Classic Dash replacement??

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KenoraPilot
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by KenoraPilot »

HansDietrich wrote: Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:39 pm
KenoraPilot wrote: Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:27 pm what are you flying these days? You bash the 8 but what are you currently enjoying now?
I'm flying corporate. It's not perfect, but I enjoy it a lot more than Jazz. The Citation I fly is much nicer, I have more time off to be with my wife and kids and I go to much nicer destinations. I'm much happier than I was at Jazz. I did enjoy the "anonymity" and job security there, but I couldn't stand flying that plane and its destinations. There is a time in a man's life, when his happiness is more important than the "status quo". I made the right decision. Of course, nothing's stopping me from going to other airlines, but for now, I like what I'm doing.

But, getting back on track with the topic at hand: "Classic Dash Replacement". I still stand by my comments and you know I'm right. This is not a plane that Air Canada needs to put forward. You can't make a good impression stepping off a 777 or 787 and getting on a -100 out of YYZ. It just doesn't look good, it doesn't fit, it's "Mikey Mouse" mate. It's 703 crap. It's Canadian North / Perimeter / Air Inuit / Air Creebec material, not AIR CANADA material. The Q400 is a perfect aircraft to replace the -100/-300.

I'm not sure if I've personally upset you, or you just don't care what your passengers think, but everything I experienced (as a pilot) aside, it's not an aircraft fit for Mainline. If you enjoy it, great, but don't try to sell it to me, or the public. It's not an attractive product anymore. It may have been back in the 90s, but not anymore.
I personally think it's a matter of opinion, yes people will dislike it. Others probably enjoy it. I remember flying the DH6 on floats and the passengers loved it regardless of the no AC/Pressurization and 25+ year airframe. Passengers also loved loved the B18, DH2/3 and those airframes are 40-60 years old! The one B18 we had in NWO was 70 years old and the people getting on it loved it! It stank, vibrated, cramped seats, one door, couldn't stand up in the cabin. The Otter was even worse smell and speed wise.

So I will agree that there is a huge difference between 777 service and DH8 service, but the reality of Canada is some destinations don't require a Q400. Encore had a really tough time in YSB because of this....hence why they pulled out and AC with the 37seat DH8-100 still operates 3/4 times daily. I personally would love to see a Q300NG, but for some people the DH8 is a valuable and beautiful airplane. (in the eye of the beholder)

So Hans i'll agree to disagree and agree that our view points are very different and I am glad you're on a nice citation. Life style is way more important than airplane I will agree with you 100%. After losing my forever career job I made the best decision and jumped in with both feet and am making the best experience I can. The experience I take from Jazz and the DH8 is 100% in my control :)

Happy New Year and keep the blue side up :)
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HansDietrich
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by HansDietrich »

KenoraPilot,

Yeah. Happy New Year!

I'll agree with you. If they come up with a brand new "-100/-300NG" type of Dash, with better, quieter engines, better avionics, more bin space, I'd have no problem. It's not the size of the plane that matters. It's the age of it. It shows. Like the other gentleman said here. It's super cold in the winter and very warm in the summer. I remember flying out of YUL a few times in the winter and I was freezing on the -300. It just needs to go or replaced with a newer machine.

On a side note, I wonder how the new ATR-42-600 fares in comparison with the old ATR-42. It's the "updated" ATR we're all used to.
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by C-GGGQ »

As a passenger on a brand new ATR 42 over the summer. Take off power was about as loud as a q400 in cruise and cruise power virtually could not be heard from inside the cabin so I'm all in favour of an ATR 42 fleet for jazz.
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fish4life
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by fish4life »

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thehin ... 7.ece/amp/

These were still blasting around the skies as recent as 2014, lots of MD-80’s as well. AC is hardly the only airline running old equipment around.
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yhz41
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by yhz41 »

C-GGGQ wrote: Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:33 pm As a passenger on a brand new ATR 42 over the summer. Take off power was about as loud as a q400 in cruise and cruise power virtually could not be heard from inside the cabin so I'm all in favour of an ATR 42 fleet for jazz.
I second this. But I also always feel a bit of nostalgia from the canadian regional days when I'm on a classic.
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by GhostRider6 »

I agree with other points you’ve made in the past Hans but i’ll Agree ( ish) to disagree with your points on the classic.

The classic is an awesome airplane and I love flying it. I will agree it’s aging ! However, have you had a peek at Q400 reliability ? ( not great)

The classic can takeoff from some nasty tight spots on decently rough gravel or not rough but shorter / tighter paved strips. I know this because I’ve done it...As a pilot, I can also say it’s also dream to hand fly!

There’s a reason it’s being modernized IMO..could a Q300 modernization be valuable? Hell yes! But this being said,I don’t know if there’s many aircraft that could do he classic’s role and fit it as efficiently and go to the places the classic goes ..

Also, look at usefulness .. CHR could use this aircraft overseas as needed or for diverse charter work.

Just because it’s not a glitzy, fast jet does not mean it’s a POS IMHO. Also.. ever check out a HS748??? That’s an old aircraft which is still being flown by some...Again, the plane has its role/ purpose.
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by C-GGGQ »

I think that kind of is his point. The classic is suited to short field dirt strip work and cargo ops for places like perimeter etc. Not for pavement to pavement from the "national flag carrier #1 airline in North America" a more comfortable quieter more efficient aircraft is what is needed.
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by KenoraPilot »

This is a large sale all at once for CMA?
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TheStig
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by TheStig »

I've always been a big fan of the Dash, but I don't think you'll ever see the 100/200/300 replaced with updated versions. The profits just aren't there to be made, if you're an airline and you find yourself with $100 million to invest in fleet replacement the smart money is buying narrow bodies. You can buy a 737 or A320 for the price of three Q400's, list price for the Q400 is over $30 million, rumor is the AC (and Delta) will pay less for their A220's than that. Regional value comes from delivering passengers from within 300 miles to major hubs, thus the regional aircraft must compete with cars and buses, which is an uphill battle when landing fees, security fees and nav fees are piled onto the ticket price. Gate availability and ground support costs also work against regional aircraft in increasingly crowed hubs. I think we will see airlines continue to up gauge current routes to larger jet aircraft to continue driving down seat mile costs. Hopefully we see these aircraft in service for a long time but as airlines continue to grow internationally and people continue to move to major urban centres the sun might be setting on the era of true regional air service.
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rudder
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by rudder »

Current AC Express fleet per aircanada.com:

46 76 seat jets
24 50 seat jets
44 78 seat props
40 37/50 seat props
*B1900 not listed

My guess as to Express fleet circa 2020:

51 76 seat jets
16 50 seat jets
49 78 seat props
35 37/50 seat props

My guess as to Express fleet circa 2025:

60 76 seat jets
55 78 seat props
20 30-50 seat props *(possible code share)

Older smaller gauge/lower ownership or lease expense aircraft are useful but not realistic in the long term in the Express operating fleet. Every aircraft eventually reaches the end of its useful life. Even AC is dealing with that reality as it renews it’s own fleet. Acquiring a new aircraft in the 50 seat prop category would be quite expensive and likely involve a manufacturer not currently in service in the Express fleet. AC may have to make decisions about how it will maintain a commercial presence in some of the very small communities it currently serves using Express. AC may end up with codeshare agreements with several local tier 2 operators that are currently competitors.

Also, there are routes currently operated by Express that will likely revert back to mainline/Rouge as the AC fleet renewal process evolves and stabilizes. However, having a jet gauge gap from 76 seats (CRJ900/E175) to 145/135 seats (A220-300/Rouge A319) may cause AC to consider the smaller A220-100 as a possible solution to allow for increased frequency on some city pairs.

It is likely the trend for Express will be increased ASM’s but decreased fleet and block hours.
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by Splash »

KenoraPilot wrote: Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:09 am This is a large sale all at once for CMA?
Likely sale to cover off the Georgian flying out of Calgary come May 1st.
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by KenoraPilot »

Very possible, but hoping the flying goes to Jazz on the DH8.
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rudder
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by rudder »

rudder wrote: Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:31 am Current AC Express fleet per aircanada.com:

46 76 seat jets
24 50 seat jets
44 78 seat props
40 37/50 seat props
*B1900 not listed

My guess as to Express fleet circa 2020:

51 76 seat jets
16 50 seat jets
49 78 seat props
35 37/50 seat props

My guess as to Express fleet circa 2025:

60 76 seat jets
55 78 seat props
20 30-50 seat props *(possible code share)

Older smaller gauge/lower ownership or lease expense aircraft are useful but not realistic in the long term in the Express operating fleet. Every aircraft eventually reaches the end of its useful life. Even AC is dealing with that reality as it renews it’s own fleet. Acquiring a new aircraft in the 50 seat prop category would be quite expensive and likely involve a manufacturer not currently in service in the Express fleet. AC may have to make decisions about how it will maintain a commercial presence in some of the very small communities it currently serves using Express. AC may end up with codeshare agreements with several local tier 2 operators that are currently competitors.

Also, there are routes currently operated by Express that will likely revert back to mainline/Rouge as the AC fleet renewal process evolves and stabilizes. However, having a jet gauge gap from 76 seats (CRJ900/E175) to 145/135 seats (A220-300/Rouge A319) may cause AC to consider the smaller A220-100 as a possible solution to allow for increased frequency on some city pairs.

It is likely the trend for Express will be increased ASM’s but decreased fleet and block hours.
I hate to quote myself but....

Using the information Chorus included in the presentation on the corporate website related to the modified CPA with AC, here is the projected Express fleet circa 2025:

60 76 seat jets (SKY included)
15 50 seat jets
36 78 seat props
19 50 seat props

The piece that seems the most divergent is the size of the Q400 fleet. My guess is that the Q400 and CRJ200 fleets will be subject to further changes in the 2021-2025 time frame subject to the competitive landscape and the price of fuel.
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by ogc »

rudder wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:01 pm
I hate to quote myself but....

Using the information Chorus included in the presentation on the corporate website related to the modified CPA with AC, here is the projected Express fleet circa 2025:

60 76 seat jets (SKY included)
15 50 seat jets
36 78 seat props
19 50 seat props

The piece that seems the most divergent is the size of the Q400 fleet. My guess is that the Q400 and CRJ200 fleets will be subject to further changes in the 2021-2025 time frame subject to the competitive landscape and the price of fuel.
Based on no 37 seat prop and reduction in 50 seat prop does that mean no more DH8 flying out of Toronto? Q400 excluded?
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by Inverted2 »

I would imagine so. The Q can do pretty much every classic route out of YYZ except for Sarnia maybe. I would think the remaining -300s would do some flying out of YVR the Q can't get into and some YUL stuff to the smaller places in Kaybec that wouldn't be viable in a 78 seat aircraft. Just my guess.
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by KenoraPilot »

I would assume the Q will stay in YYZ and possibly some DH8-311's will make they way out to YYZ & YUL to pick up some of the required small gauge flying. I believe it's just the DH8-301's that are unable to get the "life extension" due to no more "new gear" for them. The 311's can all be extended. (which is the 19x 50 seat turbo props you see). I would expect to see an influx of RJ's and Q's out west then to help pick up some of the flying, but truly a lot of the original Classic flying out of YVR has already gone over to the Q. (YYJ, YCD, YLW, YXT, SEA, PDX)
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by KenoraPilot »

Inverted2 wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:32 pm I would imagine so. The Q can do pretty much every classic route out of YYZ except for Sarnia maybe. I would think the remaining -300s would do some flying out of YVR the Q can't get into and some YUL stuff to the smaller places in Kaybec that wouldn't be viable in a 78 seat aircraft. Just my guess.
Kingston as well
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by HansDietrich »

KenoraPilot wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:34 pm
Inverted2 wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:32 pm I would imagine so. The Q can do pretty much every classic route out of YYZ except for Sarnia maybe. I would think the remaining -300s would do some flying out of YVR the Q can't get into and some YUL stuff to the smaller places in Kaybec that wouldn't be viable in a 78 seat aircraft. Just my guess.
Kingston as well
Last Christmas I worked there (2017) they had the Q go into Kingston. I wonder if it was just a replacement for the -100, or they were trying new routes out or just busy holiday flying...
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by RNAV30 »

KenoraPilot wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:34 pm
Inverted2 wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:32 pm I would imagine so. The Q can do pretty much every classic route out of YYZ except for Sarnia maybe. I would think the remaining -300s would do some flying out of YVR the Q can't get into and some YUL stuff to the smaller places in Kaybec that wouldn't be viable in a 78 seat aircraft. Just my guess.
Kingston as well
The Q is already operating into YGK
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Re: Classic Dash replacement??

Post by KenoraPilot »

RNAV30 wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:41 pm
KenoraPilot wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:34 pm
Inverted2 wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:32 pm I would imagine so. The Q can do pretty much every classic route out of YYZ except for Sarnia maybe. I would think the remaining -300s would do some flying out of YVR the Q can't get into and some YUL stuff to the smaller places in Kaybec that wouldn't be viable in a 78 seat aircraft. Just my guess.
Kingston as well
The Q is already operating into YGK

That’s good news!
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