17 year TA?

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rudder
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Re: 17 year TA

Post by rudder »

truedude wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:58 am
rudder wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:56 am
truedude wrote: Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:51 am In the end, I would just like them to give us the information without needing to wait for a roadshow. I am so tired of that format. The Westjet pilots had information and a copy of their contract before the roadshow. We aren't children (though we act like it sometimes). Just give us the information, let us start reviewing it, commenting on it, and then it allows everyone to see what the questions are, misunderstandings, etc. They can then better tailor the road show to deal with the "issues."
ACPA puts out an Executive Summary prior to the roadshow and the actual collective language modifications.

Sounds like a reasonable methodology for ALPA.
Exactly! It seems like we are the only ones where our MEC hoards the information until the roadshow... Like we are too stupid to understand it without them explaining it to us.
Not sure I wrote it correctly but what I meant was Executive Summary prior to roadshow then collective agreement language modifications to follow either at the roadshow or at least during the ratification voting period.

Pilots should be voting on the actual language, not an agreement in principle.
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TheSocialChameleon
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by TheSocialChameleon »

I could barely accept back then signing up for a 3 year cell phone plan. Bell and Rogers will try and convince you to sign up for the long term to "lock in your great deal".
But we know every year there is a chance to negotiate a better term.

Drawing a parallel argument now. If we sign up for 17years with no chance of strike or negotiations and to convince us it's their best deal...haha man they are squeezing our nutz.

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RussD
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by RussD »

TheSocialChameleon wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:31 pm I could barely accept back then signing up for a 3 year cell phone plan. Bell and Rogers will try and convince you to sign up for the long term to "lock in your great deal".
But we know every year there is a chance to negotiate a better term.

Drawing a parallel argument now. If we sign up for 17years with no chance of strike or negotiations and to convince us it's their best deal...haha man they are squeezing our nutz.

TSCuplift oportunities would hapen before
No chance of negotiations? Really? In 2015 we signed a deal for 11 years, with cost neutral openers to 2026. This is far from a cost neutral package is it really 2026 already? Sorry for the sarcasm but lets be real folks. The MEC of the day said said it was their believe that the fleet guarantee and cost uplift opportunities would occur long before 2026. It's 2019. this agreement is a game changer that has the potential to alter the arc of the express brand in a positive direction. It's the next move, not the last. Long game people.
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TheSocialChameleon
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by TheSocialChameleon »

Credit only after a 3.5 hr wait. They ran through the books and figured it only affected a small number of people. We should ask for credit after a 2 hour airport reserve.
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mbav8r
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by mbav8r »

TheSocialChameleon wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:33 am Credit only after a 3.5 hr wait. They ran through the books and figured it only affected a small number of people. We should ask for credit after a 2 hour airport reserve.
So, you think the negotiating committee just accepted their first offer?
Currently, no credit for airport reserve, how many pairings have 4+ hour sits?
We also had no credit for DH, so if the result is less DHs, that’s great, same above, less 4 hour sits, great.
Most of the improvements won’t likely do anything for me, it will be great for most of the juniors and hopefully bring us all closer to the same, that and the prospect of not having to start over at GGN 2.0 will have a yes vote from me.
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Lightchop
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by Lightchop »

TheSocialChameleon wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:33 am Credit only after a 3.5 hr wait. They ran through the books and figured it only affected a small number of people. We should ask for credit after a 2 hour airport reserve.
I think you have completely unrealistic expectations of what to expect in a cost neutral period.
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truedude
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by truedude »

Lightchop wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:59 am
TheSocialChameleon wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:33 am Credit only after a 3.5 hr wait. They ran through the books and figured it only affected a small number of people. We should ask for credit after a 2 hour airport reserve.
I think you have completely unrealistic expectations of what to expect in a cost neutral period.
There is nothing cost neutral when the company comes to you and says let us open your contract that still has another 7 years left in it. That is not cost neutral. When that happens, everything is on the table. EVERYTHING!!!!
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mbav8r
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by mbav8r »

truedude wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:35 am
Lightchop wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:59 am
TheSocialChameleon wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:33 am Credit only after a 3.5 hr wait. They ran through the books and figured it only affected a small number of people. We should ask for credit after a 2 hour airport reserve.
I think you have completely unrealistic expectations of what to expect in a cost neutral period.
There is nothing cost neutral when the company comes to you and says let us open your contract that still has another 7 years left in it. That is not cost neutral. When that happens, everything is on the table. EVERYTHING!!!!
I don’t think you truly realize who you’re dealing with, Jazz, the company does not hold the cards, if we say no maybe GGN goes away anyway. Perhaps a carrot will be dangled in front of the Sky pilots, who’s response is an unknown at this point, they could very well be convinced that 2025 they will grow to 80-100 75 seat aircraft if they play ball, call this Calin’s plan B.
We are not in a shortage, every two years 500 FOs between Jazz, GGN and SR, will have the time requirement to upgrade, nothing preventing that from happening.
I will not gamble away my career, too much too lose and odds not in my favour, consider that as you think about your vote!
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truedude
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by truedude »

mbav8r wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:01 am
truedude wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:35 am
Lightchop wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:59 am

I think you have completely unrealistic expectations of what to expect in a cost neutral period.
There is nothing cost neutral when the company comes to you and says let us open your contract that still has another 7 years left in it. That is not cost neutral. When that happens, everything is on the table. EVERYTHING!!!!
I don’t think you truly realize who you’re dealing with, Jazz, the company does not hold the cards, if we say no maybe GGN goes away anyway. Perhaps a carrot will be dangled in front of the Sky pilots, who’s response is an unknown at this point, they could very well be convinced that 2025 they will grow to 80-100 75 seat aircraft if they play ball, call this Calin’s plan B.
We are not in a shortage, every two years 500 FOs between Jazz, GGN and SR, will have the time requirement to upgrade, nothing preventing that from happening.
I will not gamble away my career, too much too lose and odds not in my favour, consider that as you think about your vote!
I think you truly overestimate the number of licenses being issued in this country, and the number of pilots that then remain in this country. Not to mention that Jazz is pretty much the only airline in Canada that is staffed and compliant with the new duty regs. Which means even if they do go to Sky Regional, which is about to have a vote, they then have a lot of cards to play, plus they need to staff up quick to meet the new regs. In the long run, there will be no cost advantage left for them there. And if Air Canada decides they don't want to take any more Jazz pilots because we pissed them off, find, no one will come to work here and we will be unable to staff the flying we are contracted too. Not to mention the new legislation that prevents companies from simply undercutting each other to make everyone race to the bottom. There are other airlines in Canada aside from Air Canada. Lots of people at Sun Wing, Westjet, Transat, will never go to Air Canada.

I am prepared to venture into the unknown. If you want to stay close to shore where it is safe, I respect that. But for me, this is a solid no unless a lot more zeros get attached to it.
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Lightchop
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by Lightchop »

truedude wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:35 am
Lightchop wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:59 am
TheSocialChameleon wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:33 am Credit only after a 3.5 hr wait. They ran through the books and figured it only affected a small number of people. We should ask for credit after a 2 hour airport reserve.
I think you have completely unrealistic expectations of what to expect in a cost neutral period.
There is nothing cost neutral when the company comes to you and says let us open your contract that still has another 7 years left in it. That is not cost neutral. When that happens, everything is on the table. EVERYTHING!!!!
Yeah .. you made my point. We have 7 years left of no ability to negotiate any increase in compensation.
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truedude
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by truedude »

Lightchop wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:38 am
truedude wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 9:35 am
Lightchop wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:59 am

I think you have completely unrealistic expectations of what to expect in a cost neutral period.
There is nothing cost neutral when the company comes to you and says let us open your contract that still has another 7 years left in it. That is not cost neutral. When that happens, everything is on the table. EVERYTHING!!!!
Yeah .. you made my point. We have 7 years left of no ability to negotiate any increase in compensation.
How are you under the believe that we have no ability to negotiate any increase in compensation? If you truly believe that you are beyond ignorant as to how labour relations work in this country and the reality of this current situation.
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TheSocialChameleon
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by TheSocialChameleon »

What a few of you (Lightchop included) have failed to realize.

Is that a CPA and union negotiations are completely different.

A union bargains for working conditions at the present company. Not on behalf of another company.
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by Malfunction »

Well, it's better than current but it's really not alot. I would think with all the extra years on the contract and are ability to not STRIKE if the pilot shortage gets worse to increase wages you would think they would give us better incentives. Oh well I guess I'll be the disappointed child on Christmas morning who got soxs for Christmas who thought he was getting a bike. :goodman:
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ragequit
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by ragequit »

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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by Inverted2 »

Not a raise at all. 2%/yr won’t cut it.
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by daedalusx »

This is going to be a very very tight vote. Wouldn’t be surprised if it didn’t pass.
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Rowdy
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by Rowdy »

This will not pass. People are already sharpening their pitchforks.

I had pretty low expectations, but this is a serious slap in the dick
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Fanblade
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by Fanblade »

Is it going for a vote? Or has the MEC just accepted it?
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Transition9er2
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by Transition9er2 »

Are we still waiting to get the details sent out on this or do we have to wait until all roadshows are complete before we have access to the specifics?
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ted_stryker
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Re: 17 year TA?

Post by ted_stryker »

It's on the alpa website. MOS19
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