COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

This forum has been developed to discuss aviation related topics.

Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog

Post Reply
User avatar
AirFrame
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2610
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:27 pm
Location: Sidney, BC
Contact:

Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by AirFrame »

DougRonan wrote: Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:48 pm...The most important thing with COPA For Kids - (I can't believe I have to actual write this!) is THE KIDS! Two main things are important about these aforementioned kids - FIRST - their safety/security...
Doug, I don't think anyone here would argue with a straight face that the safety of kids isn't first and foremost at every CFK event. Having participated in a dozen of them myself, I know we brief and re-brief safety procedures and plans for getting kids to and from and into and out of aircraft safely.

That said: A safety check on a pilot who is only with the kid for 20 minutes, belted in, to a noisy aircraft, and during which time half of it will be spent focused on dealing with ATC and getting in and out of the circuit, is ridiculous. Especially when you consider that the ground crew isn't required to get the same check... When they will spend hours on the ground with the kids during a CFK event, marshalling them around buildings and aircraft and into and out of rooms for ground school and helping them find bathrooms.

If the policy were implemented across the board for anyone participating in a CFK event, it would be more effective, and possibly more palatable.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
rookiepilot
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4403
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:50 pm

Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by rookiepilot »

DougRonan wrote: Thu Nov 15, 2018 10:48 pm
- some people here have lost sight of whats important. The most important thing with COPA For Kids - (I can't believe I have to actual write this!) is THE KIDS! Two main things are important about these aforementioned kids - FIRST - their safety/security and SECOND - that they get to experience the "Joy of Flight".

I have spent years and quite literally thousands of dollars to get every kid I come in contact with interested in flying - I currently have 6 young people I'm mentoring to get their licence - one 19 yr old passed his Private Flight test today - 5 of them own airplanes that I gave up thousands of dollars to get them into cheap. It is absolutely shameful to think that the guy with that 180 on floats that took me for a ride or anyone of the people that got any one of you into flying would have not done so over $25 - think very carefully about how absurd that really is!! Please look at the big picture here!!
In a word, when you volunteer, and I have invested years and years doing so, time away from my family, and a lot of my own dollars too -- It's not about you, frankly. That seems to be hard to understand.

When I volunteer, It's "how can I serve you". I'm happy to do so. Volunteering has given me great joy. I have more opportunities lined up than I can count.

You who are so bitter about it, I feel sorry for you. I really do.
---------- ADS -----------
 
MrWings
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1004
Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 10:35 am

Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by MrWings »

I find the stance by a COPA director on this issue ironic.

On 406 ELTs, COPA believes ELTs fail more than they function. And they believe that for many owners ELTs are cost prohibitive. I can't believe you are fighting this COPA! It's about safety! You act like buying an ELT is like giving a kidney.

COPA fights the mandatory implementation of 406 ELTs, despite the support of the Search and Rescue community and it being a legal requirement, because they claim there is no improvement to safety.

Then they wonder why a vulnerable sector check is met with opposition. Their response is "just do it".

Ironic AND insulting.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
PilotDAR
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4053
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:46 pm
Location: Near CNJ4 Orillia, Ontario

Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by PilotDAR »

There sure seems to be a lot of passion about the possible cost of having the check done! For those who are commenting on $25 for the police check, have you actually inquired about the cost? If it's the OPP, there is no charge for a police check for volunteer actives (I filled out the form ten days ago). If the $25 means that much to you anyway, breath a sigh of relief - no $25 (for Ontario, at least).

'Worried about the inconvenience to you of having the police check done? What about the inconvenience of attempting to persuade "the authorities" after an accusation is made against you, or something dredged up from your past! Guilty or not, there has been ample evidence in recent times how even the most innocent person can be subject to a lot of inquiry. Not that a police check can entirely prevent that, but it sure looks a lot better to have had it done!

It's about professionalism pilots. You can bimble around by yourself, staying out of everyone else's way, and below the radar, and probably no one cares what you do. If you choose to present yourself as a participant at an event, where pilot professionalism is being considered, get your paperwork right! The event can request whatever they feel is necessary to demonstrate that standards were met. It's your job to provide your documents to that effect! I'll never forget an occasion when I was an organizer of a fly in, and responsible to TC for the compliance of the event. We had seaplane games, and pilots had to register to participate (of course, participation was voluntary, no one was walking around asking you to show your papers). A pilot presents himself to me for registration for the seaplane games. He did not have a pilot's license, nor insurance, and the C of A for his airplane did not seem to be supported by up to date log entries (he had flown it to the event that day). He seemed disappointed when I informed him that I could not allow him to participate, for lack of paperwork. He backtalked me. I said to him: "You do realize that that fellow just over there (while I pointed out the TC Inspector) is a TC Inspector overseeing the event, who could ask to see anyone's paperwork....". The applicant quietly withdrew.

Things aren't the way they were when at 13, I was taken for my first flight, similar to Doug's experience. I was a volunteer firefighter for more than 15 years when the requirement was applied to us. It did not matter that I'd known the Chief for nearly twenty years, everyone had to have the check done, for the sake of the Fire Department, and one's own piece of mind. The world has done it to itself, so here we are, just live with the new reality, it's less work than fighting it!
---------- ADS -----------
 
MrWings
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1004
Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 10:35 am

Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by MrWings »

PilotDAR wrote: Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:25 am I was a volunteer firefighter for more than 15 years when the requirement was applied to us. It did not matter that I'd known the Chief for nearly twenty years, everyone had to have the check done, for the sake of the Fire Department, and one's own piece of mind. The world has done it to itself, so here we are, just live with the new reality, it's less work than fighting it!
There are times when a vulnerable sector check makes sense. There are times when it doesn't.

Some choose to blindly jump through any unnecessary hoops put in front of them. Some choose to fight against meaningless rules and regulations.
---------- ADS -----------
 
digits_
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5931
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by digits_ »

PilotDAR wrote: Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:25 am 'Worried about the inconvenience to you of having the police check done? What about the inconvenience of attempting to persuade "the authorities" after an accusation is made against you, or something dredged up from your past! Guilty or not, there has been ample evidence in recent times how even the most innocent person can be subject to a lot of inquiry. Not that a police check can entirely prevent that, but it sure looks a lot better to have had it done!
What situation could realistically come up where having a police check would help you? If kid accused you for some reason, you could still always get the check done and prove that you've never been caught doing something like that before in your life.

In your example, you actively checked if required paperwork was in order. Nobody is disputing that. No pilot would object to showing his pilot license (I assume). This discussion is about a COPA imposed rule that only makes the life of their volunteers harder and serves no practical purpose.
PilotDAR wrote: Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:25 am The world has done it to itself, so here we are, just live with the new reality, it's less work than fighting it!
Well, undo it. This is a very example in which you can undo it. It is just a COPA rule. From Doug's message I get the impression that it wasn't even requested by the parents or the insurance companies. It was just a rule that copa came up with to "go with the times", because of the "climate". That's just not good enough a reason.

One more thing:
PilotDAR wrote: Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:25 am The event can request whatever they feel is necessary to demonstrate that standards were met.
That is simply not true. We have privacy rules and laws that determine what you can ask for. I admit this most likely not an issue for the copa kids flights, but an organisation where you won't work with kids or vulnerable people for example, is not allowed to require a vulnerable records check.
---------- ADS -----------
 
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
DougRonan
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 1:46 pm

Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by DougRonan »

COPA President Bernard Gervais summed it up in the following article:

https://copanational.org/en/2018/11/16/ ... mber-2018/
---------- ADS -----------
 
goldeneagle
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1177
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2006 3:28 pm

Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by goldeneagle »

rookiepilot wrote: Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:05 am When I volunteer, It's "how can I serve you". I'm happy to do so. Volunteering has given me great joy. I have more opportunities lined up than I can count.

You who are so bitter about it, I feel sorry for you. I really do.
Folks, mark this day clearly on the calendar, it's a monumental occasion.

rookie and goldeneagle agree on something. Whoda thunk that was even possible.....
---------- ADS -----------
 
charrois
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 63
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 11:15 pm

Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by charrois »

DougRonan wrote: Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:40 am COPA President Bernard Gervais summed it up in the following article:

https://copanational.org/en/2018/11/16/ ... mber-2018/
I'm glad they publicly clarified the reasoning behind their decision. The takeaway is that though they didn't necessarily want to do it, their insurance company pretty much insisted.

My biggest concern as an organizer has been in losing volunteer pilots due to more bureaucracy and red tape. The challenge will be in trying to appeal to pilots' "big picture" view that giving kids the experience vs. refusing to have the check done on principle is ultimately what's important here. Deflecting criticism of the decision from COPA to the insurance companies will help - everyone loves to hate insurance companies. Defending the decision on the basis of "just because we decided to" is a lot more difficult, particularly when a large number of pilots see it as an ineffective and inappropriate measure. I'm one of that number, but it's helpful to know where criticism of the decision should be directed.

There is no question it will be more difficult to get sufficient pilots to run our event without turning away kids. So we're going to have to find ways to be more persuasive.

But this leads to the next question of which I've always been unsure. If the decision is essentially insurance-industry driven, exactly what role does the insurance cover for these events? I know that the pilots have to carry their own liability insurance to fly. What is the COPA insurance liable for, and why do we need it? I'm not being facetious - I've just never really understood this. If it's to cover issues that may arise while in the air, wouldn't the pilot's liability insurance be called on if something happened? If it's for issues that may arise on the ground, why are pilots being singled out for the new requirement and not everyone else involved (perhaps because on the ground everything is done in a very public forum, with the parents usually not far)? Not that I want to upset the apple cart and make things even harder to find ground crew as well, but I just want to understand things as well as I can.

Another question - with another organization I'm involved in (Youth Robotics), a similar check was required, but in that case I merely had to give permission for them to conduct the check on my behalf. From what I understand of Young Eagles (though I'm just a volunteer there, not an organizer, so I'll be the first to admit I don't know for certain), they may have a similar procedure in place. Would such a thing be possible as an alternative? I can guarantee that far more pilots would consent to allowing COPA to do a check on their behalf than get around to doing it themselves.

Dan
---------- ADS -----------
 
MrWings
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1004
Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 10:35 am

Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by MrWings »

charrois wrote: Fri Nov 16, 2018 4:23 pm If the decision is essentially insurance-industry driven, exactly what role does the insurance cover for these events?
Great question. It is my assumption that they'd covered incidents related to operating the aircraft. I feel like they'd never even consider paying a settlement for an abuse claim.

So the VSC is good for 3 years. You could theoretically have an offender flying kids 2 years and 364 days after an offence. Sounds very effective.
---------- ADS -----------
 
photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 11306
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Hangry and crankypated

Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by photofly »

Charities will have a general insurance policy against claims of negilgence from volunteers and members of the public.

Here’s a company that specializes in providing it, and you can get a good idea of the risks covered from their site:
https://www.ecclesiastical.ca/insurance ... t-protect/

In addition Directors carry a lot of personal liability in their operation of a charity, especially if they can be shown to have been negligent in in their decision making in some way. One part of the test can be industry standards, and a consideration of what other similar charities considered reasonable.

Every charity will provide Directors’ and officers’ insurance, otherwise nobody will take on the risk of serving on a charity board.
---------- ADS -----------
 
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
User avatar
AirFrame
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2610
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:27 pm
Location: Sidney, BC
Contact:

Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by AirFrame »

DougRonan wrote: Fri Nov 16, 2018 10:40 amCOPA President Bernard Gervais summed it up in the following article:

https://copanational.org/en/2018/11/16/ ... mber-2018/
I understand where the requirement is coming from now, the insurance companies want it and will kill CFK without it. Okay, I get that. But I still can't fathom why only the pilots are required to get it. The ground crew at a CFK event is in no less a "position of authority" over the children and spends more time with the kids than the pilots do.

I would understand requiring the entire CFK team (pilots and crew) to get the VS check. I don't understand requiring the *least* likely person to cause a problem to get a VS check, while the *most* likely person doesn't have to get one.
---------- ADS -----------
 
ahramin
Rank Moderator
Rank Moderator
Posts: 6309
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:21 pm
Location: Vancouver

Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by ahramin »

Because the insurance company wants it for the pilots and not for the ground staff.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
AirFrame
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2610
Joined: Sun Oct 11, 2009 10:27 pm
Location: Sidney, BC
Contact:

Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by AirFrame »

ahramin wrote: Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:25 am Because the insurance company wants it for the pilots and not for the ground staff.
I agree, it doesn't make any sense. Maybe someone needs to point out to the insurance company that the pilots spend the least amount of time with the kids and have the least free hands and attention span available to do something with.
---------- ADS -----------
 
digits_
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5931
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by digits_ »

That still doesn't explain what the advantage is for the pilot for flying under the copa for kids label if he takes up kids outside of that event as mentioned in the article:
This becomes particularly more relevant as we expand the program to allow pilots to conduct sanctioned, insurance-covered flights outside of an organized COPA for Kids event day like with neighbours, friends, work colleagues or anyone, whether youth or adults.
What kind of insurance would the pilot get extra if he already has his own liability insurance? And would he need a police check to fly his 50 year old neighbor around?
---------- ADS -----------
 
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
DougRonan
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 1:46 pm

Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by DougRonan »

So let me get this straight - a certain number of you have been complaining that COPA has implemented this policy of a back ground check for the pilots - now after 95 posts I believe its been explained very well why this was done and it was not done by COPA's choice and not taken lightly - and now the same certain number of you are complaining now that we don't make it more restrictive and add back ground check for the ground crew as well - so oddly enough there is a common denominator with the same certain number of you posting on this topic - complaining!
---------- ADS -----------
 
shamrock104
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 791
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2005 9:16 pm

Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by shamrock104 »

Lets make it fair across the board, have the kids come in with clean conduct sheets in hand too, fair then for everyone.
---------- ADS -----------
 
flyzam
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 76
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2015 11:15 am

Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by flyzam »

Image
---------- ADS -----------
 
photofly
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 11306
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:47 pm
Location: Hangry and crankypated

Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by photofly »

digits_ wrote: Sat Nov 17, 2018 8:59 am That still doesn't explain what the advantage is for the pilot for flying under the copa for kids label if he takes up kids outside of that event as mentioned in the article:
This becomes particularly more relevant as we expand the program to allow pilots to conduct sanctioned, insurance-covered flights outside of an organized COPA for Kids event day like with neighbours, friends, work colleagues or anyone, whether youth or adults.
What kind of insurance would the pilot get extra if he already has his own liability insurance? And would he need a police check to fly his 50 year old neighbor around?
There seems to be some confusion. The insurance benefits COPA, not the pilot or the passenger. if a child is assaulted by a pilot the child (or more likely the parents) could bring a suit against COPA for negligence for placing the child in a position to be assaulted by the pilot. COPA (or actually, COPA's insurer) wants to be able to defend against that claim by saying, look, we took all reason care to keep your child safe, including requiring the pilot to provide a vulnerable sector check. If he or she assaulted the child, it's not our fault.

It's not clear that, with or without a police check, that COPA would be liable in negligence. But insurance companies are all about risk, and to them, the risk of a lawsuit, and the possible payout awarded against COPA (and therefore against them) in the event that a lawsuit is successful, are both reduced if the pilot has provided a check. Even if the lawsuit is purely speculative, it's still going to cost a six figure sum to mount a defence. The insurer wants to head that off at the pass.

Just to reiterate, it doesn't make the pilot any more or less likely to assault a child. It's just COPA's way of being better able to say, in the event a complaint is made, that it's not the charity's fault.

Please also note that the insurer doesn't care how difficult it is to get pilots to volunteer; in fact the insurer would prefer it if no pilots ever volunteered, and the events never happened. Their risk would be much lower that way. Which is how they like it.

This has nothing to do with a pilot's compulsory liability insurance, which would not cover COPA (a third party) against their own negligence in facilitating a criminal act by the pilot against a passenger. That insurance doesn't even cover a pilot for deliberate criminal acts - how could it?



There's another important point here. Insurance companies don't turn around and suddenly demand police checks. Insurance companies want to see a well thought out child protection policy, and they want to see that child protection policy followed. Because if you don't have a policy, or if you have a policy and you don't follow it, you're implicitly in the wrong when a problem occurs. I know this because I had to negotiate with an insurance broker for an umbrella insurance policy for a charity. Including deciding when a police check was appropriate, and for whom.

So I should like to see COPA publicize their new child protection policy - and it should be public - rather than just cherry pick a single new requirement. The policy should explain how children are to be kept safe at all stages of an event including on the ground and in the air.
---------- ADS -----------
 
DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
DougRonan
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 47
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 1:46 pm

Re: COPA for Kids pilots now require police check

Post by DougRonan »

I really think this conversation has run its course and is not being productive anymore but i do need to respond to this previous post because it is 150 % false!!

Photofly wrote"

"Please also note that the insurer doesn't care how difficult it is to get pilots to volunteer; in fact the insurer would prefer it if no pilots ever volunteered, and the events never happened. Their risk would be much lower that way. Which is how they like it."

This is the most asinine and baseless statement I have ever heard - especially in this case - both the Broker - Magnus and the Underwritter - AIG are big supporters in many ways of the COPA For Kids program so I (and probably a lot of other sane people) are getting really sick of the negativity towards COPA and more importantly the COPA For Kids program!! Some of you people act like this is some sort of service that COPA is providing to you at a charge and your not getting what your paying for. It is a totally volunteer program 100% to benefit Canadian Aviation and get kids into flying - it is absolutely ridiculous to me that some of you people keep running this program down when its only purpose is to build aviation up in this country. COPA, its insurance broker, and insurance underwriter have worked very hard to make this program as good as it is!! So all you "Debbie Downers' need to find something else to bitch about and just forget this program exists and let the people that are actually interested in making the aviation world better one kid at a time!!

People have to understand - COPA is different now - we are all trying to row in the same direction and be good for aviation - this kind of nattering negativity is not good for anything!!
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “General Comments”