New Arbitrated Contract

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Rowdy
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by Rowdy »

FOD_Vacuum wrote: Sat Dec 22, 2018 2:03 pm . Canada: don’t be surprised that you can’t fill your cockpit seats in two to three years time. End of rant.
More like 6-12 months. I've flown with multiple FO's who are waiting to see the actual contract as to whether or not they're going to stay at the regionals or return (with bonuses and higher pay) to their previous employers. Many are also bidding the jet to leave for overseas. There will be a mass exodus across all the canadian carriers if this doesn't improve.

We are nearing an accident from inexperienced crews. When that happens.. I hope the public and our organized groups DEMAND better standards for pilot training, experience requirements and fatigue rules.
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Bacunayagua
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by Bacunayagua »

I don't really see anything concretely indicating the status of the "one list". The 7 page release has one mere line indicating:

>"One-List" LOU to preserve status quo re: Encore flow/seniority recognition is in progress

Just prior to that it mentions that all Encore pilots that have already flowed into mainline, will keep their mainline seniority. Doesn't that statement conflict with the claim that the one -list is still alive? How would Encore pilots already at mainline, keep their seniority against someone who has deferred an Encore to Mainline upgrade ahead of them?

There seems to be a lot of posts here confidently claiming that the "one-list" has prevailed. But all I see is a little snippet claiming it is still in progress.
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lostaviator
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by lostaviator »

mbav8r wrote: Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:17 pm Very sad to hear that the news is disappointing, I had strong hopes the current environment wouldn’t reward management for violating a written agreement.
Could someone post more specific details of won/lost items, I don’t think your violating anything as CBAs are public knowledge, it just takes time to get them up to date.
Also, I’m very curious if the “pay freeze” vs “pay protection” was clarified?
Obviously knowing whether or not the “26” scabs took some lumps over this would be a small victory and small consolation to your(WJ Pilots) supporters.
The CBA isn't "complete" yet. He ruled on the outstanding items and now ALPA/WJ will sit down in the new year to finalize the document.

Some main points:

FOUR year term (ouch)
Pay based of of current level with annual 2% bumps
Trip RIGS
Lost unlimited sick time
30 tails can go to Swoop
Only 90% of current "WJ" positions are protected in the future
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goingnowherefast
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by goingnowherefast »

No wonder there's a pilot shortage, even the 2nd national airline is doing their utmost best to @#$! over their pilots. Who the hell wants to be a pilot when the "best" companies treat their pilots this poorly.

Good luck with recruiting WJ management, sure won't be seeing my resume.
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citizenbanana
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by citizenbanana »

Could always go to Georgian
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Observer
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by Observer »

Pension

"Committee per ALPA proposal"

What does that mean? That the pilots will have a committee to talk about it? Or did you actually get some sort of retirement scheme? Any new Company money?
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Dizzy D
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by Dizzy D »

Bacunayagua wrote: Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:23 pm I don't really see anything concretely indicating the status of the "one list". The 7 page release has one mere line indicating:

>"One-List" LOU to preserve status quo re: Encore flow/seniority recognition is in progress

Just prior to that it mentions that all Encore pilots that have already flowed into mainline, will keep their mainline seniority. Doesn't that statement conflict with the claim that the one -list is still alive? How would Encore pilots already at mainline, keep their seniority against someone who has deferred an Encore to Mainline upgrade ahead of them?

There seems to be a lot of posts here confidently claiming that the "one-list" has prevailed. But all I see is a little snippet claiming it is still in progress.
The one list is completely in the hands of the company now to return the LOU. They have been busy with other affairs recently, so I imagine we will get the LOU back in the next month???... I can’t see the company wanting to screw over 550 pilots at Encore for no reason. There would be a pile of us that would go back to do 703/704 work before sticking around with no number. Stranger things have happened I guess.
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Inverted2
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by Inverted2 »

citizenbanana wrote: Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:35 pm Could always go to Georgian
I heard a rumour they're hiring. :lol:
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Let’s Go Brandon
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by Inverted2 »

If it's not 1 list then the Encore pilots are screwed over. If it is 1 seniority list how will they hire 737 FOs?

No one in their right mind would go. You would be stuck at the bottom forever and never see the left seat at mainline.
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Let’s Go Brandon
Alpa Male
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by Alpa Male »

Tango Niner wrote: Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:39 am
Alpa Male / CAAC / etc.

I think you can consider this a "Victory Neutral" contract for you. With yesterday's contract announcement, you:
- WON on your prediction of disappointment with an ALPA-delivered product; but,
- LOST on your (admit it - a tad long winded!) prediction of the end of the One List.

Equilibrium is achieved.

No, my friend, you have me all wrong. We've gotten what WE ALL asked for; we've made our beds, and the cries for "UNITY" have settled. Now, as my good friend John has eluded to on many occasions, we will finally witness the true character of a pilot. The Greed. The real reason people wanted ALPA will become apparent; not the bullshit claims of "unity" or any other nonsense that has been spouted off. NO SIR. We will now witness the pure egocentric, self-centred and greedy desires that lie in EVERY SINGLE PILOT.

Let the games begin. The very junior pilots will flee the ship and run off to greener pastures: "DON'T GO, you said we had to stick together and show a unified front." HAHA, yeah right! The not so junior pilots, but not so senior pilots, will attempt to steamroll pilots in every direction, and the very senior pilots will most definitely steamroll every pilot. The company will still violate our contract, only to tell you to "pound sand" and grieve it. Grievances will pile up higher than the Calgary Tower, and the union will horse trade those grievances for any gain possible. Trust me; I've seen this circus trick before, ladies and gents. OH CRAP! I almost forgot about the B scale and debilitating scope! Hahaha...Jesus Christ, this is sure to turn into a nightmare. YOS?? Who gives a rats ass? WJ has been given a year to transfer the bottom 10% of the pilot group over to swoop; so basically anyone who stood to gain significantly from YOS. Oh my god, I'm making myself depressed right now. LOL

Buckle up, cause these rides don't end nicely, and you never get a refund. Who knows though, it looks like I'll get to fly with a lot of Encore flow; I'm sure they can correct my error in judgement and educate me on something that they've NEVER experienced before. :lol:
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flashheart
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by flashheart »

How do you pass your medical every year?
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bose
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by bose »

I'm surprised too flashheart
the Canadian Aviation Regulations Part IV, Standard 424.17 (4) specifies the physical and mental standards for medical categories. The standard related to mental issues is stated in 1.3 (a), 2.3(a), 3.3(a), 4.3(b):

“The applicant shall have no established medical history or clinical diagnosis which, according to accredited medical conclusion, would render the applicant unable to exercise safely the privileges of the permit, licence or rating applied for or held, as follows: (a) psychosis or established neurosis.”
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Ex99guy
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by Ex99guy »

mbav8r wrote: Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:17 pm Very sad to hear that the news is disappointing,
This coming from the guy who voted in a B scale at Jazz.
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cloak
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by cloak »

jjj wrote: Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:57 am ...
We lost big.

...
All of this combined will just make room for more garbage off the street into Pink Captain spots.

All said and done - Tbalx made a stupid move going to Flair.

JJJ
Why keep grinding that axe and obsess with this guy when clearly he can't do anything that would win your approval, stay, leave, doesn't matter, keep on ranting and blame your problems on others! If you are a WestJet pilot pre-Encore era, you too are "off the street", unless of course you were born with 4 bars at WestJet with all its privileges!!
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Last edited by cloak on Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:21 am, edited 3 times in total.
cloak
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by cloak »

Ex99guy wrote: Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:28 pm
mbav8r wrote: Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:17 pm Very sad to hear that the news is disappointing,
This coming from the guy who voted in a B scale at Jazz.
indeed, it is a matter of perspective. From another perspective one could argue that it is the fault of those Jazz "scabs" that undercut Skyservice which had a really nice pay structure all with the ambition of flying a jet. In the process they upset Air Canada which undercut them by bringing Sky regional. Then they voted for a "B" scale at Jazz to secure a 2.6% raise for the senior guys under ALPA's supervision no less.

Or another could argue it's the fault of those WestJet "scabs" that took the well-paying jobs of Canadian and Canada 3000 and replaced it with their 60 k for B737 captains....all a matter of perspective.

Some people have selective memory, or they are very young and were not around at those times. Now they take a snapshot of this time and what serves them, and brand whoever perceived outside that small circle, with all kinds of names.

The truth of the matter however is that individual pilots cannot influence the market. And market forces seem to be in favour of ULCCs at the moment and this is the reality that comes with it. In the end, unrealistic expectations created by ALPA/MEC set up a case where anything less than perfection would be viewed a total failure and disappointment. The same guys that were happy and singing the arbitrator's praises for booting a few direct-hire captains, are now disappointed by him!

ALPA is a business that is run by increasing its web of membership, much like a pyramid. It uses all propaganda to grow that membership base. In reality however, no union, or strike can do the job of an old-fashioned negotiations and persuasion by reason to build consensus.
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telex
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by telex »

ZIp. Work more. For less money. On ancient equipment. And frozen in position for years.

Zip pilots have nothing on the Swoop 26.
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The Tenth Man
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by The Tenth Man »

Umm, excuse me, Alpa male and I are not the same people. I am busy working. Yesterday was 10 hours at double time, so that was a $4300 day (YWG-MBJ-YYZ).

Apparently (no one has seen the WPSL) I was wrong in my prediction of the ordering of the current WPSL. (Not wrong on Swoop pay, I won that bet with KAG). I seriously did not think ALPA would risk violation of the established 62 year old seniority policy. I wonder if they realize the can of worms they have sealed up for opening at some point down the road?

With respect to the OTS pilots, they had a common law duty of fair representation in place from May 12, 2017, that existed and was applicable even during the negotiation phase of the CBA. So, has ALPA met that duty? That will obviously be a decision of a judge, should the matter proceed to court (I would be surprised if it didn't).

Unions are given wide berth by the courts/labour boards and are above scrutiny with regards to their negotiation of collective agreements, subject only to the DFR. Was ALPA being discriminatory or arbitrary in granting super-seniority to the pre-existing flowthrough pilots on the WPSL? Did they have justificable reasons to give some bargaining unit members more credit than others? Was this a "uniform principle of seniority", as the ALPA Constitution states as an objective.

Obviously, ALPA violated a 62 year old established BOD policy on seniority; a policy as I have shown (through archival material from 1956) was devised in order to avoid, as much as possible I would add, controversy in future mergers. So, by their own words and experience, ALPA has exposed the WJ bargaining unit members to additional controversy in the event a merger happens within the lifetime of the current generation of junior pilots. They must have had justifiable reasons to do so.

The breach of contract issue is evidently still live. Ignoring the instruction of the ALPA BOD to use "every means at its command" to achieve a DOH ordered seniority list seems at best a risky venture.

And what of damages/remedies should a class action suit in civil court be successful? Is a renegotiation of the list available or is it strictly economic restitution?

Anyhow, I don't know where this issue heads, but I suspect this is not the end of it. There is still the matter of the LOU. The statutory DFR is in place as of January 1, 2019, so from that point on, all pilots on the WPSL have a legal right to their seniority rankings.

All of the material I have gathered is available to whomover asks at pilotjohnjohn@gmail.com.

Happy new year everyone, don't be mad. That's a life shortener. As it stands for everyone reading here, our deaths will occur in anywhere from one minute to sixty-ish years from now.

Don't be boring.

TTFN
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The Tenth Man
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by The Tenth Man »

Hangry wrote: Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:49 am 2 unanswered posts back to back. Sure John, this isn't you. :roll: :lol:
Hi Hangry, on Friday the 21st, I got into YWG in the afternoon, had lunch at East India Gardens, went back to my room and had a massive Indian food infused bowel movement, then posted my mea culpa response here.

My next Avcanada activity was a few minutes ago, as I was working all day yesterday ($4300 WJPA dollars) and started early. One way to distinguish me and Alpa male is that I am much too partisan to post anything but only the most gentlest of criticisms of the WJPA. I respect everyone's right to a different opinion.

I have no interest in working out time zones and converting them to the times that Alpa male posted yesterday, but here is my schedule (flightaware WJA 2432) from Dec 22:

Dec_22_Sked.jpeg
Dec_22_Sked.jpeg (51.81 KiB) Viewed 3968 times
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KAG
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by KAG »

John, yup ya won that bet. I never would have thought anyone with a basic understanding of aviation would rule to allow swoops current wages to continue.
So heres my homework for you if your up to it, what is the lowest paying 737 captain jobs in north America, then extend out globally. I'll bet swoop will be near the extreme bottom.
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Re: New Arbitrated Contract

Post by dogfood »

What can you expect to make at westjet your first year there
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