Canadian Pilot Unity

[Outlaw58]

I am a Jazz 1 YOS FO and I will support DOH if it is on the table.

Please post what plane you're on.

YUL DH8

58

PS: If one advocates bleeding for the group, one must. be ready to bleed too. What I didn't mention above is that I am also hoping for a lift of the. equipment freeze for the Jan equip bid so that some of us could find a seat on another type before the GGN guys come over. Yeah I'm a dreamer but hey...that' me

[DH8Pilot]

YUL DH8

58

PS: If one advocates bleeding for the group, one must. be ready to bleed too. What I didn't mention above is that I am also hoping for a lift of the. equipment freeze for the Jan equip bid so that some of us could find a seat on another type before the GGN guys come over. Yeah I'm a dreamer but hey...that' me

So you're top 1/2 the list at best? What if I told you that after the news on Monday, almost everyone above you on the list has bid onto the RJ? What if you're stuck where you are for the next 2 years, as those above you move over, while no new hires are put onto the DH8 below?

Realize that when I'm making the posts I do, I'm doing so to try look out for the people in your exact position. If this deal goes through unmitigated, you might very well be stuck watching your buddies on other types get a much better life out of Jazz than you. This isn't about GGN, this is about what those stuck at the bottom can make out of it. That being said, without significant changes, GGN DOH will dramatically affect you.

[Outlaw58]

YUL DH8

58

PS: If one advocates bleeding for the group, one must. be ready to bleed too. What I didn't mention above is that I am also hoping for a lift of the. equipment freeze for the Jan equip bid so that some of us could find a seat on another type before the GGN guys come over. Yeah I'm a dreamer but hey...that' me

So you're top 1/2 the list at best? What if I told you that after the news on Monday, almost everyone above you on the list has bid onto the RJ? What if you're stuck where you are for the next 2 years, as those above you move over, while no new hires are put onto the DH8 below?

Realize that when I'm making the posts I do, I'm doing so to try look out for the people in your exact position. If this deal goes through unmitigated, you might very well be stuck watching your buddies on other types get a much better life out of Jazz than you. This isn't about GGN, this is about what those stuck at the bottom can make out of it. That being said, without significant changes, GGN DOH will dramatically affect you.

I get it and I know it will greatly affect me. It would suck to sit where I am when I thought at the time I got hire that by now I should be enjoying either a Captain's pay or at least a great FO schedule, It would suck to see GGN guys hired after me slide right into a CRJ spot I'd like to have a shot at. But what would suck even more, would be to go:"screw you GGN, BOTL, sucks to be you" and not put my money where my mouth is, when I have been so vocal (not necessarily on this forum) in the past about recognizing time in the industry and experience instead of that going straight to the BTL every time you make a career move (forced or otherwise).

and I'm bottom 1/4 btw.

58

[pilotdude86]

When the Jazz bscalers FOs can feed their families, maybe then we can think about GGN.

How about when the Jazz/GGN/Sky FO's can feed their families? We can think of a collective solution? You're still looking at this through the binoculars of "what's best for me at jazz"

How about when the Air Canada 4 Year Flat Pay Pilots/Jazz/GGN/Sky FO's can feed their families? We can think of a collective solution? You're still looking at this through the binoculars of "what's best for me at jazz"


PD

[complexintentions]

You're 100% correct. Just like the Canadian elections. Hence we are stuck with Mr. Dressup.

Off-topic (sorta): I'm just happy they've opened up voting for expats again so we can all vote for Anyone But Justin.

[DH8Pilot]

I get it and I know it will greatly affect me. It would suck to sit where I am when I thought at the time I got hire that by now I should be enjoying either a Captain's pay or at least a great FO schedule, It would suck to see GGN guys hired after me slide right into a CRJ spot I'd like to have a shot at. But what would suck even more, would be to go:"screw you GGN, BOTL, sucks to be you" and not put my money where my mouth is, when I have been so vocal (not necessarily on this forum) in the past about recognizing time in the industry and experience instead of that going straight to the BTL every time you make a career move (forced or otherwise).

and I'm bottom 1/4 btw.

58

I'm glad you're willing to make that sacrifice; however, what I'm arguing is for more free flowing ability of pilots at Jazz to switch types, especially on those being reduced. Why should you be significantly more affected by DOH and reductions than your ground school colleagues on the Q or RJ?

Anyway, it appears the negotiating committee has done a great job addressing this in the CA overview.

[TheSocialChameleon]

What will happen to those are scheduled for CA upgrades at Jazz. Will they get CA protection pay in the event they get bumped.

[TheSocialChameleon]

You should never take the FIRST deal given to you. Basic negotiations. Go back and ask for more and get more. Our union guys are afraid to stand up to AC.

Jazz paid ALPA dues this whole time. The MEC at Jazz cannot represent GGN best interest. This is not a merger. We are only offering them employment.
BOTL or no deal! It’s legal.

[digits_]

Hi guys and gals, with some of the comments made on the "GGN gonna bye bye" thread I can't help but to start a poll and a discussion on where we actually are at with regards to being unified as a pilot group?

The entire industry is watching what you guys ratify at Jazz. I completely appreciate the history, and part of an important history lesson is to not repeat its mistakes. When I see comments like "I can't wait for them to go BOTL, or BOTL is what GGN deserves, etc" I lose hope in our pilot group.

On the flipside, you youngins, you outdo the old by a large margin. Learn from the history of guys throwing each other under the buss. Don't just ratify a contract for more airplanes... don't be selfish. Ratify it if it benefits the greater good of the entire pilot group. Let the corporates compete against each other. We are all pilots and shouldn't be competing against each other. Realize that a good career is dependent on your involvement in making this industry better for yourself and your peers. You and your peers all want the same thing. Career stability, pay, schedule, predictable progression.

I think this is a noble post and a very welcome positive attitude to approach take-over and mergers in the future. From what I can read in other topics, historically there has been a lot of backstabbing. In the last 5 years, there has been no major organised backstabbing for new/younger pilots in take-over/merger situations. There has been swoop, and the creation of some A and B payscales, but if you want to overslimplify things, that was more of an old vs young debate, not soo much young vs young.

This could be a great opportunity for the younger/newer generation to give a signal to start a catch-you-when-you-fall attitude between the different companies. ALPA seems to want to represent all pilots in Canada. So here is the perfect opportunity to show that they truly want to do that. I'm not a big fan of ALPA in general, but in cases like these, there would definitely be upsides to such an organisation.

If the eternal quarrels between pilot groups will ever be a thing of the past, this could be the first step. I also fear that if it does not happen in this case, it will unfortunately always exist and the one unified pilot group will truly be death.

Signed, a non GGN, non Jazz pilot

[Mach7]

@deauleax

Your quote;

It’s about what’s right for all those guys who’s been sacrificing for the last 2 years.

Are you serious about his comment!!

There are pilots here that sacrificed a lot more so your 2 year seniority wonders could move into a comfortable position at Jazz directly from the classroom without having to work your way up the ladder through numerous companies, pay scales and shitty working conditions.

Or those like myself that went on strike in '97 to enhance contract language, whilst just about losing my house at the same time due to ZERO income for 60 days.

I have been in this industry since 1977, so don't feed me this sacrificing crap.

This is the problem with this industry, we all call ourselves professional Pilots but at the same time willing to move forward by screwing the guy beside us. GGN Pilots deserve DOH regardless of a handful of individuals losing out because they either quit GGN to come here, (there choice), or our reps had the fore thought to include this Pilot group because they are our ALPA brothers and sisters.

Did you know the big hold up at AC right now with respect to getting the ALPA card signed is that they want to change the constitution to eliminate the language regarding DOH in the event of a merger?

Some might think this is protecting there Pilot group, but in my mind this is setting the industry back decades.

My 2 cents worth,,

[TheSocialChameleon]

GGN guys got pfo'd at Jazz. We worked hard at our interviews and got in. BOTL is a fair deal. If you're not happy to have a job after you've lost yours then go to swg or air Tran.

[JohnnyHotRocks]

GGN guys got pfo'd at Jazz. We worked hard at our interviews and got in. BOTL is a fair deal. If you're not happy to have a job after you've lost yours then go to swg or air Tran.

TSC worked hard at his interview. Wore out TWO sets of kneepads!

[TheSocialChameleon]

What the hell is a blended payscale anyways. Is it an average of scale A and scale B. In which case you won't be making as much as you did pre-2015 scale but not as low as B scale?

No deal...

How about not making our labour cheaper again. Not watering down the A scale too.

It should not be a blended payscale. It should be a 'finally feed your family because a pilot is not an entry level job' scale.

[Outlaw58]

GGN guys got pfo'd at Jazz. We worked hard at our interviews and got in. BOTL is a fair deal. If you're not happy to have a job after you've lost yours then go to swg or air Tran.

TSC worked hard at his interview. Wore out TWO sets of kneepads!

Friend of mine always make a point to mention that he has no gag reflex on every interview. We competed for a job once.....he won.

58

[TheSocialChameleon]

GGN guys got pfo'd at Jazz. We worked hard at our interviews and got in. BOTL is a fair deal. If you're not happy to have a job after you've lost yours then go to swg or air Tran.

TSC worked hard at his interview. Wore out TWO sets of kneepads!

Perhaps just like your mom did to put you through flight school. You should've worked hard, look what you made your mommy do.

[TheSocialChameleon]

BOTL or no deal. You want a job we will gladly hire you. Don't like it then you have other options to go to with your jet time.

[FL320]

GGN guys got pfo'd at Jazz. We worked hard at our interviews and got in. BOTL is a fair deal. If you're not happy to have a job after you've lost yours then go to swg or air Tran.

On a side note; going to Swg or TS would be a better move than Jazz. I did all them and I don’t miss Jazz at all ...paycheck and lifestyle are WAY BETTER at SWG and TS....but I agree Jazz is a nice flight school for the big players.

[Daniel Cooper]

by now I should be enjoying either a Captain's pay or at least a great FO schedule

After 1 YOS?

[Outlaw58]

by now I should be enjoying either a Captain's pay or at least a great FO schedule

After 1 YOS?

Context: Wasn't considering joining Jazz (was looking for a corporate gig at the time) until a friend urged my to consider it in the fall 2017 because of the speed of movement in seniority at Jazz, citing example of FOs upgrading in about a year. I applied with the hopes (not expectations I want to be clear) that things would go the same way for me. Unfortunately, we all saw how things slowed down in 2018 and when I ended up on a shitty reserve call in late 2018, I made that observation.

Circumstantial. I know that those are not reasonable expectations based on 1 YOS, but I dared hope based on recent history.

I have options, exercised them and regardless of that comment, still happily employed at Jazz.

58

[Kaykay]

GGN guys got pfo'd at Jazz. We worked hard at our interviews and got in. BOTL is a fair deal. If you're not happy to have a job after you've lost yours then go to swg or air Tran.

On a side note; going to Swg or TS would be a better move than Jazz. I did all them and I don’t miss Jazz at all ...paycheck and lifestyle are WAY BETTER at SWG and TS....but I agree Jazz is a nice flight school for the big players.

-giggle-

[Jettime3]

Unity across the board? That's a little communist for my liking . This is not a merger. Or at least Air Canada does not want us to think it is . If it is, I'll wait for the memo . Back to unity . And I'm not singing KUMBAYA. MY DOH is like my social security number and it belongs to me and only me. GGN took our CRJ flying from us 5 years ago and now we get it back . I have no issue with the pilots coming to work here . We already have 2 tiers of pay . Which one will they be? As far as I'm concerned they can go to to bottom of the list. At least they have a job which is a lot more than many other pilots got when companies like Royal , Jetsgo, Canada 3000, and Zoom went bye bye .

[Jettime3]

What will happen to those are scheduled for CA upgrades at Jazz. Will they get CA protection pay in the event they get bumped.

GGN does not even habe a contract with ALPA. They signed a card and became part of ALPA. They still operate under an old contract from a defunct union because ALPA could never get GGN to the bargaining table . Upgrades at Jazz should go as planned! Every Jazz pilot should be honored with their due seniority and scheduled upgrade. No GGN pilot should bump a Jazz pilot. They can come over and slot in after our guys are given their due diligence. Some of our guys habe been waiting to upgrade so ALPA best see they do.

[Jettime3]

I get it and I know it will greatly affect me. It would suck to sit where I am when I thought at the time I got hire that by now I should be enjoying either a Captain's pay or at least a great FO schedule, It would suck to see GGN guys hired after me slide right into a CRJ spot I'd like to have a shot at. But what would suck even more, would be to go:"screw you GGN, BOTL, sucks to be you" and not put my money where my mouth is, when I have been so vocal (not necessarily on this forum) in the past about recognizing time in the industry and experience instead of that going straight to the BTL every time you make a career move (forced or otherwise).

and I'm bottom 1/4 btw.

58

No one is saying screw you . Some of us have seen job loss before . Zoom, Canjet, Harmony etc. The 20 somethings do not even understand that but they should understand that seniority and DOH belongs to the individual. GGN can come and I'll welcome them but they go to the bottom . The same way they would at TS or Mainline . That's how it is. And ALPA best make sure it's going to be conducted like that.

[Irony]

Last I checked we weren't ACPA.

BOTL? A lot of people whined about how Jazz pilots dragged the industry down with the A/B scale. Most of them fly for us now and support throwing GGN pilots under the bus...What hypocrisy.... Now there is a chance to make it right...to bring GGN pilots aboard proudly and what do I see? ACPA all over again.

This isn't the first time pilots have slit each others throats for a number. I for one won't stand by those principles. We are ALL airmen and airwomen and must stand together. The regional narrative has gone on far too long.

Oh and from my understanding...no one would even be affected by the pay guarantees (paid for by Air Canada apparently) as the vaccuum of mainline would MORE than offset a dozen guys a month bidding on vacancies over 4 bases

Get with it and make positive history for a change.


GGN brothers and sisters, you are welcome to Jazz.

[teacher]

Full disclosure, I went to AC on PML 1.0 and have no skin in this game.

Having said that in my MANY years at Jazz I heard A LOT of ridicule about AC and the Canadian merger, the "lawsuit" and ACPA screwing others to better itself and how in the end it ended up sinking the whole industry. Now the Jazz pilots have a chance to do something different. Remember this:

1) GGN is not bankrupt and as far as anyone knows this was a negotiated agreement as GGN did not want to deal with a union.
2) GGN pilots are bringing THEIR planes to Jazz. More planes, more positions and more pilots. Will anyone actually be affected by DOH compared to no planes and no pilots coming over? Sounds like almost a wash to me.
3) Don't think those planes are GGN's? Ask a non PML Air Canada guy who they think Jazz's jets ACTUALLY belong too.
4) There is no pilot shortage in Canada. Just look at ACs ground schools when Jazz said "stop hiring from us" a while back. TRANSAT, SUNWING, WESTJET and ENCORE along with military and corporate pilots filled the ground schools with ease.
5) Jazz does not hold the money bag. AC does. If you want more from Jazz than they must get more from AC. Will AC pony up?
6) Has an arbitrated settlement ever benefited a pilot group in Canada? Ever?
7) 400 new hires a year at AC. In less than a year any changes to the seniority list will be absorbed and gone. Enough said.

I for one have always believed that pilots in Canada deserve more. Across the board and especially in the junior ranks. However because of the way our industry is structured we have limited power. Like it or not those are the facts. Before voting think hard. Is no deal better? Is trying to go head to head with AC again worth it? Do you really think you can do better? A wise pilot once told me "you don't get what you deserve. You get what you negotiate." If you think you can negotiate more GO FOR IT! If you don't realistically think if it is worth the risk of no deal?

This is all for you and you alone to decide. If I were at Jazz still I'd seriously be thinking of long term stability, pilot unity, getting rid of another CPA provider and getting a REAL PML to get things moving. I do agree the money could be better in the lower levels but not sure what can be done and where it would come from.

Good luck folks!