Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

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Victory
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by Victory »

While I'm not a fan of ACPA it strikes me that a lot of the people supporting the switch to ALPA are not actually Air Canada pilots. Are they after making things better for Air Canada pilots, or hoping to get a piece of what Air Canada pilots have for themselves by making a more level playing field.
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Lightchop
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by Lightchop »

Well personally aside from pay which is to be expected I have it better than AC pilots in many ways contractually. So not sure what you mean by that.

I'm just happy to see the large pilot groups all coming under one umbrella. It will inevitably make it easier to be one voice. That is, if AC wants to be part of the bigger picture.
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DanWEC
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by DanWEC »

Since it's within the unions' realm to dictate scope, I wonder if it's a possibility for ALPA (If chosen) to mandate that all subcontract flying on the Express end be done by ALPA airlines, which is now all the Express carriers, including Sky.
This would be a huge deal, and could prevent someone else setting up shop and undercutting everyone else.
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altiplano
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by altiplano »

AC pilots used to hold those keys as Jazz was the only approved teir 2 carrier. The TA1 crew and a dubious survey put an end to that and we gave it away.

To get it back would cost AC pilots and I imagine the company would say that it's a "no go item" anyway...
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Ratherbe
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by Ratherbe »

Actually Air Nova, Air Ontario, Air Alliance, NWT, and AirBC were the approved regionals when the scope language was written. It was done to protect mainline jobs not to give Jazz an upper hand in negotiations after they were merged.

As for ALPA, what have they done for their regionals in the USA? Have the mainline groups negotiated ALPA-only agreements for their regionals?
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Ratherbe
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by Ratherbe »

altiplano wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 5:42 am
AC pilots used to hold those keys as Jazz was the only approved teir 2 carrier. The TA1 crew and a dubious survey put an end to that and we gave it away.
Not correct. ACPA sold the “keys” which were of little value to the mainline pilots but crucial to AC management and secured much improved scope language (too bad we lost all the EMJ-175 jobs in arbitration). The new language has proven to be very effective and the only scope grievance that ACPA has filed since 2011 resulted in a $650,000 award which was distributed to the pilots.

Which reminds me, is it ALPA policy to distribute the awards from policy grievances to the membership or do they keep the proceeds like some other unions?
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altiplano
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by altiplano »

Sold? What did we get for SR on the island? Specifically what?
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Ratherbe
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by Ratherbe »

Had to do some digging to find what the TA had for scope improvements. The ACPA website has been erased of those now embarrassing newsletters highlighting the proposed changes to the ACPA contract in 2011.

Simply put:
-new ASM ratios restricted growth of Tier 2 and 3 carriers
-new ASM ratio calculated only on domestic/transborder ASM’s rather than systemwide ASM’s (limits domestic outsourcing)
-new limits on number of CRJ’s
-secured all EMJ 190/175 jobs at mainline
-new protections for flying in Joint Ventures
-462 possible new jobs at the LCC (see previous discussion)

Of course the TA was voted down but most of the language remained as negotiated. We lost all the EMJ175 jobs in FOS of course which cost us about $32,000,000. A tough lesson which I suspect was quickly forgotten.

So clearly, the monopoly which Jazz had on our regional flying was sold- not given away. Maybe ALPA could have got more but that would only have upset their own members at Jazz.

Ultimately, the Arbitrator in FOS had the final say on these new scope provisions, “Air Canada considered this to be a major concession in bargaining.”
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Fanblade
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by Fanblade »

Ratherbe wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:42 pm

The new language has proven to be very effective and the only scope grievance that ACPA has filed since 2011 resulted in a $650,000 award which was distributed to the pilots.
The new scope language emanating from TA1 was destroyed during FOS. The company cherry picked the removal of key protections. During the next set of negotiations scope was quite radically changed to the form we have now. Most of the important protections are now block hours and not ASM’s. The protections emulate US language to a larger degree.

TA1 scope language wasn’t effective. Not because it wasn’t good, but because it never came to be because it was gutted before implementation.
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altiplano
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by altiplano »

Ratherbe wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:56 pm
Had to do some digging to find what the TA had for scope improvements. The ACPA website has been erased of those now embarrassing newsletters highlighting the proposed changes to the ACPA contract in 2011.

Simply put:
-new ASM ratios restricted growth of Tier 2 and 3 carriers
-new ASM ratio calculated only on domestic/transborder ASM’s rather than systemwide ASM’s (limits domestic outsourcing)
-new limits on number of CRJ’s
-secured all EMJ 190/175 jobs at mainline
-new protections for flying in Joint Ventures
-462 possible new jobs at the LCC (see previous discussion)

Of course the TA was voted down but most of the language remained as negotiated. We lost all the EMJ175 jobs in FOS of course which cost us about $32,000,000. A tough lesson which I suspect was quickly forgotten.

So clearly, the monopoly which Jazz had on our regional flying was sold- not given away. Maybe ALPA could have got more but that would only have upset their own members at Jazz.

Ultimately, the Arbitrator in FOS had the final say on these new scope provisions, “Air Canada considered this to be a major concession in bargaining.”
No, it wasn't sold for that! Maybe you think you got that stuff... But really, the things you list we already had, or were concessions even!

First off, I don't believe those to be scope improvements... just a math shuffle to the corporation's ultimate benefit and securing things we already owned.

ASM ratios? While they pack more seats into fewer airplanes and run them on transcon stages? They can't fit anymore seats in those Express airplanes, so they get more while we do the same amount of flying...

score 1 for the company...

RJs/Express flying was already limited.

2 for the company...

Secured the 175/190? We already owned that flying... and how did that ultimately work out?

3 for the company... that's really like score 1000 for the company actually...

New protection for JV?
We already had scope on that flying that forced the corporation to seek resolution on that.

another win for the company.

462 jobs and 50+ fins to B-scale and you call that a gain?

that's the biggest win fit the company ever!

Nothing you list is a gain and must serves the corporation's needs.

So again, we got nothing for giving up something that was immensely valuable to the corporation.

You want to talk about tough lessons? The lesson is:
Don't send guppies in with sharks.
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altiplano
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by altiplano »

This is pretty much how it goes when the company deals with ACPA and our contract...

https://youtu.be/_dy68OhhKSY

a $2 tip with our own money and we say thank you...
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Ratherbe
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by Ratherbe »

As Fanblade points out FOS gutted the TA on scope. Obviously AC looked at the TA and decided what was the most important element to remove. Bye bye E175's. That and other smaller items resulted in the loss of $250,000,000 from our contract.

What got us into FOS?

Search "negotiations audit" on the ACPA website and you will find the detailed independent review.

The author stated: "During the last few rounds of negotiations, it is apparent that aggressive negotiations expectations fueled by a vocal minority of more militant voices with an anti-Company attitude has resulted in government imposed arbitrations and settlements that have worked against the pilot group and appears to have cost the Members a significant amount of credibility and compensation. Hopefully future leaders will learn from this experience and ensure that future labour negotiations and ratifications are freed from short term, negative emotional reactions and are conducted in a positive and professional manner."

So despite the FOS, we now have over 4,000 pilots, over 224 fins, higher paying jobs, secure pensions, etc. Will ALPA do a better job with Scope? Will they provide enough support to prevent "emotional reactions" from sewering our negotiations? Will anything change at all?
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altiplano
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by altiplano »

What fit us into FOS?

You are already at chicken, before the egg.

Vocal minority?

TA1 was voted down by the majority.

The leadership was recalled and resigned.

Had TA1 not gave so much, had we not had an out of touch leadership populated with daddy know best wannabe managers, the things in there would not have come to light. THAT'S where FOS was born...

Not to mention FOS violated our rights and of which the challenge was withdrawn once the aformentioned recalled/resigned individuals worked there way back in AND they negotiated a whole new contract out of nowhere to seal the fate...

That's why we lost.

Your report? Bought and paid for by the guilty IMO.

Hopefully the future leaders will learn to start going for a win, stop putting huge parts of our contract on the table, negotiate snap back clauses when we tit for tat trade and get the rug pulled out, and start making gains. Zero sum attitudes aren't what I want representing me.

Higher paying jobs? Where?
At B-scale?
Or 4 year flat pay guys right seat on widebodies for $65/hour?
Not to mention the loss of WB FO pay to supplement EMJ CAs whose positions are now going, going...
Or the RP pay that once supplement EMJ FOs in the PG that are now going, going... while the RPs enjoy the low pay still...
Or the 2% sub-inflation raises...
Or the extra 1.5% into an overfunded pension...
Or the extra 320 pay cuts...
Or... or... or...

It's like a horror reel...

Will ALPA provide more support?
Sure as shit worry trying because ACPA is doing a horrendous job...
Emotional reactions? Talk to the 27. If anyone's reaction sewered us, there you go.
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Ratherbe
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by Ratherbe »

Not my report. It was done by two independent outside experts. If you don't want to believe it fine, but be prepared for repeated results.
The 10 year deal was also approved by a strong majority of pilots. I was not a fan either but it went through.
In 2009, AC was broke and had only occasionally produced a profit in the previous decades. Now it looks like we might have reached the goal of sustained profitabilty. Besides being able to reinvest in the airline they can also afford to improve our contract. Hopefully we will have a good strategy in place before the current contract expires.
I know you feel victimized but luckily for me I do not. My salary has increased dramatically during the last five years following over a decade of stagnation and reduction. I know I'm not alone.
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atphat
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by atphat »

Ratherbe wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:04 pm
Not my report. It was done by two independent outside experts. If you don't want to believe it fine, but be prepared for repeated results.
The 10 year deal was also approved by a strong majority of pilots. I was not a fan either but it went through.
In 2009, AC was broke and had only occasionally produced a profit in the previous decades. Now it looks like we might have reached the goal of sustained profitabilty. Besides being able to reinvest in the airline they can also afford to improve our contract. Hopefully we will have a good strategy in place before the current contract expires.
I know you feel victimized but luckily for me I do not. My salary has increased dramatically during the last five years following over a decade of stagnation and reduction. I know I'm not alone.
Stop with the levelheadedness! Enough!
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Duke Point
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by Duke Point »

Ratherbe wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:04 pm
Not my report. It was done by two independent outside experts. If you don't want to believe it fine, but be prepared for repeated results.
The 10 year deal was also approved by a strong majority of pilots. I was not a fan either but it went through.
In 2009, AC was broke and had only occasionally produced a profit in the previous decades. Now it looks like we might have reached the goal of sustained profitabilty. Besides being able to reinvest in the airline they can also afford to improve our contract. Hopefully we will have a good strategy in place before the current contract expires.
I know you feel victimized but luckily for me I do not. My salary has increased dramatically during the last five years following over a decade of stagnation and reduction. I know I'm not alone.

Altiplano nailed it.

The only reason wages have "improved" is because many pilots moved up the position ladder at the expense of the pilot group as a unified whole. The Seniority system is in complete shambles. Do you ever wonder why a 320 Skipper position can be held by someone with 2.5 years on the property?? It means something is very, very rotten. The entire list is an upside-down mess. ACPA has chosen to resort to "group perk" negotiating to sell contracts.....vote buying. Long gone are the days of negotiating "system wide gains" with the intent of improving the situation for the entire group. I'm personally sick of ACPA's strategy of "here's what you as an individual/sub-group will get from this" bargaining as opposed to "here's what every pilot will get".

Unity doesn't mean a thing here anymore.....so enjoy your advancement and pay. It came at a severe cost to the entire group that will never, ever be recovered because of ACPA's mismanagement, collusion, and lack of vision.

DP.
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altiplano
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by altiplano »

Ratherbe wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:04 pm
Not my report. It was done by two independent outside experts. If you don't want to believe it fine, but be prepared for repeated results.
The 10 year deal was also approved by a strong majority of pilots. I was not a fan either but it went through.
In 2009, AC was broke and had only occasionally produced a profit in the previous decades. Now it looks like we might have reached the goal of sustained profitabilty. Besides being able to reinvest in the airline they can also afford to improve our contract. Hopefully we will have a good strategy in place before the current contract expires.
I know you feel victimized but luckily for me I do not. My salary has increased dramatically during the last five years following over a decade of stagnation and reduction. I know I'm not alone.
Hardly victimised, just pissed off that we left so much on the table and people like you are happy to forget where we've lost.

The current contract is actually a 3 year contract. The framework MOA is a 10 year rule book for what we can do if we have an impasse in negotiations.

If they can afford to improve our contract, why are we still giving? Even more erosion in 2017... We would have been better off in arbitration.

I agree we need a strategy for gains the next time the contract opens up in 2020. Coming up fast.
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skytrucker
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by skytrucker »

ACPA did more for me in the first few months
than what I worked under at GGN. Getting ALPA was a relief for the pilot
group working under the authoritarianism of OREA and for those not familiar with OREA it was an in-house association set up by GGN . All GGN has seen ALPA do is tame the beast by offering concessions , allowing GGN more time to delay negotiations. Pilots were promised safer working conditions , a collective voice and job security . Now 1900 pilots are very concerned about what will happen to their job status once or if an agreement is made . I am lucky that I got out and ACPA has shown me there is zero reason to merge with ALPA. ACPA has been proactive and on top of issues. I do worry that merging would cause a future mess because our competitors such as Westjet are ALPA. It will be messy . My gf was involved in a mess with CUPE. Mainline CUPE has strength but CUPE uses its name to entice smaller carriers to sign cards and join with false promises and higher dues . The Ggn CUPe contract is a disaster and flight attendants want to dissolve it because of the backhanded pressures and double dealing from one particular CUPE rep. Ggn pilots don’t want him in their cockpit anymore . Solidarity should be for the poor fas who believed the hype . In So I’m staying with ACPA , tried and true . I believe that ALPA should stay away .
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altiplano
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by altiplano »

skytrucker wrote:I am lucky that I got out and ACPA has shown me there is zero reason to merge with ALPA.
ACPA has been proactive and on top of issues.
How long have you have been at AC to observe ACPA on top of the issues?

Your are certainly entitled to your opinions, however I think your reasoning is flawed

I would hardly judge ALPA success based on 1 example at a tier 3 feeder shitshow with high turnover. Look at the success at comparable types, or sizes of airlines. United, Delta, Fedex, Alaska/Virgin... that's where we want to be going.

Further, your ideas of "competitive messses" because they represent other pilots groups is ridiculous. We aren't competitors with Westjet pilots, as United pilots aren't competitors with Delta pilots. Our employers may be competitors, but we are not. In fact we lift each other up when one sees gains. ALPA's success in pattern bargaining is a direct example.

Your CUPE story is irrelevant also. What a CUPE rep or CUPE strategy at a different company with a unrelated employee group has to do with us is exactly nothing.
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RVR6000
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by RVR6000 »

Haven’t we been voting in the ‘good guys’ lately. I can count at least 5, why hasn’t that changed anything within ACPA. MH was suppose to be our saviour, I even sent him all my shine points after his big speech, has he turned on us as well.

We’re in a Zero sum game till 2024, bringing in ALPA won’t magically changed our current contract. I guess the key is not let the union further erode our contract with these re-openers.

Some like to pretend our 10 year deal changed the course on AC’s profitability, it didn’t. It was the efficient 787 opening up more direct routes, cheap oil, and the high density at Rouge.
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Duke Point
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by Duke Point »

I sincerely hope that all pilots at AC ---DO THEIR HOMEWORK---and really look closely at ACPA's performance over the last 15 years. The simple lack of a single "snap back clause" in the face of massive concessions (hundreds of millions worth) have left the group divided and bankrupt as a negotiating unit. We could have fought FOS and likely WON....but ACPA put the "hard sell" on a crap 10 year 2% deal for a $10,000 "signing bonus" and a ridiculous "arbitrated" re-opener clause every three years....essentially flushing our right to ever dispute it down the toilet. The joke is on the 84% who bought it.....and the other 16% who didn't.

Take it from a guy who's been here for 20 years and seen every concessionary collusional move ACPA has made. The very best thing we can do for unity is------ kick this dud Union over a 1000 foot cliff and walk away------

We could not possibly do worse.

We can only hope that linking ourselves to real pilot groups like Delta and United through ALPA might wake some of us up to the reality of our situation. I'm sure pilots from those two united, honourable groups might have something to say about how badly ACPA has messed up over the last 15 years----- if we'd only let them.

There are plenty of pilots here starving for proper oversight and negotiators who are actually "real negotiators".

DP.
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altiplano
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by altiplano »

RVR6000 wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 4:10 pm
I guess the key is not let the union further erode our contract with these re-openers.
1 reopener down - massive concessions... 2 reopeners to go...

The NC chair that sold us on and gave away Rouge growth for pennies just got acclaimed YVR LEC vice chair, and will sit on the MEC now too... So it's not like guys that believe we should be making concessions are getting pushed out of the picture... ACPA doesn't work. What has ACPA accomplished in the last 15 years?
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Ratherbe
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by Ratherbe »

I doubt very much the court challenge would have won. Do you have a legal opinion? I’m sure ACPA did. Please don’t waste my dues on lost causes. Instead, maybe we should try to learn from our collective mistakes and actually try not to repeat them?

As was mentioned ACPA was formed because of our unhappiness with CALPA. Rising dues and almost bankrupt, they refused to seriously consider the AC pilots concern and soon the tail was wagging the dog. Trying to impose a merger on us was the last straw.

Up until 9/11 and the resulting recession, ACPA had been making steady gains since 1996. Sometimes a militant approach was taken but this always led to disappointments. We hardly got anything extra from our 10 day strike in ‘98 but the 2000 negotiated contract gave us a great scope clause, big signing bonuses and pension protections.

When CCAA arrived so did another attempt at militancy. We got our contract gutted far more than any other group.

Finally, our first chance to negotiate again in 2011 and we all know what happened (for those not here search on the acpa website: negotiations audit). Once again our tendancy to retreat to an aggressive approach without a solid strategy failed and we lost lots including a pension snapback.

So not surprising that ACPA has now taken an approach that favours stability and growth with a profitable employer. Could they be more aggressive getting gains? Maybe. Let see what the new guys have to say now that they are sitting at the MEC table.

I don’t see ALPA changing much regards to negotiations. We likely won’t stop allowing a militant miniority from leading us astray again with the predictable results.

However, what about dues and the financial future of ALPA, the limited influence we have on ALPA policies, and what internal pressures we would be under during the next merger?
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altiplano
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by altiplano »

Ratherbe wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:41 am
I doubt very much the court challenge would have won. Do you have a legal opinion? I’m sure ACPA did. Please don’t waste my dues on lost causes. Instead, maybe we should try to learn from our collective mistakes and actually try not to repeat them?
Why don't you think we would win? Everyone else wins that challenges this type of legislation. Here are a couple recent legal precedents:

CUPW

http://canliiconnects.org/en/summaries/42968

August 16, 2016

In a significant victory for the Canadian Union of Postal Workers, an Ontario Superior Court judge has found that the Harper government's back-to-work legislation prohibiting strikes and unilaterally imposing wage increases was a violation of the union's rights to freedom of association and expression under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. The judge declared the legislation of no force or effect retroactively.


Saskatchewan Federation of Labour

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saskatc ... skatchewan

The Canadian Supreme Court held that the Public Service Essential Services Act 2008 was an unwarranted interference with the right to strike and the right to collective bargaining, as previously elaborated in Health Services and Support – Facilities Subsector Bargaining Assn. v British Columbia[1] and Mounted Police Association of Ontario v Canada (Attorney General).[2] It was unconstitutional and violated the Canadian Charter section 2(d).

"You doubt very much", and that's the problem. Where are your legal opinions coming from? Why don't you think we would succeed.?

We have lawyers that are sitting on their tenure in ACPA and were happy to settle for costs... ie. pay themselves. If those guys weren't working for us they'd be in practice with Lionel Hutz...

You have a concessionary attitude that you don't think we deserve to make gains.

"Steady gains in '96"
What have you done for me LATELY. 20+ years ago? FCS be a break.

"great scope clause"
We operate more CPA flying/departures than any other network airline in North America. We have a B scale airline that is doing a growing proportion of our best flying. It's being chipped away at every time ACPA goes to the table... and even in between formal negotiations with unilaterally agreed MOAs between our Greivance/MEC chairs and the company and without membership input.

"protected our pension"
Are you joking?

"Ratherbe"... at the cottage? Maybe that's why you are missing the spiral dive we have been falling to pull out of.

I agree negotiated settlements are best, but not at any price, certainly not at the price of the continued decline.
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Ratherbe
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Re: Thoughts on ACPA Joining ALPA...

Post by Ratherbe »

Yes i see they wasted their money and didn't get anything for it - just a ruling confirming they were screwed by the government.

Our scope agreement in 2000 was industry leading so was the one in the TA but it was gutted because we ended up in arbitration.

The Pension RCAs in 2000 were a big win not a joke. How many ALPA pilots in the US were able to keep their DBs in place?

Your sad story is starting to sound a little old.

....floating down the Bow River.
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