Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

Topics related to accidents, incidents & over due aircraft should be placed in this forum.

Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore

aeroncasuperchief
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 257
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:54 pm

Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

Post by aeroncasuperchief »

"All I could see in the original photos was the front of the plane. Must have been an exciting ride for the lobsters - wiping out 4 landing gears and breaking the fuselage."


Shaken, not stirred! Must have had some Chinese ware on board to supply the local Walmart to make it a productive inbound ?
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
HiFlyChick
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 386
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:27 am

Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

Post by HiFlyChick »

swordfish wrote: Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:03 pm
HiFlyChick wrote: Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:21 pm [quote=Judging from the tire tracks off the end of the runway, it looks like the gear were all down
Sure does look like that, but where is the gear?? It's 8 feet high. They must be sunk into the mud.
I was wondering that myself - best guess is that it folded backwards but stayed attached for long enough that it's underneath the fuselage...? I can't imagine it would stay on (attached in the usual manner) and yet bury itself that far into the turf
---------- ADS -----------
 
A346Dude
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 190
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 12:22 pm

Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

Post by A346Dude »

Even with the “better” 1200 ft ceiling after the accident, a visual approach was completely out of the question as ATC minimums for a visual are much higher than 1200 ft (these minimums are not published). A contact approach would have been a legal option, but I will not comment as to the wisdom of a contact approach in a 747 under those conditions.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
JasonE
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 835
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2014 8:26 pm

Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

Post by JasonE »

Look for lobster on sale at Walmart this week, since they couldn't get to China timely!
---------- ADS -----------
 
"Carelessness and overconfidence are more dangerous than deliberately accepted risk." -Wilbur Wright
Pavese
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 217
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2007 10:26 am

Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

Post by Pavese »

HiFlyChick wrote: Fri Nov 09, 2018 8:52 pm
swordfish wrote: Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:03 pm
HiFlyChick wrote: Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:21 pm [quote=Judging from the tire tracks off the end of the runway, it looks like the gear were all down
Sure does look like that, but where is the gear?? It's 8 feet high. They must be sunk into the mud.
I was wondering that myself - best guess is that it folded backwards but stayed attached for long enough that it's underneath the fuselage...? I can't imagine it would stay on (attached in the usual manner) and yet bury itself that far into the turf
There is a lot of debris balled up around the aft end and in this photo you see one of the gear trucks at the very left:

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org ... 0a1b07.jpg

I think HFC is right, the rest is back there somewhere with the antenna array, lights and a few other things that'll have to be replaced.

The TSB photos don't show much of the gear:

https://flic.kr/p/NYmGtP

Even with their misfortune, the crew was really lucky they stopped where they did, if they had made it to the road the stop wouldn't have been quite as gentle. You don't see it but there's a fair slope down into the ditch between the fence & the road.

Image

D 8)
---------- ADS -----------
 
Pavese
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 217
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2007 10:26 am

Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

Post by Pavese »

C.W.E. wrote: Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:20 pm
All I could see in the original photos was the front of the plane. Must have been an exciting ride for the lobsters
Wouldn't they be picking up lobsters in Halifax, not delivering them?
Yup, the importer has an office at YHZ.

D 8)
---------- ADS -----------
 
ReserveTank
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 493
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:32 am

Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

Post by ReserveTank »

Gilles Hudicourt wrote: Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:28 am
tbayav8er wrote: Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:56 am but I wonder what the LNAV minimums are. ~8500 ft available for landing on 23 even with the construction and 18 kts on the nose as opposed to 7500' and no headwind
I checked the plates. There are many variables, don’t know what their equipment and ops specs allow. Plus, one would also need to see the Notams, in case these modified the published minimums.
Grapevine says that they weren't allowed RNAV per Ops Specs.
---------- ADS -----------
 
goingnowherefast
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1936
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:24 am

Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

Post by goingnowherefast »

I wonder if they'll eventually realize that GPS approaches are quite often the safest approach available. TC is making the industry less safe by the cumbersome process operators are required to undergo to gain GPS and LPV approach approval.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
rookiepilot
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4402
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:50 pm

Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

Post by rookiepilot »

Non commercial pilot's opinion:

Lots of room for an arrestor bed, seems to my eye.

Canada: Few of those beds I'm aware of. (any????)
Major runways without an ILS approach, and operator can't use RNAV. Heck, even LPV approaches aren't certainly everywhere-- yet.
ADS B? Happening or not?

Leading the way in aviation safety!
NOT.

See I don't always blame the airline --
---------- ADS -----------
 
Eric Janson
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1243
Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2007 10:44 am

Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

Post by Eric Janson »

rookiepilot wrote: Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:31 pm Non commercial pilot's opinion:

Lots of room for an arrestor bed, seems to my eye.

Canada: Few of those beds I'm aware of. (any????)
Major runways without an ILS approach, and operator can't use RNAV. Heck, even LPV approaches aren't certainly everywhere-- yet.
ADS B? Happening or not?

Leading the way in aviation safety!
NOT.

See I don't always blame the airline --
If the only useable approach has a tailwind component the exceeds the maximum then it's time to find another airport imho.

Unclear if landing performance was calculated but when this is marginal you have to be on speed and touch down at the correct point. High speed/long landing is a go-around.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Always fly a stable approach - it's the only stability you'll find in this business
User avatar
rookiepilot
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4402
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:50 pm

Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

Post by rookiepilot »

Eric Janson wrote: Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:21 pm
rookiepilot wrote: Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:31 pm Non commercial pilot's opinion:

Lots of room for an arrestor bed, seems to my eye.

Canada: Few of those beds I'm aware of. (any????)
Major runways without an ILS approach, and operator can't use RNAV. Heck, even LPV approaches aren't certainly everywhere-- yet.
ADS B? Happening or not?

Leading the way in aviation safety!
NOT.

See I don't always blame the airline --
If the only useable approach has a tailwind component the exceeds the maximum then it's time to find another airport imho.

Unclear if landing performance was calculated but when this is marginal you have to be on speed and touch down at the correct point. High speed/long landing is a go-around.
I get it, always pilots responsibility.

When I look at YHZ I don't see a world class airport, I see compromise.

Strange for an airport that regularly sees heavies landing there.

Why is this?

Does one fly into Dubai (I haven't looked) and 2 of 4 runways don't have an ILS? JFK?
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
HiFlyChick
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 386
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:27 am

Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

Post by HiFlyChick »

Putting in more ILSs at this point in time would be as foolish as TC deciding in the last few years to push SCDA approaches. Pre-GPS would've been the time to push SCDA, and pre-GPS would've been the time to install more ILSs (not that I necessarily agree that they should have more ILSs). If operators won't spend the money to upgrade their technology to stuff that's been around for decades, then they should expect to spend the money when their aircraft have to go to their alternate (that the pilot's didn't go to the alternate is another problem altogether).
---------- ADS -----------
 
Eric Janson
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1243
Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2007 10:44 am

Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

Post by Eric Janson »

rookiepilot wrote: Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:35 pm
Eric Janson wrote: Sat Nov 10, 2018 2:21 pm
rookiepilot wrote: Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:31 pm Non commercial pilot's opinion:

Lots of room for an arrestor bed, seems to my eye.

Canada: Few of those beds I'm aware of. (any????)
Major runways without an ILS approach, and operator can't use RNAV. Heck, even LPV approaches aren't certainly everywhere-- yet.
ADS B? Happening or not?

Leading the way in aviation safety!
NOT.

See I don't always blame the airline --
If the only useable approach has a tailwind component the exceeds the maximum then it's time to find another airport imho.

Unclear if landing performance was calculated but when this is marginal you have to be on speed and touch down at the correct point. High speed/long landing is a go-around.
I get it, always pilots responsibility.

When I look at YHZ I don't see a world class airport, I see compromise.

Strange for an airport that regularly sees heavies landing there.

Why is this?

Does one fly into Dubai (I haven't looked) and 2 of 4 runways don't have an ILS? JFK?
Agree with you about Halifax - the ILS should be on 32 imho. Adding a few thousand feet would be a good idea as well imho.

Dubai has ILS on all 4 runways.

JFK is a poor example - it's like a Third World Airport. Fly an offset VOR/DME approach for 22L.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Always fly a stable approach - it's the only stability you'll find in this business
User avatar
rookiepilot
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4402
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:50 pm

Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

Post by rookiepilot »

Eric Janson wrote: Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:24 am
Agree with you about Halifax - the ILS should be on 32 imho. Adding a few thousand feet would be a good idea as well imho.

Dubai has ILS on all 4 runways.

JFK is a poor example - it's like a Third World Airport. Fly an offset VOR/DME approach for 22L.
I'm thinking of Halifax weather too in my comments.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Cliff Jumper
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 180
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 8:22 am

Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

Post by Cliff Jumper »

Does it really make sense comparing Halifax to Dubai?

Halifax moves about 4m passengers a year, whereas Dubai moves 88m.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Old fella
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2385
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:04 am
Location: I'm retired. I don't want to'I don't have to and you can't make me.

Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

Post by Old fella »

HiFlyChick wrote: Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:54 pm Putting in more ILSs at this point in time would be as foolish as TC deciding in the last few years to push SCDA approaches. Pre-GPS would've been the time to push SCDA, and pre-GPS would've been the time to install more ILSs (not that I necessarily agree that they should have more ILSs). If operators won't spend the money to upgrade their technology to stuff that's been around for decades, then they should expect to spend the money when their aircraft have to go to their alternate (that the pilot's didn't go to the alternate is another problem altogether).
YHZ is my neck of the woods, although been away from the aviation business past number of years I thought ole Robert Stanfield International was adequately covered for approaches. It has 2 ILS which includes a CAT 11 perhaps a CAT111 there now- I don’t keep an update CAP. Also I thought each runway is served with a GPS approach that has WAAS LPV that supports vertical guidance down to 200ft again I may be wrong on that. I do know from yrs back NAV CAN upgraded the many ILS and there was no BC capability so GPS were designed with vertical guidance. I don’t think anybody can blame the airport nor NAV CAN if some airlines and operators do not have the necessary avionics to support what is available at YHZ.
---------- ADS -----------
 
tbaylx
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1193
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2004 6:30 pm

Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

Post by tbaylx »

ILS's are going the way of the ndb. Over the next number of years they will be phased out in favour of RNAV RNP approaches. If an airline chooses not to be RNAV capable that will be tantamount to only having an NDB approach available to you today. As pilot's if companies don't give you the necessary equipment to get in in certain weather conditions then that's what we have alternates for.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
rookiepilot
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4402
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:50 pm

Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

Post by rookiepilot »

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enginee ... tor_system

Over 100 installed in the US. Not aware of any in Canada.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
HiFlyChick
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 386
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:27 am

Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

Post by HiFlyChick »

Eric Janson wrote: Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:24 am Agree with you about Halifax - the ILS should be on 32 imho. Adding a few thousand feet would be a good idea as well imho...
Why would they spend all of that money on an ILS on 32, when the RNAV gets you down to 200 AGL?

In terms of extending the length, they just spent a bunch increasing the length of 23....
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Old fella
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2385
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:04 am
Location: I'm retired. I don't want to'I don't have to and you can't make me.

Re: Skylease Cargo 747 Runway Overrun YHZ Nov 7, 2018

Post by Old fella »

tbaylx wrote: Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:19 am ILS's are going the way of the ndb. Over the next number of years they will be phased out in favour of RNAV RNP approaches. If an airline chooses not to be RNAV capable that will be tantamount to only having an NDB approach available to you today. As pilot's if companies don't give you the necessary equipment to get in in certain weather conditions then that's what we have alternates for.
Nav Canada's tech watch publication indicates a 10 yr life-cycle ILS replacement cycle which the last phase to be completed this year(2018) a good many replacements have been done. Not sure ILS is is going the way of NDB approaches yet.An informed source at NC said this life-cycle is good to 2040 as new systems are quite good. Don't think RNAV-RNP is as good as CAT 111 with the various A and B limits but then again there are better informed that me on this.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “Accidents, Incidents & Overdue Aircraft”