AC pay rates

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Joe Blow Schmo
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AC pay rates

Post by Joe Blow Schmo » Thu Nov 29, 2018 10:03 pm

I was looking through the AC collective agreement and see the various pay calculations (weight, speed, basic, nav, night..etc) but I couldn't see an actual combined pay scale anywhere. Is there a published, blended hourly rate that includes all of the above or do you just have to calculate it yourself from each individual section?
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snowcone
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Re: AC pay rates

Post by snowcone » Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:22 am

ACPA has the pay charts, but there are not in the forced contract.
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TheStig
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Re: AC pay rates

Post by TheStig » Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:58 am

acpa.ca -- Documents & Multimedia -- Pay Tables
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Ratherbe
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Re: AC pay rates

Post by Ratherbe » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:56 am

Page 4 has the negotiated hourly rates.
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Joe Blow Schmo
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Re: AC pay rates

Post by Joe Blow Schmo » Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:20 pm

TheStig wrote:
Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:58 am
acpa.ca -- Documents & Multimedia -- Pay Tables
Do you need to be a member and log in to get that? I don’t see it on the public page.
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Shady McSly
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Re: AC pay rates

Post by Shady McSly » Sat Dec 01, 2018 10:24 am

Image
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altiplano
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Re: AC pay rates

Post by altiplano » Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:16 pm

So misguided.
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groundpilot
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Re: AC pay rates

Post by groundpilot » Sat Dec 01, 2018 6:43 pm

Is it though?

2nd year AC pay is less than 2nd year Swoop pay.

Don’t underestimate how bad flat pay is
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altiplano
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Re: AC pay rates

Post by altiplano » Sat Dec 01, 2018 8:56 pm

Yeah it is misguided.

The "flat" pay needs to be improved, there is no argument, but it's a long game... and if all you can afford on $60K or $70K/year plus a $10K profit share is KD, then you're making some bad choices... or maybe get off the 9 day RP sked and take an upgrade if you're that financially challenged...

You know when "flat" pay was really bad was when it didn't matter how much you worked, draft, OT, whatever and you made $38K a year... that was where the "flat" in the term "flat" pay came from... it really was flat...
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Lightchop
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Re: AC pay rates

Post by Lightchop » Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:47 pm

I'll HAPPILY take the pay cut from Express capt to flat pay RP, work 9 days a month and pull $60k. Better than the $75k I make now working 16-18 days a month.
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groundpilot
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Re: AC pay rates

Post by groundpilot » Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:16 pm

altiplano wrote:
Sat Dec 01, 2018 8:56 pm
Yeah it is misguided.

The "flat" pay needs to be improved, there is no argument, but it's a long game... and if all you can afford on $60K or $70K/year plus a $10K profit share is KD, then you're making some bad choices... or maybe get off the 9 day RP sked and take an upgrade if you're that financially challenged...

You know when "flat" pay was really bad was when it didn't matter how much you worked, draft, OT, whatever and you made $38K a year... that was where the "flat" in the term "flat" pay came from... it really was flat...
When you mean "bad choices" do you mean:

1) paying for pilot training & possibly university and graduating with student loans

2) then getting your first job making food stamp rates

3) then finally making a decent wage as a skipper but then making the "jump" to AC

4) to be on reserve in Toronto & Vancouver which are among the most expensive cities in the world. But hey you're making $75k a year, after 2 to 3 years

5) or commute at the airline with no commuter policy

In hindsight, you might have a point here...hence why we have a pilot shortage particular in the US as young people decided it was a "bad choice" and did something else
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altiplano
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Re: AC pay rates

Post by altiplano » Sun Dec 02, 2018 7:31 pm

Don't let facts get in the way of your indignation or entitlement.

You are still earning above the median household incomes for the region/country... and you only have to manage it for a couple years... it goes up steeply So, yeah, poor choices if all you can afford is KD on $70K a year.
Household income is the sum of the total incomes of all members of a household. In the City
of Vancouver, median household income increased from $47,299 in 2005, to $65,327 in 2015
for a 38% gain. This is compared to a median household income of $72,662 across Metro
Vancouver region and $70,336 for all Canadian households. In 2015, median income for one person
households was $38,449 in the City of Vancouver, and only slightly lower at $38,164
for Metro Vancouver.
https://vancouver.ca/files/cov/2017-09- ... elease.pdf

I'm not defending it, I've been there... but to equate KD and food stamps is ridiculous.
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Joe Blow Schmo
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Re: AC pay rates

Post by Joe Blow Schmo » Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:33 am

And here I just wanted to see AC’s pay scales. Can somebody post them?

No need to argue about who pays worse. It’s all bad :smt040
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iflyroads
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Re: AC pay rates

Post by iflyroads » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:44 am

https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/air ... air_canada

Pretty dated info. But generally can give you a ball park idea.

Some rates are off as much as 8 to 10 bucks and hour. But some are close enough (2 bucks)
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goleafsgo
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Re: AC pay rates

Post by goleafsgo » Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:22 am

Why is it so secretive when the pay rates and contracts for jazz, Sunwing, Transat, etc are readily available?
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yycflyguy
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Re: AC pay rates

Post by yycflyguy » Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:41 am

Like everything at AC; it's complicated, not necessarily secretive.

Your pay is not purely based on an hourly rate, it is broken down to the minute. Each month has a different DBM. There are day/night differences, step differences, Overseas premium (some a/c), Navigation premium (some a/c), AVO premium opportunities, flat pay v formulae, FO rates based on a percentage of Captain hourly, passport allowance, shoe allowance, ART once a year, Sim pay (every six months or eight months depending rouge v mainline, vacation pay.

You need to be a forensic account to figure out if you have paid correctly, and every pilot has a unique set of circumstances.

IMO the complicated pay is by design as most guys won't go through their expenses and pay to ensure correctness. I was finding around $150/month in expense errors for years. $1500/year times 4000 pilots gets to be a pretty big number, pretty fast.
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Inverted2
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Re: AC pay rates

Post by Inverted2 » Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:31 am

Out of curiosity what is NAV pay?
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altiplano
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Re: AC pay rates

Post by altiplano » Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:47 am

Inverted2 wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:31 am
Out of curiosity what is NAV pay?
CA $10.93/ hour

FO $5.46/ hour

RP $3.28/ hour
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pilotbzh
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Re: AC pay rates

Post by pilotbzh » Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:09 pm

First 4 years of misery

02-Apr-18
guaranteed up to 75 monthly block hours Year Monthly
Status of svc Rate

FO 01 4,416.00 $
FO 02 4,828.50 $
FO 03 5,502.75 $
FO 04 6,162.00 $
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Re: AC pay rates

Post by goleafsgo » Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:01 pm

pilotbzh wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:09 pm
First 4 years of misery

02-Apr-18
guaranteed up to 75 monthly block hours Year Monthly
Status of svc Rate

FO 01 4,416.00 $
FO 02 4,828.50 $
FO 03 5,502.75 $
FO 04 6,162.00 $
Those are monthly pay before deductions?
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Inverted2
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Re: AC pay rates

Post by Inverted2 » Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:08 pm

altiplano wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:47 am
Inverted2 wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:31 am
Out of curiosity what is NAV pay?
CA $10.93/ hour

FO $5.46/ hour

RP $3.28/ hour
Sorry I wasn’t clear. What is NAV pay actually for? Like for celestial navigation or entering Lat/Long on those dino 320’s? :lol:
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Joe Blow Schmo
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Re: AC pay rates

Post by Joe Blow Schmo » Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:12 pm

yycflyguy wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:41 am
Like everything at AC; it's complicated, not necessarily secretive.

Your pay is not purely based on an hourly rate, it is broken down to the minute. Each month has a different DBM. There are day/night differences, step differences, Overseas premium (some a/c), Navigation premium (some a/c), AVO premium opportunities, flat pay v formulae, FO rates based on a percentage of Captain hourly, passport allowance, shoe allowance, ART once a year, Sim pay (every six months or eight months depending rouge v mainline, vacation pay.

You need to be a forensic account to figure out if you have paid correctly, and every pilot has a unique set of circumstances.

IMO the complicated pay is by design as most guys won't go through their expenses and pay to ensure correctness. I was finding around $150/month in expense errors for years. $1500/year times 4000 pilots gets to be a pretty big number, pretty fast.
Yes, most airlines have similar yet they are still able to publish hourly rates for all to see.
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nightbird
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Re: AC pay rates

Post by nightbird » Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:34 pm

PAY-TABLES-EFFECTIVE-APRIL-2%2c-2018.pdf
(138.67 KiB) Downloaded 811 times
PAY-TABLES-EFFECTIVE-APRIL-2%2c-2018.pdf
(138.67 KiB) Downloaded 811 times
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Joe Blow Schmo
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Re: AC pay rates

Post by Joe Blow Schmo » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:11 pm

nightbird wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:34 pm
PAY-TABLES-EFFECTIVE-APRIL-2%2c-2018.pdfPAY-TABLES-EFFECTIVE-APRIL-2%2c-2018.pdf
Thank you!

So do all fleets get the navaid pay for all hours flown?

Is overseas pay for all flights outside of Canada? Or North America?

What about Rouge rates?
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nightbird
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Re: AC pay rates

Post by nightbird » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:16 pm

Nav Pay applies to overseas operations defined as:

Any flight operation that departs and/or arrives outside of Canada, the United
States (excluding Hawaii), Mexico, the Bahamas and the Territorial
Collectivity of Saint-Pierre-et-Miquelon

Pilots on flat pay don’t receive nav pay.
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