Grooming Update

[bose]

GROOMING UPDATE:
JANUARY 11, 2019
The Pilots’ contract which came into effect just before the holidays has caused some impact on the line directly impacting Flight Attendants. Following the advice of their own union, Pilots are completing their safety duties before “volunteering” to assist with grooming. WestJet has asked Flight Attendants to “write up” Pilots who do not “volunteer” for this work. The Pilots’ contract does not include language directing them to clean the aircraft on a complimentary basis.

Flight Attendants have made it very clear to the Local 4070 Executive that they will not accept being accountable for unpaid cleaning of the company fleet on an ongoing basis.

There have been little to no documented rules, contract/agreements or even informal documents by the company which identify who is responsible for, and when voluntary cleaning of the aircraft is to take place.

We will start bargaining for our own contract in March. If Pilots are pressured into doing unpaid grooming, it will make it much more difficult for us to take our position forward (that the work is outside our scope and should be compensated regardless).

By completing their safety duties first, our Pilots are helping us set the stage for our own battle on the issue.

We urge our Membership to rally together, Pilots and Cabin Crew, to ensure that the temporary setbacks we feel now, lead to success down the line.

In short, we are asking the following of you:

Continue to groom as normal, until we can get the issue to the bargaining table. We cannot legally engage in job action at this time.
Please do not “write up” Pilots. That adds pressure on the Pilots to give in, which will hurt our cause down the line.
Try to work with Pilots and be united. Our interests are joined on this issue.
Let CUPE stewards know if there are conflicts with Pilots that need to be resolved. We will discuss matters with ALPA and try to resolve them amicably.
Please make every effort to unite with our ALPA members, and do not help foster division even when they can’t help us clean up in the back. It is in our own best interests in the long run.

https://westjet.cupe.ca/2019/01/11/grooming-update/

[Schooner69A]

"...By completing their safety duties first..."

You going to stick with that...?

Safety duties can't include helping the cabin staff and fostering good relations between the front end and back end?

Too many front enders are of the opinion that they shouldn't be seen mingling in the back... Image, you know.


Safety duties. Good one.

You really shouldn't try and BS a BSer...

It's like BOAC in the fifties...~

[C-GGGQ]

Again schooner, it has nothing to do with "not mingling with the back" it has to do with the fact that WestJet now wants FA'S to "write up" pilots for not "volunteering" to do something "not in their job duties". A company that has guaranteed they will never see my resume when the time comes.

[Lightchop]

"...By completing their safety duties first..."

You going to stick with that...?

Safety duties can't include helping the cabin staff and fostering good relations between the front end and back end?

Too many front enders are of the opinion that they shouldn't be seen mingling in the back... Image, you know.


Safety duties. Good one.

You really shouldn't try and BS a BSer...

It's like BOAC in the fifties...~

Did you even read the whole letter? FFS.

[HansDietrich]

Again schooner, it has nothing to do with "not mingling with the back" it has to do with the fact that WestJet now wants FA'S to "write up" pilots for not "volunteering" to do something "not in their job duties". A company that has guaranteed they will never see my resume when the time comes.

Agreed 100%. Westjet is just a **** hair above Ryanair. They're scum.

***Disclaimer for those easily offended:***
I'm speaking about the management and the expectations they have of their employees, not the pilots, FAs or any other honest, hard working Canadian, employed there.

An airline the size of WJ should have dedicated grooming staff for a number of reasons:
1. Better On Time Performance
2. Creates jobs for Canadians. There are lots of people able, willing and thankful to do that job.
3. It allows cabin and flight crews to focus on more relevant duties
4. It reduces stress / fatigue. After my duties on the ground, I rather just sit with my eyes closed for 5 minutes. It relaxes me, so I can better perform for my next leg.

As far as "writing up" pilots. If any flight attendant does that, well that speaks volumes about their character.

[C-GGGQ]

Yeah the pilots and FA's can go mingle with a coffee or just rest their eyes/ feet for the FA's while 2-3 ground hands clean the plane like a normal transcontinental airline. This isn't a beaver or Navajo which I happily tidy up as a pilot. It's a (soon to be) Dreamliner. Don't sell the pilots the "it's to save our snappy start up company some money" line.

[Schooner69A]

Lightchop:

Yes, I read the whole letter.

And it doesn't change the facts:

Part of one group thinks they're '50s era BOAC pilots
Part of another group wants to use the actions of the first group to further their interests.

Gormless.


PS Grooming may indeed go during collective negotiations, but with all such endeavours, there is give and take. You may not be happy with what is given up to acquire this concession...

[Hangry]

Junior WJ pilots have already been forced though arbitration to give up any predictable progression of pay and status. A complete destruction of a career. Doesn’t really matter how it happened. It is the new reality.

To give up more would just be a detail. All has been already taken.

Big deal.

[aerobod]

Yeah the pilots and FA's can go mingle with a coffee or just rest their eyes/ feet for the FA's while 2-3 ground hands clean the plane like a normal transcontinental airline. This isn't a beaver or Navajo which I happily tidy up as a pilot. It's a (soon to be) Dreamliner. Don't sell the pilots the "it's to save our snappy start up company some money" line.

Grooming by the crew or employees on travel privileges or business has never been done on the 767s, nor terminating flights or the longest 737 flights, the 787s won't be, either.

[Lightchop]

Yeah the pilots and FA's can go mingle with a coffee or just rest their eyes/ feet for the FA's while 2-3 ground hands clean the plane like a normal transcontinental airline. This isn't a beaver or Navajo which I happily tidy up as a pilot. It's a (soon to be) Dreamliner. Don't sell the pilots the "it's to save our snappy start up company some money" line.

Grooming by the crew or employees on travel privileges or business has never been done on the 767s, nor terminating flights or the longest 737 flights, the 787s won't be, either.

I know we're not talking encore here but do you think that encore pilots working 5 legs a day with min turns should be grooming? Big planes long legs, no grooming. Small planes short legs, should also be no grooming.

[JBI]

PS Grooming may indeed go during collective negotiations, but with all such endeavours, there is give and take. You may not be happy with what is given up to acquire this concession...

That's the point. My understanding is that it was discussed in negotiations, the company said they wouldn't pay pilots to do grooming (whether in actual pay or some compensation/recognition) and as there is nothing in the contract or company manuals that says pilots have to groom that it is instead voluntary, many pilot are choosing to no longer groom.

If, in collective negotiations the company said they would put a value on grooming and pass some of that value on to the pilots (again, whether be it pay, credit or a Timmy's gift card (joking)) then perhaps that is something that could be discussed. Don't get me wrong, I didn't mind grooming and personally, could take it or leave it. But as the new contract comes into force this month, there will be a new period of what rights (and responsibilities) both the pilots and the company have that will be guided by the new CBA. From what I understand, nothing in it says that the pilots are required to groom.

Now, when travelling standby as written in the standby travel policy, all WestJet employees including pilots are still required to help groom except in certain circumstances as outlined by aerobod.

[digits_]

Now, when travelling standby as written in the standby travel policy, all WestJet employees including pilots are still required to help groom except in certain circumstances as outlined by aerobod.

I pitty that poor westjet employee travelling standby, on an airplane where FAs and pilots don't want to groom anymore...

[goingnowherefast]

Make sure that plane is super clean, absolutely spotless. Clean so thoroughly that you always release the brake 10 minutes late.

What's the new pay now for duty time, 1/2 credit pay? Better get those expensive pilots back in the air ASAP. Hire some groomers to save a few minutes in the turn. Who cares about aircraft utilisation, leave the planes sitting on the ground with long turns because the crews have to groom is okay.

[Old fella]

Been awhile for me on WJ but is there still some of the third rate comedy acting by FAs, do they still do the “ wave request” to the FA in the back of the ac as the pax are humping their way down to the seats. Do the departure people get into the comedy routine like it was in the past.

[squawk]

GROOMING UPDATE:
JANUARY 11, 2019
The Pilots’ contract which came into effect just before the holidays has caused some impact on the line directly impacting Flight Attendants. Following the advice of their own union, Pilots are completing their safety duties before “volunteering” to assist with grooming. WestJet has asked Flight Attendants to “write up” Pilots who do not “volunteer” for this work. The Pilots’ contract does not include language directing them to clean the aircraft on a complimentary basis.

Flight Attendants have made it very clear to the Local 4070 Executive that they will not accept being accountable for unpaid cleaning of the company fleet on an ongoing basis.

There have been little to no documented rules, contract/agreements or even informal documents by the company which identify who is responsible for, and when voluntary cleaning of the aircraft is to take place.

We will start bargaining for our own contract in March. If Pilots are pressured into doing unpaid grooming, it will make it much more difficult for us to take our position forward (that the work is outside our scope and should be compensated regardless).

By completing their safety duties first, our Pilots are helping us set the stage for our own battle on the issue.

We urge our Membership to rally together, Pilots and Cabin Crew, to ensure that the temporary setbacks we feel now, lead to success down the line.

In short, we are asking the following of you:

Continue to groom as normal, until we can get the issue to the bargaining table. We cannot legally engage in job action at this time.
Please do not “write up” Pilots. That adds pressure on the Pilots to give in, which will hurt our cause down the line.
Try to work with Pilots and be united. Our interests are joined on this issue.
Let CUPE stewards know if there are conflicts with Pilots that need to be resolved. We will discuss matters with ALPA and try to resolve them amicably.
Please make every effort to unite with our ALPA members, and do not help foster division even when they can’t help us clean up in the back. It is in our own best interests in the long run.

https://westjet.cupe.ca/2019/01/11/grooming-update/

You have posted internal communications. In violation of many policies. If I were you I’d delete them.

[GAF]

I believe that comm came out on their Facebook page. It had nothing to do with a WS communication

[iflyroads]

GROOMING UPDATE:
JANUARY 11, 2019
The Pilots’ contract which came into effect just before the holidays has caused some impact on the line directly impacting Flight Attendants. Following the advice of their own union, Pilots are completing their safety duties before “volunteering” to assist with grooming. WestJet has asked Flight Attendants to “write up” Pilots who do not “volunteer” for this work. The Pilots’ contract does not include language directing them to clean the aircraft on a complimentary basis.

Flight Attendants have made it very clear to the Local 4070 Executive that they will not accept being accountable for unpaid cleaning of the company fleet on an ongoing basis.

There have been little to no documented rules, contract/agreements or even informal documents by the company which identify who is responsible for, and when voluntary cleaning of the aircraft is to take place.

We will start bargaining for our own contract in March. If Pilots are pressured into doing unpaid grooming, it will make it much more difficult for us to take our position forward (that the work is outside our scope and should be compensated regardless).

By completing their safety duties first, our Pilots are helping us set the stage for our own battle on the issue.

We urge our Membership to rally together, Pilots and Cabin Crew, to ensure that the temporary setbacks we feel now, lead to success down the line.

In short, we are asking the following of you:

Continue to groom as normal, until we can get the issue to the bargaining table. We cannot legally engage in job action at this time.
Please do not “write up” Pilots. That adds pressure on the Pilots to give in, which will hurt our cause down the line.
Try to work with Pilots and be united. Our interests are joined on this issue.
Let CUPE stewards know if there are conflicts with Pilots that need to be resolved. We will discuss matters with ALPA and try to resolve them amicably.
Please make every effort to unite with our ALPA members, and do not help foster division even when they can’t help us clean up in the back. It is in our own best interests in the long run.

https://westjet.cupe.ca/2019/01/11/grooming-update/

You have posted internal communications. In violation of many policies. If I were you I’d delete them.

It's on the cupe WJFA website. Publically accessable.

[Lightchop]

GROOMING UPDATE:
JANUARY 11, 2019
The Pilots’ contract which came into effect just before the holidays has caused some impact on the line directly impacting Flight Attendants. Following the advice of their own union, Pilots are completing their safety duties before “volunteering” to assist with grooming. WestJet has asked Flight Attendants to “write up” Pilots who do not “volunteer” for this work. The Pilots’ contract does not include language directing them to clean the aircraft on a complimentary basis.

Flight Attendants have made it very clear to the Local 4070 Executive that they will not accept being accountable for unpaid cleaning of the company fleet on an ongoing basis.

There have been little to no documented rules, contract/agreements or even informal documents by the company which identify who is responsible for, and when voluntary cleaning of the aircraft is to take place.

We will start bargaining for our own contract in March. If Pilots are pressured into doing unpaid grooming, it will make it much more difficult for us to take our position forward (that the work is outside our scope and should be compensated regardless).

By completing their safety duties first, our Pilots are helping us set the stage for our own battle on the issue.

We urge our Membership to rally together, Pilots and Cabin Crew, to ensure that the temporary setbacks we feel now, lead to success down the line.

In short, we are asking the following of you:

Continue to groom as normal, until we can get the issue to the bargaining table. We cannot legally engage in job action at this time.
Please do not “write up” Pilots. That adds pressure on the Pilots to give in, which will hurt our cause down the line.
Try to work with Pilots and be united. Our interests are joined on this issue.
Let CUPE stewards know if there are conflicts with Pilots that need to be resolved. We will discuss matters with ALPA and try to resolve them amicably.
Please make every effort to unite with our ALPA members, and do not help foster division even when they can’t help us clean up in the back. It is in our own best interests in the long run.

https://westjet.cupe.ca/2019/01/11/grooming-update/

You have posted internal communications. In violation of many policies. If I were you I’d delete them.

Pretty sure I just clicked that link and it directed me to a page with no log in requirement. That's what you consider "public domain."

[squawk]

Was the public info from these guys?
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x70a31o

[Tips Up]

Was the public info from these guys?
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x70a31o

No. But if one googles westjet and grooming update several sites carry the information which would be considered public domain. Nothing violating any policy of copy and pasting that information here.

[Dyna]

Yeah the pilots and FA's can go mingle with a coffee or just rest their eyes/ feet for the FA's while 2-3 ground hands clean the plane like a normal transcontinental airline. This isn't a beaver or Navajo which I happily tidy up as a pilot. It's a (soon to be) Dreamliner. Don't sell the pilots the "it's to save our snappy start up company some money" line.

Grooming by the crew or employees on travel privileges or business has never been done on the 767s, nor terminating flights or the longest 737 flights, the 787s won't be, either.

Not entirely true. Longest 737 flights? Nope. I’ve flown Cancun-Vancouver, 6.5+ and got the “employee groom accompanied by lav/vac groom ACARS message. Same after a red eye, which is suppose to be full groom as well.

But times, they are a changin’.

[aerobod]

Yeah the pilots and FA's can go mingle with a coffee or just rest their eyes/ feet for the FA's while 2-3 ground hands clean the plane like a normal transcontinental airline. This isn't a beaver or Navajo which I happily tidy up as a pilot. It's a (soon to be) Dreamliner. Don't sell the pilots the "it's to save our snappy start up company some money" line.

Grooming by the crew or employees on travel privileges or business has never been done on the 767s, nor terminating flights or the longest 737 flights, the 787s won't be, either.

Not entirely true. Longest 737 flights? Nope. I’ve flown Cancun-Vancouver, 6.5+ and got the “employee groom accompanied by lav/vac groom ACARS message. Same after a red eye, which is suppose to be full groom as well.

But times, they are a changin’.

There are always exceptions due to specific circumstances, late flight arrival, grooming crew not in place when they should be, etc. Transatlantic east-bound 737 flights are not employee groomed and there are others too, but I’m not sure which flights are on the definitive list, other than it applies to many long 737 flights.

[Blue42]

Grooming by the crew or employees on travel privileges or business has never been done on the 767s, nor terminating flights or the longest 737 flights, the 787s won't be, either.

Not entirely true. Longest 737 flights? Nope. I’ve flown Cancun-Vancouver, 6.5+ and got the “employee groom accompanied by lav/vac groom ACARS message. Same after a red eye, which is suppose to be full groom as well.

But times, they are a changin’.

There are always exceptions due to specific circumstances, late flight arrival, grooming crew not in place when they should be, etc. Transatlantic east-bound 737 flights are not employee groomed and there are others too, but I’m not sure which flights are on the definitive list, other than it applies to many long 737 flights.

It’s usually the redeye flying from Hawaii and over the Europe that is not employee groom.

[yvrpilot82]

The CUPE memo was pretty clear. Asking the pilots to not help groom for free, as when it comes to their own negotiations they'll expect the same from them. It's just a shame they get thrown under the bus for the foreseeable.
Unfortunately it'll be the PAX that suffer, through either dirty cabins or delays. There's still no communication from management on this. I think they were hoping the pilots would continue grooming out of guilt for the FAs.
With all the hundreds of destroyed career plans I'd imagine morale is far too low to be cleaning up garbage voluntarily anymore.

[Lightchop]

The CUPE memo was pretty clear. Asking the pilots to not help groom for free, as when it comes to their own negotiations they'll expect the same from them. It's just a shame they get thrown under the bus for the foreseeable.
Unfortunately it'll be the PAX that suffer, through either dirty cabins or delays. There's still no communication from management on this. I think they were hoping the pilots would continue grooming out of guilt for the FAs.
With all the hundreds of destroyed career plans I'd imagine morale is far too low to be cleaning up garbage voluntarily anymore.

They can always come work at Jazz. Nice 17 year career path laid out for them.

Plus we have groomers.

And a cool hat.