Owner/Operator's perspective

[Owner/Operator]

How about some input from an owner/operator's perspective. Most of the comments in this forum from instructors are about poor wages for flight instructors. Here are my thoughts/ramblings and please tell me if you disagree. Why would I feel compelled to pay a decent wage to a flight instructor who hates waiting for a student to return from a cross country trip. Why would I want to give a raise to an instructor who sits and waits for the next fam flight candidate to walk in the door or for the phone to ring. Can the flight school really afford to use all of its profits to pay for expensive (and practically worthless) newspaper and radio advertising to try to make a new student walk through that door. How about making yourself so indispensable around the office (instead of just hanging around waiting) that the operator of the business couldn't dream of running the place without you. How about cleaning the office/washrooms/reception area even though the janitorial staff will do it sometime later in the week. How about taking such great pride in the equipment that you operate that you spend every free moment to get that last bug off the leading edge or oil stain off the belly (even though only you know it's there). Don't you think that prospective students will subconciously recognize the professional appearance of your school and decide to train with you instead of the other guys? How about picking up the phone and calling students that haven't flown in a while to come and get current (and safe) or encouraging a new pilot to improve their instrument skills or get a night rating. How about using your connections in the outside world to get people excited about aviation and attract new business (instead of constantly bitching about how bad your situation is and thereby sending negative messages). Don't have any outside connections because all your friends are pilots? Consider joining a group or club that has nothing to do with aviation. You will probably get at least one new student a month. That will be money in your employer's pocket (and of course yours too) and your employer WILL recognize your involvement in getting that business. How about doing something ... ANYTHING PRODUCTIVE ... while at work instead of waiting to be told to do something. Sitting around waiting for the next student to come in the door, or surfing the internet and complaining about how your employer doesn't "give" you enough flying hours/pay, and, more importantly, failing to take PRIDE in what will probably be the most important job you ever have, is certainly not the way to improve your job satisfaction, income or future employment prospects. Teaching people to fly, to love aviation and to make good choices/decisions along the way, and doing everything that you can do to demonstrate your VALUE should give you the return you are looking for. Now I just wish I could find such a valuable person.

[5x5]

Hear, hear!!

[Cat Driver]

Owner/ Operator :

Exactly.....

When I owned a flight school there was only one...ONE!!! instructor that on his own just pitched in and did everything you listed. Hell he even had me buy him a pressure washer to do the airplane bellies.

Now when you do find one like that there will be great dismay and hand wringing among the other instructors because they will start whining and moaning about how come xxx gets to fly the twin? How come xxx is getting his Instrument rating? how come xxx is getting a free helicopter license........xxx got all that over the two years he was in my employ and he earned every minute of it....

However about twenty other instructors only saw favoritism , as they watched from the office lounges while xxx swept the hangar fooor, just because it needed doing.

Cat

[chewsta]

O/O,

You raise some very good points. I think there are some folks out there who would do that if they were being paid for it. Not all operators are as respectable as you are.

If someone is cleaning planes and sweeping the floor he deserves to paid as he is doing work for the company. Now, maybe not as much as you're paying him to fly as any grunt could do the work. Perhaps $10/hr instead of $17? I think the problem is that alot of people feel very devauled when the boss won't pay him for work that is improving the school's profit for that boss (not to mention the legality of it). When people feel like shit, they won't really care about doing anything extra.

Perhaps the answer is to offer a dispatch position during slow periods of the day (7-11 or 4-8 ?) where any flight instructor can sign up to do those duties (like cleaning the washroom) and get paid for it. The rest of the time everyone else is expected to answer the phone and such.

Any thoughts?

[Right Seat Captain]

O/O,

I must say thank you for that post. It's something that has been overlooked on this forum for so long. I wouldn't have my job without doing some of those things you listed. I managed to jump the line in front of many for a job, so I know the benefits are there.

However, I know you will get people arguing the famous dispute, is it work, then get paid, or get paid then work. It really depends on who you work for, because there are so many operators that let hard work go unnoticed or ignored. Anyone working for you sounds like is in a great work environment. I am thankful everytime I walk into work that I ended up at the place I did, and not at another local airport working for a not so good school.

[Murdoch86]

At my School we are encouraged to do that kind of work.

I fuel, move, groom, service, wash, wax, de-grease, inspect (under supervision) the airplanes to help em make a full day. I also help inside the office with what ever need to be done. Around the airport I help with ground maintenance.

I think I get a decent job and I take pride in how I can "hold down the fort" by my self.

But I would like to be paid from the time I walk in to the time I walk out of work. 10$/hr for me to be there. I return I will be there to do all the "other" duties an instructor has to do. While I'm out flying or instructing (invoiced time) my wage goes up to the proper wage for my class of instructor. This way it's a win win for the employer and the instructor. He gets an employee who can work all day and does something with the time he’s there. I would get a day's wage out of it. This would help to make instructing a better and more stable job. And I would only have to work one job.

On bad weather days (when there is no flying or students). The instructor can help in the shop, help w/ the billing/invoicing and office stuff. There is always something to do around an airport. As long as the employer does not pull too many “make work” excise, I don’t mind at all being there 5-6 days a week.

I still think there should be a dedicated ramp person. Nothing looks worse than the Instructor saying: ‘Joe, do you mind waiting a sec, I have to go fuel that airplane…”

The way I have it now is not bad, but I would only like to have to have one job. 40 paid hours a week is not too much to ask.

Mudoch86

[727driver]

There are some operators out there who take advantage of instructors because they know these guys are low time and will do anything to fly. I have no problem with getting pilots to do other tasks around the FBO as long as they pay for it. Making some someone hang around the airport 8-10 hours a day for a 1.3 training flight at $20.00/hr and getting them to do other tasks and not paying them for it is abuse. For example take the, Owner/Operate that owns a FTU/AMO. Slow day on the flight line but couple of 100hr inspections going on in the shop. Pilot gets yanked in the back tossed some coveralls and some wrenches and told to remove the cowls, change the oil, remove inspection covers, pull the plugs etc. all the basics. After spending the better part of the day doing this time to go home with nothing but a measly base pay if your lucky. Then you learn that the owner/operator gleefully tacks on your labour time to owners bill for the 100hr at the full rate of a licensed AME. What did you get for your time a big bag of F/A. If you want someone there at your disposal to do as you wish whether it is to fly, dispatch, turn wrenches, fuel customers aircraft than pay the guy salary wage.(and do not insult him with some base pay that works out to be less than minimum wage) The guy has to eat too. And don't tell me it has to be that way because flight school does not make any money. When the owner/operator flies to his vaction home twice a month or dumps $500.00 in his gaspig warbird every weekend I find it hard to believe his sob story that the school does not make any money and thats why I can't pay you a salary. Now here is some MEK and go clean my airplane for free.

[mcrit]

O/O:
Its simple, you want something done, then pay for it.

[cyyz]

If someone is cleaning and sweeping the floor he deserves to paid as he is doing work for the company. Now, maybe not as much as you're paying him to fly as any grunt could do the work. Perhaps $10/hr instead of $17?

I think the problem is that alot of people feel very devauled when the boss won't pay him for work that is improving the school's profit for that boss

God forbid people keep the work place clean or that people clean up after themselves.. Lets just be pigs, throw our garbage out and let someone else deal with it. Have you seen Toronto lately? Noticed how everyone says it's a crap hole?? Might be the mentality, oh, the city workers(gov't employees) will clean up the mess, well we know what they're paid to do and we know what they do. But wouldn't it just be a nice thought to keep your work area presentable?

If the schools profits increase, that means you're training more, if you're training more, you're flying more and won't have time to do menial work. Or I guess you can sit in your own filth. What do you think the customers see when they see some instructors in torn jeans, white shirts covered in coffee stains, dirty planes, gum on the carpet, grimmy windows. I'm pretty sure a good bunch of them will go to the competition.

Loss of revenues = no flying no wages no food no house.. But atleast you kept your dignity you remained in your own turd but you didn't clean yourself no matter how much the owner begged you to shower. How dare he ask you to practice good hygene at your expense..

[sakism]

....

[Jet Dog]

...soo... you want your employees (instructors) to clean up.. sounds like you need a janitor, not an instructor.... why should pilots all over the country be stealing janitor jobs, many a janitor on the street because of this. Seriously though, we all paid upwards to 40g's to FLY not clean your office that you messed, you want the plane cleaned.. ask your mechanics to do it... watch them laugh at you and go to another job, why? because there are more jobs to mechanics ratio than on the pilot side, we pilots have been prosituting ourselves for too long for being crapped on in every way. WE are PILOTS, we TRAINED to be PILOTS, YOU HIRED us to be PILOTS, theres plenty of neighbourhood kids to clean your car, don't be so damn cheap, if you can't afford to pay YOUR employees fairly, you shouldn't be in the business, if YOU can't afford to train PILOTS and require PPC, YOU shouldn't be in the business, if YOU can't treat your PILOTS nicely YOU shouldn't be in the business... get the point yet? This is a point for all you operators, just like an owner and his dog, you can abuse the dog for only soo long before it turns on ya. Perhaps you fall in this catergory, thats why your instructors aren't motivated, if you treat them nicely, and care about morale, then you'll see people help out on lil things, but what you need now is a janitor call the paper and put an ad out...

P.S. I am not an instructor, nor was I, I went thru the ramp, and worked my way up, and so I have seen many operators around in my journeys, from my own experiences and thru the grapevine.

[flight27]

I agree with O/O!
I work 50hrs a week. I maintain the snow packed runways, I do office duty, answer phone, get on the phone with the students who haven't been around which gets me more time in the air bringing the customers in. No one else is going to do it so I do it!

If you want to work in dirty work place, go work at the city dump. Operators appreciate things you do either today or tomorrow. And taking care of the airplanes: Instructors should realize that it is their livelyhood as well as the operators if the aircraft aren't cared for. But it does help to get a little bit of a reward for the things they do.

When I did my instructor rating, the instructors sat on there ASS waiting to be given a student. It got to a point a was pissed off as a student and cleaned the snow off the planes and around the hangar doors. I had never seen such lazy instrutors in my life. But want to be the first one in the air with the only plane in the hangar after someone else cleaned everything for them.

[Shiny Side Up]

How about some input from an owner/operator's perspective. Most of the comments in this forum from instructors are about poor wages for flight instructors. Here are my thoughts/ramblings and please tell me if you disagree. Why would I feel compelled to pay a decent wage to a flight instructor who hates waiting for a student to return from a cross country trip.

Let me get this straight. You're asking someone to be responsible for your aircraft and one of your customers and not willing to pay them for it? Your instructor probably signs the student out. If the student doesn't come back who gets hung out to dry? You get to make profit off an airplane which is now flying on a cross country trip because an instructor has put in the work to get a student to that stage but you're not willing to pay this person a share of the profit that you as the owner are now making?

Why would I want to give a raise to an instructor who sits and waits for the next fam flight candidate to walk in the door or for the phone to ring.

Lets put this in the instructor's view. Two instructors are at your operation. One is waiting for the next student and is there to give him the whole spiel as soon as he walks in. The other is in back claening your bathroom for free. Which one gets the student?

Can the flight school really afford to use all of its profits to pay for expensive (and practically worthless) newspaper and radio advertising to try to make a new student walk through that door.

This has nothing to do with the instructors, it has to do with whomever is in charge of your marketing. If that person also happens to be an unpaid instructor, whom you aren't going to give any money for an advertising budget, then the results of your advertising are proportianate to your expenditure. This comes back to the big problem most flight schools have - you have to spend money to make money. While radio and newspapers might be ineffective they're also relatively cheap. If you want effective advertising then you have to pay for it. If you do it properly then it reaps the benefits of more business and pays for itself.

How about making yourself so indispensable around the office (instead of just hanging around waiting) that the operator of the business couldn't dream of running the place without you.

How about when someone does make themselves indispensable you recognize them for it? Like I've said before a few hours worth of pay at minimum wage would save the poor sod from having to moonlight at McDonalds. Offer the instructor the work, they'll usually gladly do it, and think you're a great guy in the process. Happy workers are productive workers. Whenever a business decides it can save money by cheaping out on the employees it never works. That's why you got lazy instructors. Pay top dollar and you'll get the hard working ones. And top dollar in the instructing world doesn't mean much money. I mean you got a 75,000 dollar aircraft (or more) out there you want taken care of and you want to pay as little as possible to run it?

How about cleaning the office/washrooms/reception area even though the janitorial staff will do it sometime later in the week.

So you can afford janitors, but you can't afford to pay the pilots? It shows who you as the operator value more.

How about taking such great pride in the equipment that you operate that you spend every free moment to get that last bug off the leading edge or oil stain off the belly (even though only you know it's there). Don't you think that prospective students will subconciously recognize the professional appearance of your school and decide to train with you instead of the other guys?

This once again starts with you the operator. I've seen to many operators that just keep their aircraft in "just" usable shape. Aircraft that go through more oil than fuel, have multiple "just for show" nav/comm panels or just have to soldier on until the next inspection because repairs now would cost the company too much. Treat the aircraft like gold and the pilots will follow suit.

How about picking up the phone and calling students that haven't flown in a while to come and get current (and safe) or encouraging a new pilot to improve their instrument skills or get a night rating.

That's all fine and dandy, but when was the last time someone sold you something over the telephone? Your instructors aren't telemarketers, or if you treat them as such, no wonder they don't like working for you.

How about using your connections in the outside world to get people excited about aviation and attract new business (instead of constantly bitching about how bad your situation is and thereby sending negative messages).

So now you want me to be working for you on my personal time? Telling people how great aviation is and what a wonderful career it is to get into? Sorry, but I don't like lying to my friends. In fact most of them still think I drive a bulldozer for a living. I've never convinced anyone to get into aviation who wasn't sold on the idea of flying from the start.

Don't have any outside connections because all your friends are pilots? Consider joining a group or club that has nothing to do with aviation. You will probably get at least one new student a month. That will be money in your employer's pocket (and of course yours too) and your employer WILL recognize your involvement in getting that business.

You sound like you run your flying school like Amway now. We all know how much that is loved by people who aren't in it.

How about doing something ... ANYTHING PRODUCTIVE ... while at work instead of waiting to be told to do something. Sitting around waiting for the next student to come in the door, or surfing the internet and complaining about how your employer doesn't "give" you enough flying hours/pay, and, more importantly, failing to take PRIDE in what will probably be the most important job you ever have, is certainly not the way to improve your job satisfaction, income or future employment prospects. Teaching people to fly, to love aviation and to make good choices/decisions along the way, and doing everything that you can do to demonstrate your VALUE should give you the return you are looking for. Now I just wish I could find such a valuable person.

Surfing the internet is PRODUCTIVE from the instructor's point of view - he's looking for a job with more hours/pay that he can take PRIDE inwith a company that VALUEs his hard work.

[cyyz]

How much do Realtors make?

Zero, unless they do work.

End of discussion..

Here we'll remedy this problem.

We'll pay the instructors $8/hr. Whether they're flying, cleaning the toilet, changing a lightbulb, calling clients, calling new clients, standing outside handing out flyers. They'll make 8/hr..

How's that compromise sound since you wanted to be paid for every little thing you "must" do, to keep the boss happy..

[Blastor]

It all depends who you work for: Fags, used car salesman, crooks, compulsive liars, or lawyers. If you’re real lucky your boss could be all of the above.

In any case some will want you to take it up the a** and others will request that you swallow.

It's up to you. No one is forcing you to work for any of them. Maybe you should start your own FTU and make a some $$$ for a change.

[cyyz]

It's up to you. No one is forcing you to work for any of them. Maybe you should start your own FTU and make a some $$$ for a change.

But then they'll be here complaining how their instructors don't do anything "above and beyond."

Human nature, we're rarely satisfied, we can always find something to complain about.

[Cat Driver]

My, My , My...isn't it interesting to see how some people feel about being a " PILOT ".

So some of you feel that cleaning an airplane or doing some extra work to help the company progress is below your dignity huh?

Go back and read my last post.

Now let me tell you my observations about instructors that worked for me.

First off I paid the top pay in the industry and my airplanes were maintained to airline standards, but that did not seem to motivate " most " of the instructors that I had on the pay roll, naw they were "pilots" and pilots don't get their hands dirty.

One guy came for an interview and during the conversation I told him that he would be assigned an airplane for which he would be responsible, for such things as clean windows, floor, oil and fuel at the start of each day.

He informed me in no uncertain terms that he was not about to put fuel or oil in any airplane, he was an instructor ( class 4. ) that was a mechanics job.

Do you think I should have hired him with that attitude?

By the way the instructor that worked for the company on his own initive ended up with around 75 thousand dollars worth of ratings and a helicopter license.......I think that was pay over and above his regular earnings.

But hey its a free world out there if you think that being a pilot puts you in a catergory that means you don't have to get your hands dirty go for it.

But I find most of that ilk can't fly worth a damn anyhow.

Cat.

[shitdisturber]

I don't have a problem with fuelling airplanes, or cleaning them when they get dirty, or assisting with maintenance on them; since it's my ass that's on the line I sorta have a vested interest in ensuring they're up to snuff. But i'll have to go along with Shiny about those ridiculous suggestions with respect to advertising, and socializing.

If you don't care enough about your business to advertise it properly, how can you possibly expect me to do it for you?

I think my favourite is the one about, joining a club outside work so I can talk other people into coming out for lessons. You want to sit around on your ass and collect your share of my labour and then you want me to use what little time off I take to shill for you? If that's not the strangest idea i've heard it's definitely up there.

To me it becomes an issue of pride. I take pride in my work and in the quality of pilot I produce; but i'm not doing it for the company that apparently takes so little pride in itself that it has expectations like that. I do it because I enjoy the success my students achieve and knowing I helped them get there. When a student says to me, "i've been wanting to fly since I was little so thank you for what you've done for me," that to me, is what it's all about.

An owner that has the kind of expectations i've been mentioning, and those were just my two favourites, will never be able to keep quality staff; as soon as something better comes along, the good ones will be out the door. Why should they care about your business when it seems you don't? Everybody these days seems to want something for nothing, and I do enough of that already; don't expect me to do more.

Cat, you at least, rewarded a quality employee for his/her/ efforts, but that I fear puts you in the minority. I'm willing to bet, even if you didn't say anything, whoever it was knew you well enough to know that the work ethic would be noticed and you would act accordingly. More power to both of you; it's the attitude of "I don't want to put any money into my business but I want you to bust your hump for me" that sticks in my craw. Unfortunately you seem to be one of the few who understand that loyalty is a two way street.

[cyyz]

I don't have a problem with fuelling airplanes, or cleaning them when they get dirty, or assisting with maintenance on them; since it's my ass that's on the line I sorta have a vested interest in ensuring they're up to snuff.

Remember reading the Kershner Instruction manual?

http://aviationworld.ca/product.asp?pID=552&cID=133

Brilliant cartoon picture with the instructor on a hammock sleeping, second day student doing his own walk around putting tnt into the fuel tanks.

Anyways, I remember having my instructor show me how to do a walk around once. After that he told me to arrive 30 minutes before our flights and have the walk around done, he'd show up ask if it's done and hope into the plane.. Obviously in my best interest to do a good one, but still what if I screwed up.. Some of the instructors do a diservice not only to their employers but also their students.

I think my favourite is the one about, joining a club outside work so I can talk other people into coming out for lessons.

I think that wasn't "typed" properly. It's like when the fireman dad goes to his son's school for show and tell, and the little kids want to see the firehall after... Lots of the Fire and police service guys are pilots. Many TC people fly part time. Imo, the point was, if you're on a baseball team you shouldn't lie about being a "construction worker" tell them you're a pilot and invite them out to become pilots too.. Be subtle in your attempt to attract customers. Not to go and join a homosexual club or hunting group to find clients. Be yourself, but mention it. You know, word of mouth..

Cat, you at least, rewarded a quality employee for his/her/ efforts, but that I fear puts you in the minority.

That's an also accurate statement. I agree some instructors don't deserve to work for a company, I'm certain we have operators that don't deserve to be staffed and to be in business.

[Right Seat Captain]

Somehow people seem to think that instructors get nothing out of marketing for the flight school. When was the last time they were sitting on their a** on a decnet day with nobody to fly with? Where I am, I am lucky enough to be handed a few students. But that still leaves me with time to spare. Personally, I'd rather be flying. I need the hours, the money, and its generally more interesting than watching the planes fly. If I can find a student to fly, guess who gets to teach them. I'm not making more money, flying more hours, and more interested. (And since I'm so busy, I can't scrub toilets either)

I do agree that any work done should be compensated for, but in the case of going out and attracting students, you as an instructor benefit directly from it. The type of people on this forum who are not willing to do that, I've seen at many flight schools. They're the ones complaining they have no students, or are not flying enough. Sometimes they complain about less senior instructors getting more students, when the senior one has been sitting around only flying 20 hours for the last month, yet doing nothing to increase his flyage. Then when the manager caves in and gives them more business, they have the guts to complain they're too busy to the low time guys trying to find work. It's disgusting. Yet that attitude brings this on somehow.

[Cat Driver]

Shitdisturber hit it bang on, it's a two way street.

Unfortunately there are very few two way streets in aviation.

In the final analysis it is the owner operators who are to blame, they are in a position to set the example because they decide what their company will be.

If they reward genuine efforts by their employees everyone benefits, if they treat their employees like cattle fu.k e'm do as little as possible for them and look for a good employer.

.

[Shiny Side Up]

Exactly, you can't expect your instructors to go out and bust their asses if you're not willing to do it yourself. In O/O's case I wonder how much time he spends standing around watching the intructors complain. If you want stuff done lead by example. If you want the instructors to get out there and sell your company for you show them you're willing to put something behind it as well. Its suprising how much you can get out of employees for but a small amount of input on your part. Like I said before happy employees are productive employees, no company ever got anywhere by cutting back on the people who were working for them. A couple hours pay at minimum wage is peanuts to most operators compared to the thousands of dollars of business they lose by not paying the price for good work. Its a case of tripping over hundred dollar bills to pick up pennies.

How much do Realtors make?

Zero, unless they do work.

End of discussion..

Well then lets pay our instructors a similar amount. For every new student
or customer they bring in they then get a percentage of the business that customer brings as opposed to their usual flying rate. What say 10%? In other words that's about $750 for every PPL plus whatever flying that customer does with the company. But IRL it doesn't work that way. The instructor makes his bit per hour while doing the licence, then its all profit for the operator when that student becomes a renter or a CPL student where a majority of the flying is solo time building.

The fact is when an instructor is out flogging the company he has no guarantee that he's going to profit from it, and secondly if you as the operator aren't willing to give him some back up - some good advertising, a deal on flying to flog, free stuff to hook a potential customer - he's going out there battling for you unarmed.

Here we'll remedy this problem.

We'll pay the instructors $8/hr. Whether they're flying, cleaning the toilet, changing a lightbulb, calling clients, calling new clients, standing outside handing out flyers. They'll make 8/hr..

You're on. As long as you also promise to pay like any other regular wage earner for the over time I work for putting in 60 or so hours a week, in other words time and a half for the 20 hours of overtime. Or why do you think most operators don't pay this way?

Now granted there are some lazy instructors out there, I've seen my share, but most are just trying to claw their way from the very bottom of the aviation world, spat on by all above them, they are signing on to do a thankless and hazardous job because of their love of flying. Think about it, here's people who want to get into aviation so bad that they're willing to go flying in an airplane with someone else in control who is only marginally skilled. Not only that, they're willing to risk financial ruin to do it. I mean for shit sakes a McJob is better paying, and you get free food.

Here's the bottom line. Leadership comes from the top. Whether you inspire your employees with support and encouragement, or you can take O/O's method and try to shame them into doing a better job.

[Cat Driver]

Flight instructors work for peanuts in many cases, yes I agree.

How many flight instructors can post the break down of where the hourly rate a customer pays to a flight school goes?

Try that and you may see where a lot of owners of small schools also work for peanuts.

So I'm waiting for an instructor to tell me the bottom line by breaking down where the money goes..

Cat

[Shiny Side Up]

No one ever said running a flight school was a get rich scheme. But it should be a cooperative effort between the owner and his employees, like any other business. As the owner you're the one largely responsible for getting the business for the company - through advertising, making sure you're competitive, making sure you're giving you people the proper stuff they need for their job. You're the one fronting the capital. Your employees on the other hand are responsible for keeping the work you get - customer service and by doing a good job to make sure they come back and if they come back they have a good impression so they throw more business your way.

Both sides help each other make the business work and become profitable. Unfortuantely a fair chunk of operators still run their business by the old rule: If you can't make money off of the customers, you make it off of the equipment, if you can't make it off the equipment you make it off of the employees.

And once they find that out, you won't be making any money at all.

[Cat Driver]

So tell me shiny side, how much of the hourly rate dual actually goes to the owner?


Just give me an estimate of the cost for the owner.

Cat