Career First Officer at AC by design?

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Old fella
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by Old fella »

Well first of all mental disorder/disease can affect anybody at any time young/old and everyone in between. There are many causes and not associated with personal weakness nor character defects sadly the stigma associated is usually with the latter. Yes a complete recovery is possible and indeed has happened like any other condition or disease. Like many I read about the unfortunate AC F/O incident that happened few years back, I do believe it was subject to commentary here at the time it became public. I hope the individual in question got the medical assistance that was required and went on to have a productive life with support from AC itself and family/friends. When you get my age(touching close to 70) you get to see plenty. In my younger life mental issues were considered a laughing matter and sadly sufferers were shunned.
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cloak
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by cloak »

Old fella wrote: Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:01 pm ... In my younger life mental issues were considered a laughing matter and sadly sufferers were shunned.
Sadly that still seems to be the case in some circles, judging by the comments above who view passing a psych test as a sign of their superior skills and worthiness in life! One could argue that "arrogance" and "pride" are the real character defects, not suffering from an illness, physical or mental.
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altiplano
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by altiplano »

cloak wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:53 pm
Old fella wrote: Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:01 pm ... In my younger life mental issues were considered a laughing matter and sadly sufferers were shunned.
Sadly that still seems to be the case in some circles, judging by the comments above who view passing a psych test as a sign of their superior skills and worthiness in life! One could argue that "arrogance" and "pride" are the real character defects, not suffering from an illness, physical or mental.
Hardly. It's your bias that draws that conclusion.

It is what it is... corporations use them, governments use them, they exist - get over it. You never know why you didn't get hired... maybe you were outstanding in the psych test, but a reference sewered you, or your interview was less than the next guy, or the big one... in aggregate, the people interviewing around the same time as you, did a little better on this, a little better at that... more experience, education, better cog test, better reference...

I know a few great guys that never got hired here... I know a few doofuses that did... that's just how it goes... but it doesn't lessen the clinical science behind psych evals either... I'm not an expert, but the experts say they are useful tools... whatever.
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Dry Guy
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by Dry Guy »

Another factor is your sex and race, something you have zero control over. So there's no point in feeling bad when it could have been something as simple as what you were born as.
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landsky
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by landsky »

So much about nothing... the psych test was a non-event, in fact many in my class were called back to redo it because their answers could not generate an accurate score. They were then told that if their second test wasn't accurate enough that they would then meet with an AC Doctor and do an in person psych evaluation. Some people just don't perform well on these tests and they know it.

My point is, having gone through it recently, it is very clear that the test is not used as a means to "flunk" you or to give them an excuse not to hire you. If they are interviewing you then they want to hire you. If everything else is good and you simply had a bad performance on your psych eval then they will give you every opportunity to get through it, either through another version of the test or an in person meeting with the Doc. So if you are not hired I would suspect it was for reasons other than the psych eval... your interview wasn't the greatest, you were unprofessional, you did not come prepared with the documents they requested, a reference was poorly received or they simply interviewed people around the same time as you that were more qualified.

On mental health. In my short time at Air Canada I've been very impressed with how much this is stressed by both the company and ACPA, and for some of you to use examples in the news is absolutely ridiculous. You are being naive to think the intention of the psych exam is to completely prevent all future mental health problems. There are 4000 pilots at Air Canada and to expect them all to be of perfect mental health at all times is unrealistic... life happens.
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aV1aTOr
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by aV1aTOr »

landsky wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:17 am So much about nothing... the psych test was a non-event, in fact many in my class were called back to redo it because their answers could not generate an accurate score. They were then told that if their second test wasn't accurate enough that they would then meet with an AC Doctor and do an in person psych evaluation. Some people just don't perform well on these tests and they know it.

My point is, having gone through it recently, it is very clear that the test is not used as a means to "flunk" you or to give them an excuse not to hire you. If they are interviewing you then they want to hire you. If everything else is good and you simply had a bad performance on your psych eval then they will give you every opportunity to get through it, either through another version of the test or an in person meeting with the Doc. So if you are not hired I would suspect it was for reasons other than the psych eval... your interview wasn't the greatest, you were unprofessional, you did not come prepared with the documents they requested, a reference was poorly received or they simply interviewed people around the same time as you that were more qualified.

On mental health. In my short time at Air Canada I've been very impressed with how much this is stressed by both the company and ACPA, and for some of you to use examples in the news is absolutely ridiculous. You are being naive to think the intention of the psych exam is to completely prevent all future mental health problems. There are 4000 pilots at Air Canada and to expect them all to be of perfect mental health at all times is unrealistic... life happens.

Great post landsky. Especially the last paragraph.
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cloak
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by cloak »

altiplano wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:47 am
cloak wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:53 pm
Old fella wrote: Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:01 pm ... In my younger life mental issues were considered a laughing matter and sadly sufferers were shunned.
Sadly that still seems to be the case in some circles, judging by the comments above who view passing a psych test as a sign of their superior skills and worthiness in life! One could argue that "arrogance" and "pride" are the real character defects, not suffering from an illness, physical or mental.
Hardly. It's your bias that draws that conclusion.

It is what it is... corporations use them, governments use them, they exist - get over it. You never know why you didn't get hired... maybe you were outstanding in the psych test, but a reference sewered you, or your interview was less than the next guy, or the big one... in aggregate, the people interviewing around the same time as you, did a little better on this, a little better at that... more experience, education, better cog test, better reference...

I know a few great guys that never got hired here... I know a few doofuses that did... that's just how it goes... but it doesn't lessen the clinical science behind psych evals either... I'm not an expert, but the experts say they are useful tools... whatever.
I rest my case!
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Soar
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by Soar »

Thanks for the insight, but I find that pay hard to believe. Do you have any evidence to back that up? Pay stubs? Before or after tax? I'm assuming before.

Simply put, I need to see evidence of $220-240K/year. Not trying to be a jerk, but again, very hard to believe.
rudder wrote: Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:32 am There are AC 777 FO making $220-240k working less than 10 days per month. Given the marginal tax rates in Canada, a top scale WB FO can take home the same as a NB CA working 7-10 days less per month with senior vacation.

Individual choices.
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by atphat »

Soar wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:24 pm Thanks for the insight, but I find that pay hard to believe. Do you have any evidence to back that up? Pay stubs? Before or after tax? I'm assuming before.

Simply put, I need to see evidence of $220-240K/year. Not trying to be a jerk, but again, very hard to believe.
rudder wrote: Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:32 am There are AC 777 FO making $220-240k working less than 10 days per month. Given the marginal tax rates in Canada, a top scale WB FO can take home the same as a NB CA working 7-10 days less per month with senior vacation.

Individual choices.
New to the workforce? Who quotes salary after tax and deductions?

It doesn’t matter what you find hard to believe. No one is going to post a pay stub on this website ever.
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altiplano
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by altiplano »

Soar wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:24 pm Thanks for the insight, but I find that pay hard to believe. Do you have any evidence to back that up? Pay stubs? Before or after tax? I'm assuming before.

Simply put, I need to see evidence of $220-240K/year. Not trying to be a jerk, but again, very hard to believe.
rudder wrote: Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:32 am There are AC 777 FO making $220-240k working less than 10 days per month. Given the marginal tax rates in Canada, a top scale WB FO can take home the same as a NB CA working 7-10 days less per month with senior vacation.

Individual choices.


I know 320 FOs doing $200K, they are the few though... let alone 777 FOs... I know many doing well over $200K before tax.

Just flying your block, 777 FO would be close to $200K... add in training pay, and profit share you're cracking it...

One opportune overseas draft here or there paying over $400/hr gets you more pretty quickly...

YYZ-HKG-YYZ could pay nearly $12,500 for a 3 day trip at 12 year FO rate. Plus a couple hundred+ $ in per diems... do that a few times a year there you go. Or a bit of draft/drop making your regular flying pay 50% more...

Anyway might be hard for you to believe, but it doesn't make it not true... what's your experience or point of reference that you wouldn't believe it?
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by Lost in Saigon »

This is a typical 12 year pay B777 pay stub. Some B777 FOs are slightly higher because they are on "grandfathered" pay from the previous contract.

This year end stub reflects a November YYZ-HKG overtime trip and another OT trip earlier in the year. Those that do a lot of overtime can make a lot more.


pay stub dec 2018crop.jpg
pay stub dec 2018crop.jpg (212.98 KiB) Viewed 4984 times
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atphat
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by atphat »

No ESOP eh? Where’s your faith?

:lol:
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altiplano
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by altiplano »

That HKG trip on premium puts a nice cherry on top for your year!
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Joe Blow Schmo
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by Joe Blow Schmo »

Line 3 "Pilots flying pay" shows YTD 765 hours and and $192,257. Thats $251.30/hour. How do you achieve that? Year 12 777 FO pay is $180.28 day and $197.49 night. Add $6.55 international pay and even a 100% night and international schedule would only get you $204.04/hour.
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altiplano
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by altiplano »

Joe Blow Schmo wrote: Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:21 pm Line 3 "Pilots flying pay" shows YTD 765 hours and and $192,257. Thats $251.30/hour. How do you achieve that? Year 12 777 FO pay is $180.28 day and $197.49 night. Add $6.55 international pay and even a 100% night and international schedule would only get you $204.04/hour.
It just always says that. Mine is 765 too.

it's like an accounting thing or something...
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by Lost in Saigon »

Trying to figure it out makes my brain hurt. They pays me the money, and I don't try to figure it out....
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by Puffpuffpass »

Lost in Saigon wrote: Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:25 pm This is a typical 12 year pay B777 pay stub. Some B777 FOs are slightly higher because they are on "grandfathered" pay from the previous contract.

This year end stub reflects a November YYZ-HKG overtime trip and another OT trip earlier in the year. Those that do a lot of overtime can make a lot more.



pay stub dec 2018crop.jpg
This is what every pilot who bid the 777 F/O, while in flat pay, needs to have a good long look at.....because you will be making nowhere near that, enjoy chatting with the crew about there boats and Porsche's while you hope they cover the bus tip on arrival.......thats a $200K seat that you just offered to do for $60G's. Literally every crew member on the plane will be making as much as you....most in the back end will be making more than you on an Asia pairing. Way to go !!!
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by Redwine »

Not to mention a Southwest newhire makes more than a 5 year pilot at AC and works fewer hours. Pathetic. As is that pay stub above. An American 787 FO makes 350.000 US ~(464.000CAD) and has more time off and better working condiotions.
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by Shady McSly »

Canada has pretty good food banks though..
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danield
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Re: Career First Officer at AC by design?

Post by danield »

Puffpuffpass wrote: Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:46 am
Lost in Saigon wrote: Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:25 pm This is a typical 12 year pay B777 pay stub. Some B777 FOs are slightly higher because they are on "grandfathered" pay from the previous contract.

This year end stub reflects a November YYZ-HKG overtime trip and another OT trip earlier in the year. Those that do a lot of overtime can make a lot more.



pay stub dec 2018crop.jpg
This is what every pilot who bid the 777 F/O, while in flat pay, needs to have a good long look at.....because you will be making nowhere near that, enjoy chatting with the crew about there boats and Porsche's while you hope they cover the bus tip on arrival.......thats a $200K seat that you just offered to do for $60G's. Literally every crew member on the plane will be making as much as you....most in the back end will be making more than you on an Asia pairing. Way to go !!!
My Year 3 flat pay yielded 113k last year with a little bit of overtime and I made over 80k my first year and 90k my 2nd in the right seat of the EMJ. I have recently "offered" to take a WB FO position with the company and am happy with my decision. I work half as much as I did on the narrow body and I will gladly collect my 200k in 11 months time as a block holder while my colleagues elect to sit on reserve at the bottom of the 320CA list.

Also, for somebody on flat pay who does NOT want to work any overtime a quick way to make an extra $600/month net (equivalent to $900 gross, or $10,800 annually) is to bid a WB position and collect the additional perdiems.

Faulting somebody for solitifying a guaranteed pay raise in 4 years while the position is available to them is exactly what is wrong with Canadian Pilots! Flat pay was voted on and passed by Canadian Pilots! I am just doing the best I can with the hand I was dealt. I still feel very fortunate to be here and will continue to fight to increase wages and working conditions for everyone, including those hired after me. I did not invent Flat pay, I am simply managing it with the knowledge that my pay will double in 11 months time.
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