AC New hires please use your WB bid

[Kosiw]

Reap what you sow...

[C-GGGQ]

Looks like the YYZ 77 and 87 spots went unfilled. Very interesting times around here.

Forgive my ignorance, but doesn't all that mean is everything else got bid first? (Ie more positions available than pilots?) We've gotten into why that is on here, but eventually, they'll hire enough that you won't be able to have them unbid? Or is that not how the system works at all?

[schnitzel2k3]

As ze french would say, 'incroyable'.

Rock and a hard place only having one company in Canadian aviation that pays pilots a decent pension.

Too bad for those pilots with a more mature single income home life (because daycare is mega expensive) who have to decide on either having a solid pension, which also likely means taking their family to the food bank for the next 4 years if they can't bid NB kapitan in under 24 months AND pass said upgrade, all while chilling on reserve for the foreseeable future...

OR stick with a self managed contribution plan, make a decent salary with a significant but capped growth opportunity and maintain a relatively good, self prescribed lifestyle, minus travel bennies (but at least you can afford to pay for said tickets).

Granted there are games to be played, as posted above, if you can score the Rouge spots which seem to be few and far between at course selection, you can make money by picking up some draft / OT.

AC pilots, when it comes time to negotiate pay, do everyone a favour (because the industry unfortunately hinges on your salaries), fix that starting pay, and I mean, DOUBLE year 1 & 2 for starters.

S.

[Ki-ll]

OR stick with a self managed contribution plan, make a decent salary with a significant but capped growth opportunity and maintain a relatively good, self prescribed lifestyle, minus travel bennies (but at least you can afford to pay for said tickets).

Don't forget to mention having to look for a job every couple of years when the airplane you fly migrates from one end of YYZ to another. Oh, you are the last to learn about where the said airplane goes too.

[cloak]

There is no question that 4 years of flat pay are not justified as a new hire is on probation for only one year and in training a lot less. A new pilot is contributing fully before the first year's end and therefore the pay should reflect it. Air Canada has been fortunate to attract pilots from most other airlines due to reasons mentioned, but market forces could change that quickly and Air Canada would be wise to increase the entry pay to market standards.

[schnitzel2k3]

OR stick with a self managed contribution plan, make a decent salary with a significant but capped growth opportunity and maintain a relatively good, self prescribed lifestyle, minus travel bennies (but at least you can afford to pay for said tickets).

Don't forget to mention having to look for a job every couple of years when the airplane you fly migrates from one end of YYZ to another. Oh, you are the last to learn about where the said airplane goes too.

It can be frustrating, particularly if you liked the flying with said crew and ownership group. Most (not all) pilots I know, and I know a few, were happy for the change - some of the ones I knew upgraded not just in size but seat too (light jet captain to large jet captain). In a couple circumstances they went from on-call to a self managed rotation. Others were unhappy with their situation and made the choice to move and chase the cheddar, happiness still to be determined.

In a tighter market one might be nervous, but for now and the foreseeable future, charter is an...OK alternative - long term its a crap shoot though, and at retirement, there is no doubt that an AC pilot will walk away with more cheddar, but what have they traded over the course of their career for that?

I am also hearing fewer people are seeing the NB captain as a good solution to progress right away at AC because you burn a bid on a slot very few people want. Work life is very challenging and some after year 5/6 walk away from BOTL captain on the NBs to go mid seniority FO for the work life balance most were looking for in the first place.

Hmmm so some guys are willing to take an ~80k+ bath, and wait another ~10 years to bid left on the NBs, only to get back to normality. Now that's saying something in bold.

S.

[Ki-ll]

I am also hearing fewer people are seeing the NB captain as a good solution to progress right away at AC because you burn a bid on a slot very few people want. Work life is very challenging and some after year 5/6 walk away from BOTL captain on the NBs to go mid seniority FO for the work life balance most were looking for in the first place.

Hmmm so some guys are willing to take an ~80k+ bath, and wait another ~10 years to bid left on the NBs, only to get back to normality. Now that's saying something in bold.

S.

I think that says a lot about flexibility offered by the operation. Picking your type work and income to fit your lifestyle at that moment in time.
As far as airline guys trading something more than charter guys for the bigger pension? Not sure that's the case but we can talk about it ad nauseam. I am sure best charter jobs pay well, pilots have decent schedule and vacation, they get to fly mechanically sound airplanes which they can snag and expect said sangs to be repaired, owners are not lunatics who demand to know why this month's cellphone bill is $50 more than the previous one. What if you didn't get the best charter job?

[Daniel Cooper]

Is widebody FO really such a bad job though? I just wonder if the motivation of those deriding it comes from the fact it used to take 10+ years to achieve the position and now it's going to new hires. There might be some jealousy that is causing their statements to be negative. What's so bad about a job where you often do 1 sector a day and spend half the time sleeping in the bunk? You also gain skill, and importantly don't lose skill, that might happen if you took a relief pilot position instead.

There is more pressure though that's for sure. Landing a 200 tonne jet is going to get the heart beating. Especially knowing any error is going to be international news. But with that is going to come job satisfaction, something that I wonder if relief pilots have.

[schnitzel2k3]

I am also hearing fewer people are seeing the NB captain as a good solution to progress right away at AC because you burn a bid on a slot very few people want. Work life is very challenging and some after year 5/6 walk away from BOTL captain on the NBs to go mid seniority FO for the work life balance most were looking for in the first place.

Hmmm so some guys are willing to take an ~80k+ bath, and wait another ~10 years to bid left on the NBs, only to get back to normality. Now that's saying something in bold.

S.

I think that says a lot about flexibility offered by the operation. Picking your type work and income to fit your lifestyle at that moment in time.
As far as airline guys trading something more than charter guys for the bigger pension? Not sure that's the case but we can talk about it ad nauseam. I am sure best charter jobs pay well, pilots have decent schedule and vacation, they get to fly mechanically sound airplanes which they can snag and expect said sangs to be repaired, owners are not lunatics who demand to know why this month's cellphone bill is $50 more than the previous one. What if you didn't get the best charter job?

The question that births from your question is; what defines best? I think that is individually based, but one would imagine that pay is above average, scheduled with multiple crew and interesting layovers. There are a few flight departments I can think of with that setup, but openings are usually filled very quickly.

There is no doubt within the scope of a national organization over a 30+ year career that one will find their niche. The next question therefore is how do we solve the first 4 years within said organization so it is never the punchline within said industry, without disrupting the careers of those with 20-30 years within said organization.

S.

[infiniteregulus]

If they changed the pay on the first 4 years to be more or modified flat pay to 2 years, would they retroactively pay those who did the full 4? Otherwise I don't see those guys passing their vote.

[Lightchop]

If they changed the pay on the first 4 years to be more or modified flat pay to 2 years, would they retroactively pay those who did the full 4? Otherwise I don't see those guys passing their vote.

That's not really how it it works.

And if those people vote no, they're hypocrites.

If Jazz all of a sudden got raises for new hires, and nothing for the Sr pilots it would still pass. Because everyone knows it's for the greater good. And if for some reason it didn't, all that Captains I did with over the years saying how it needs to change and they don't support the low pay were all liars.

[schnitzel2k3]

If they changed the pay on the first 4 years to be more or modified flat pay to 2 years, would they retroactively pay those who did the full 4? Otherwise I don't see those guys passing their vote.

The guys who already did their 4 likely only care about seniority now and schedule. By making the starting pay more attractive, you'll likely never NOT see a row of pilots behind you.

Not only that, the experience of pilots will likely remain high so as a senior 777 captain will likely never be paired with a fresh off indoc FO, a third their age.

S.

[Tail-Chaser]

Is widebody FO really such a bad job though? I just wonder if the motivation of those deriding it comes from the fact it used to take 10+ years to achieve the position and now it's going to new hires. There might be some jealousy that is causing their statements to be negative. What's so bad about a job where you often do 1 sector a day and spend half the time sleeping in the bunk? You also gain skill, and importantly don't lose skill, that might happen if you took a relief pilot position instead.

There is more pressure though that's for sure. Landing a 200 tonne jet is going to get the heart beating. Especially knowing any error is going to be international news. But with that is going to come job satisfaction, something that I wonder if relief pilots have.

Wide body FO is a great job. The problem isn't with the flying, it's with being junior and on flat pay. From my understanding, most people bid on a wide body gig when they have decent seniority to hold a schedule, so if you got forced into that position as a new hire, you'll be bumped down every time so you'll likely stay on reserve for a long time. The reserve rules aren't overly generous. The other problem is, you make no additional money for that additional pressure. The Relief pilot sitting behind you could very well be making more than you once you factor the per diem money they get once they have a block. How is that fair?

[Ki-ll]

The question that births from your question is; what defines best? I think that is individually based, but one would imagine that pay is above average, scheduled with multiple crew and interesting layovers. There are a few flight departments I can think of with that setup, but openings are usually filled very quickly.

There is no doubt within the scope of a national organization over a 30+ year career that one will find their niche. The next question therefore is how do we solve the first 4 years within said organization so it is never the punchline within said industry, without disrupting the careers of those with 20-30 years within said organization.

S.

Well, that's just it. What is best when it comes to flying jobs?
Solving this first 4 year pay problem would be great. Is this the biggest issue inside AC that needs to be solved? I am not so sure. For some reason everyone outside AC is hung up on that particular issue though.

[JohnnyHotRocks]

Because that is the major issue that will affect every single Future AC pilot. It is the main reason that many of us with experience turn down the job. Can’t possibly afford it.

[schnitzel2k3]

The question that births from your question is; what defines best? I think that is individually based, but one would imagine that pay is above average, scheduled with multiple crew and interesting layovers. There are a few flight departments I can think of with that setup, but openings are usually filled very quickly.

There is no doubt within the scope of a national organization over a 30+ year career that one will find their niche. The next question therefore is how do we solve the first 4 years within said organization so it is never the punchline within said industry, without disrupting the careers of those with 20-30 years within said organization.

S.

Well, that's just it. What is best when it comes to flying jobs?
Solving this first 4 year pay problem would be great. Is this the biggest issue inside AC that needs to be solved? I am not so sure. For some reason everyone outside AC is hung up on that particular issue though.

I am sure all those pilots past year 4 are finding out there are other 'fish to fry', likely issues regarding reserve, but for everyone else in this industry, ACs 'Navajo captain' starting wages affect ALL salaries by dragging down industry averages. It's not the charter companies, or LCCs and ULCCs, dragging down the industry, they, in many cases, pay more for FOs.

That's why everyone outside AC is hung up on flatpay. And why AC can't seem to find pilots for the WBs.

S.

[infiniteregulus]

If they changed the pay on the first 4 years to be more or modified flat pay to 2 years, would they retroactively pay those who did the full 4? Otherwise I don't see those guys passing their vote.

That's not really how it it works.

And if those people vote no, they're hypocrites.

If Jazz all of a sudden got raises for new hires, and nothing for the Sr pilots it would still pass. Because everyone knows it's for the greater good. And if for some reason it didn't, all that Captains I did with over the years saying how it needs to change and they don't support the low pay were all liars.

Just feel like if 1500+ pilots went through 4 years of flat pay, and after the retirements dwindle out the upper ranks, a VAST majority of bodies on property would have gone through flat pay. When the next negotiations comes around, human nature would dictate that they won't fight the 4 year flat pay unless they get something back in return, since they all went through it themselves. Obviously it's not a democracy with regards to hiring, but it COULD present itself one day.

[schnitzel2k3]

That would be an incredibly ego-centric and selfish mentality, and one that would absolutely decimate the possibility of improving pilot pay within the Canadian aviation industry.

Not only that, but it would likely continue to harm the attractiveness of airline flying in Canada, thereby reducing interest at the grassroots level of aviation, exacerbating the 'shortage' without any measurable benefit in salary or work life.

S.

[Lightchop]

If they changed the pay on the first 4 years to be more or modified flat pay to 2 years, would they retroactively pay those who did the full 4? Otherwise I don't see those guys passing their vote.

That's not really how it it works.

And if those people vote no, they're hypocrites.

If Jazz all of a sudden got raises for new hires, and nothing for the Sr pilots it would still pass. Because everyone knows it's for the greater good. And if for some reason it didn't, all that Captains I did with over the years saying how it needs to change and they don't support the low pay were all liars.

Just feel like if 1500+ pilots went through 4 years of flat pay, and after the retirements dwindle out the upper ranks, a VAST majority of bodies on property would have gone through flat pay. When the next negotiations comes around, human nature would dictate that they won't fight the 4 year flat pay unless they get something back in return, since they all went through it themselves. Obviously it's not a democracy with regards to hiring, but it COULD present itself one day.

I understand the point you make but I still somewhat disagree. I think there are enough pilots at AC or in my example at Jazz that want to see the profession get better for everyone. I for example am no longer on the shitty FO pay, but I will still fight to have it fixed even though it doesn't effect me anymore. It might be an issue, maybe... but I want to believe that the group as a whole would see the benefit in fixing some of these big problems we have an making this a better career for everyone who decides to pursue it.

[JohnnyHotRocks]

Unfortunately history has shown that those at the top will vote to improve life for themselves. Screw the guys who aren’t even on the property yet. Everybody has to pay their dues.