C150 didn't have strobes. I instinctively looked down and saw the wing of another aircraft below me. I took control from the student and did an immediate go-around, circled back around and landed. We soon learned the other aircraft was a locally owned C182. When I enquired, he admitted he'd done a straight in approach and hadn't made any calls on the MF. He said he never saw us but I suspect he gained on us on final as he was notorious for flying fast approaches and doing the late slow down addition of flaps. I looked in the cockpit and found that both radios were still tuned to the nearest tower frequency 20 miles away. He was lucky that my student was a young lady, otherwise he would have received an appropriately colorful tongue lashing.

Wow, that's just plain scary.