Oh boy, that didn't take long - enter the marginalizing character assassinations, that will soothe your hurt feelings and bruised egos.
New Arbitrated Contract
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
Re: New Arbitrated Contract
-
- Rank 1
- Posts: 39
- Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:45 am
Re: New Arbitrated Contract
Is there a B scale for Westjet new hires or for Swoop new hires and flows? Do all of the encore flow throughs go to swoop first?
Re: New Arbitrated Contract
I don't think it will cause some mass exodus like the kids above are talking about. Remember Encore still has to ratify their own collective agreement. There are a lot of pros in this deal that I am pretty sure the new guys at AC wish they had.
Re: New Arbitrated Contract
Vacation credit looks ok. Socialized bidding perhaps.... although it’s very short sighted. Other than aspiring to earn Flair wages at Swoop what do AC guys/girls wish they had?
Re: New Arbitrated Contract
I can't seem to find and don't see on here, any actual details on the contract.
-
- Rank 0
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:59 pm
Re: New Arbitrated Contract
Alpa Male / CAAC / etc.Alpa Male wrote: ↑Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:46 am Oh, the irony! I'm sitting here recalling all the conversations that I've had over the past few years, with all 20-something-year-olds FO's, "educating" me on proper WAWCON and what ALPA was going to deliver. Telling me that we're on course for a 40% pay hike and lots of goodies. Pulling up their "buddies" pay stubs at AC and reciting DELTA contract language at will. Such convincing little buggers, I'll give them that. Smug, but very convincing. Well, maybe those crusty old senior pilots weren't so batshit crazy after all - "Careful what you wish for...hmmmmmmmm." Ring a bell???
Don't get me wrong; I wasn't a big fan of the WJPA. It was corrupt and outdated. I'll take ALPA's structure and resources any day, but ALPA certainly have not demonstrated negotiating dominance, that's for sure. ALPA hasn't delivered anything that the WJPA couldn't. Except for reserve; the WJPA couldn't achieve that!
I think you can consider this a "Victory Neutral" contract for you. With yesterday's contract announcement, you:
- WON on your prediction of disappointment with an ALPA-delivered product; but,
- LOST on your (admit it - a tad long winded!) prediction of the end of the One List.
Equilibrium is achieved.
Re: New Arbitrated Contract
One list nor Scope isn’t worth the paper it’s printed on as long as Swoop can grow to 30 tails with a B scale.
1:1 YOS won’t pay much except for those already upgraded and can hold onto a Teal tail.
WestJet parent group is a good place for people I their early 20s. Most of this will be sorted by the time they’re in their 30s.
I don’t think the Union made any mistakes and I support them.
We lost big.
Encore won’t even be able to support the flow.
Lots of guys will stay Teal FO and not bother going Pink Captain.
Some guys will go Pink and then leave after racking up some PIC.
All of this combined will just make room for more garbage off the street into Pink Captain spots.
All said and done - Tbalx made a stupid move going to Flair.
Merry Christmas everyone.
Have a couple trips to do then I’m getting smashed on cheap beer over Christmas.
JJJ
1:1 YOS won’t pay much except for those already upgraded and can hold onto a Teal tail.
WestJet parent group is a good place for people I their early 20s. Most of this will be sorted by the time they’re in their 30s.
I don’t think the Union made any mistakes and I support them.
We lost big.
Encore won’t even be able to support the flow.
Lots of guys will stay Teal FO and not bother going Pink Captain.
Some guys will go Pink and then leave after racking up some PIC.
All of this combined will just make room for more garbage off the street into Pink Captain spots.
All said and done - Tbalx made a stupid move going to Flair.
Merry Christmas everyone.
Have a couple trips to do then I’m getting smashed on cheap beer over Christmas.
JJJ
Re: New Arbitrated Contract
I'm pretty happy with the move to Flair. No regrets, it's night and day.jjj wrote: ↑Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:57 am One list nor Scope isn’t worth the paper it’s printed on as long as Swoop can grow to 30 tails with a B scale.
1:1 YOS won’t pay much except for those already upgraded and can hold onto a Teal tail.
WestJet parent group is a good place for people I their early 20s. Most of this will be sorted by the time they’re in their 30s.
I don’t think the Union made any mistakes and I support them.
We lost big.
Encore won’t even be able to support the flow.
Lots of guys will stay Teal FO and not bother going Pink Captain.
Some guys will go Pink and then leave after racking up some PIC.
All of this combined will just make room for more garbage off the street into Pink Captain spots.
All said and done - Tbalx made a stupid move going to Flair.
Merry Christmas everyone.
Have a couple trips to do then I’m getting smashed on cheap beer over Christmas.
JJJ
Like I said earlier several times no arbitrator is going to hand a windfall contract to a union, especially not on a first contract. The expectations of the pilot group (lead by the MEC) were unrealistic which is too bad since it appears to be a relatively decent first contract from what I've seen.
Ironic that Swoop will likely have to go OTS again.
Re: New Arbitrated Contract
Ironic that it only takes 26 pilots to @#$! an entire industry for a decade.
JJJ
JJJ
Re: New Arbitrated Contract
Very sad to hear that the news is disappointing, I had strong hopes the current environment wouldn’t reward management for violating a written agreement.
Could someone post more specific details of won/lost items, I don’t think your violating anything as CBAs are public knowledge, it just takes time to get them up to date.
Also, I’m very curious if the “pay freeze” vs “pay protection” was clarified?
Obviously knowing whether or not the “26” scabs took some lumps over this would be a small victory and small consolation to your(WJ Pilots) supporters.
Could someone post more specific details of won/lost items, I don’t think your violating anything as CBAs are public knowledge, it just takes time to get them up to date.
Also, I’m very curious if the “pay freeze” vs “pay protection” was clarified?
Obviously knowing whether or not the “26” scabs took some lumps over this would be a small victory and small consolation to your(WJ Pilots) supporters.
Re: New Arbitrated Contract
..... those that are safe in the 90th percentile. Not for us 10% that will be forced over to swoop unfortunately.Lots of guys will stay Teal FO and not bother going Pink Captain.
Re: New Arbitrated Contract
Labour groups can’t win anymore. If you guys had called WJs bluff and went on strike it would have been a matter of hours before the government would have legislated you back to work. The bar keeps dropping. ULCC means one thing only... Ultra Low Cost Crews and watch the pink tails multiply with lower and lower time OTS crews. I’ll be wondering how much PIC time will be sitting up front in the coming years.
Re: New Arbitrated Contract
26 pilots are to blame for the state of the Canadian industry?
I think that the state of the canadian aviation industry goes a lot deeper than that. We were the worst paid pilots in the world long before swoop came along.
From where I sit, and judging from the posts here on Avcanada, if the entire westjet pilot group acts in a way as the ones on here, you can all blame yourself for the predicament you are in.
But, yes, much easier to blame others isn't it without taking any responsibility for yourself.
Re: New Arbitrated Contract
ALPA has nothing to do with it. The contract was arbitrated. Plus the union is only as good as the people you vote to represent you
Re: New Arbitrated Contract
Munzil,munzil wrote: ↑Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:41 pm26 pilots are to blame for the state of the Canadian industry?
I think that the state of the canadian aviation industry goes a lot deeper than that. We were the worst paid pilots in the world long before swoop came along.
From where I sit, and judging from the posts here on Avcanada, if the entire westjet pilot group acts in a way as the ones on here, you can all blame yourself for the predicament you are in.
But, yes, much easier to blame others isn't it without taking any responsibility for yourself.
First, I’m not a WJ pilot so take what I’m about to say for what it’s worth, an opinion only.
WJ pilots had scope in their agreement and I’m willing to wager it wasn’t handed to them without something in return, they would’ve given the corporation something for it. So, the fact WJ was rewarded for violating that agreement is really frustrating.
Imagine what would’ve happened for one second if those 26 douchebags didn’t accept the wages on offer, they set the clock back years for WJ pilots with their actions, no doubt about it. That will have an effect on the whole industry, but maybe a mass exodus will send a message, I suspect AC won’t have any trouble filling openings now.
Re: New Arbitrated Contract
I think the win for the Encore seniority list will really hurt WJ's ability to attract new FO's OTS. And good!!!
Those guys are there with the promise of going to WJ, and they should get it.
Now, who wants to go directly to WJ as an FO when you'll be trodden over for the next 10 years by people flowing over from Encore and perpetually stuck at the bottom of a very long list? That sounds like an absolutely terrible career decision.
Those guys are there with the promise of going to WJ, and they should get it.
Now, who wants to go directly to WJ as an FO when you'll be trodden over for the next 10 years by people flowing over from Encore and perpetually stuck at the bottom of a very long list? That sounds like an absolutely terrible career decision.
Re: New Arbitrated Contract
Contract Arbitration is, in general, a losing proposition for labour. So, suggestion that the bargaining agent is to blame for the result is less credible than some would suggest. Of greater relevance is the process that preceded the requirement to submit to arbitration and the terms of reference for the arbitration itself.
What has become more and more obvious is that in Canada the politics and the process is stacked against pilot labour and that the cost advantage held by CDN carriers over their US and global competitors will continue to grow.
Hopefully the WJ pilots will have a more reasonable opportunity at the expiry of this arbitrated agreement to craft terms that are more favourable to the goals of the membership and more in line with the trends in the piloting profession outside of Canada.
And hopefully WJ management will realize that this may seem like a short term victory, but may manifest itself as a long term loss.
What has become more and more obvious is that in Canada the politics and the process is stacked against pilot labour and that the cost advantage held by CDN carriers over their US and global competitors will continue to grow.
Hopefully the WJ pilots will have a more reasonable opportunity at the expiry of this arbitrated agreement to craft terms that are more favourable to the goals of the membership and more in line with the trends in the piloting profession outside of Canada.
And hopefully WJ management will realize that this may seem like a short term victory, but may manifest itself as a long term loss.
-
- Rank 4
- Posts: 294
- Joined: Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:54 am
Re: New Arbitrated Contract
The problem is that Canadian pilots don’t have the balls to stand up for a downward spiraling ratification of new and un-improved contracts. Look at France and how they went nuts after a fuel tax increase was introduced. Why did nobody say anything when the shitty B scale at Jazz came in, like the French did to the tax hike?
If this what is happening in the Canadian aviation industry, happened in France, the outcome would most likely be a lot different. For those in the negotiation rooms and working at Westjet and the unions, for god sake DO SOMETHING about it! Pull up your big boy pants and dust off that “model UN” bargaining experience you acquired in university that supposidely made you such a qualified pilot after all. I’m disappointed in the never ending downward spiral in Canada. I would like to start a family but don’t see this happening anytime soon as I can barely afford to even pay for basic bills. Canada: don’t be surprised that you can’t fill your cockpit seats in two to three years time. End of rant.
If this what is happening in the Canadian aviation industry, happened in France, the outcome would most likely be a lot different. For those in the negotiation rooms and working at Westjet and the unions, for god sake DO SOMETHING about it! Pull up your big boy pants and dust off that “model UN” bargaining experience you acquired in university that supposidely made you such a qualified pilot after all. I’m disappointed in the never ending downward spiral in Canada. I would like to start a family but don’t see this happening anytime soon as I can barely afford to even pay for basic bills. Canada: don’t be surprised that you can’t fill your cockpit seats in two to three years time. End of rant.