Think carefully before you make your next move

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CFM56
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by CFM56 »

ikarus wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:35 pm Lightchop.....I am thinking very careful and I say NO to this FIRST offer. There will be another round of negotiations if we stick together. And if there isn't one, so be it. Let GGN keep their CRJs and fly them harder and for less pay then us. Let them even get 900s....plenty of other airlines hiring around. But you are too much comfortable and afraid to stand up for yourself. Just like half the other guys who voted in the current CA few years back. Now everyone is complaining and whining about but they still said YES.....so here is another chance to confirm this new CA and be miserable for the next 17 years.

Truedude,

I like your mentality and the way you think....sorry my friend but we seem to be a minority unfortunately :cry:
Not sure how much of a minority it is... there are lots not happy about it that I’ve spoken to in the last couple days.
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by Rowdy »

Every single person ive talked to today about this thinks its a load of shit. The crew room and hallways were filled with distrust for the mec and the company.

It will be a hard no from me.
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by Chips&Pops »

Lightchop wrote: Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:55 pm AC just announced today the repatriation of a lot of Express routes. With this agreement we would be securing work for seventeen years. At the same time AC has shown their willingness to take flying back. With the addition of the C-Series I think it's a very possible chance if we don't do this deal we will lose many more routes over the next 6 years.

Any other industry that is as volitile as ours they would be thrilled to have security for this long. Jazz does not own their flying, we are a contract carrier living off the whim of Air Canada's moods.

AC has committed to hire no less than 60% of their pilots from Jazz. In seniority. This should kick start the upgrade boom we saw in 2016/2017 as the majority of the first to leave this year will be post 2015 Captains. Even if someone has GGN pilots slot in above them, they should see the upgrade cycle moving again and the perceived disadvantage of DOH for GGN should be negated. This deal is what may actually give them the coveted left seat sooner.

GGN pilots should be transitioning to Jazz over a year, at the same time AC will be taking minimum 60% of their pilots from Jazz, so I don't imagine many people will be affected. AC claims to need between 600-800 pilots this year. If this deal happens that will be approx 360-480 pilots that are all but guaranteed a job at Air Canada this year.

If everyone is so firm in the belief that there is an upcoming pilot shortage, that will be even better for Jazz Pilots. AC being forced to take 60% of their pilots from Jazz, will mean if there is a shortage, Jazz will have no choice but to come back to the table and bargain again. Not to mention there is an opener in 2029 for pay and pension increases.

They mention a blended table. I hope it's close to or meets the former "A scale."

Who gets 2% garantee on not just wages but all expenses, benefits etc every year for 17 years? Postal Workers went on strike over 0.9%.

If this integration goes smoothly you know the next logical step would be to try to fold Sky into Jazz. Bringing over a new type and more pilots would cause the contract to open again. We can then take even more steps up to increase the pay and conditions at Jazz and remove the final competitor in Express.

You can tell how I'm probably going to vote. I honestly hope everyone on this forum who is at Jazz seriously considers all the options and to come to their own conclusions. Ignore the rhetoric on the line. Read the TA, ask questions to your Negotiation Committee and MEC. Do the research and make an informed decision. If at the end if the day you vote no, but made an informed decision that's all anyone can ask for.

Is there a chance that if we say no they will give us all the flying anyways and GGN will close or GGN fails at doing it and it comes here anyways? Sure. I won't deny that but it's a total risk vs reward scenario and I'm not willing to take the risk with the rest of my career.
Thanks EDITED we all appreciate your concerns No more warnings: Doxxing people isn't cool. Next time, it's a permanent ban.
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

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EDITED Doxxing is not cool. Do it again, and it's a permanent ban.
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by Irony »

We doubled down against Calin in 2010...........Sky and GGN were born, YYZ decimated and no right to BID on work for YEARS.

Now we would have a MINIMUM 90% chance at a mainline job...Loyalty from mainline (investment and board member)...chance at US Cpa...pay guarantee...united pay table...pensions....security.... the possibility to unite the express brand under one company again.


Vote no and GGN grows, still stuck with that EYESORE A scale B scale, smaller fleet, fractured group... AC gives us final offer to play in 2023 for less than a quarter of what is in front of us. I would bet on that.

Calin would make a mess...I VOTE YES!!!
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by truedude »

Irony wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:04 pm We doubled down against Calin in 2010...........Sky and GGN were born, YYZ decimated and no right to BID on work for YEARS.

Now we would have a MINIMUM 90% chance at a mainline job...Loyalty from mainline (investment and board member)...chance at US Cpa...pay guarantee...united pay table...pensions....security.... the possibility to unite the express brand under one company again.


Vote no and GGN grows, still stuck with that EYESORE A scale B scale, smaller fleet, fractured group... AC gives us final offer to play in 2023 for less than a quarter of what is in front of us. I would bet on that.

Calin would make a mess...I VOTE YES!!!
Your history is off by a fair bit. We didn't double down against Calin. Our company removed 30 million worth of negotiated items from the table after they felt they had the government in their pocket. We responded. Sky Regional was born shortly after. It is our management that is responsible for Sky Regional existing, not the pilots.

You have no idea what Air Canada will do. GGN is done either way, that much is clear. Calin is working on his exit and will be long gone by 2025. The world will be a very different place by then. Who is to say what will happen, but you are doing is nothing more than speculating and attempting to scare people into voting yes. It won't work. Not on me.
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by Irony »

Take that chance...

in 2023 do you want to play the "what if game".


Go ahead.

respectfully, it's a YES for me.
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by snowcone »

Very firm NO for me
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by mbav8r »

truedude wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:30 pm
Irony wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:04 pm We doubled down against Calin in 2010...........Sky and GGN were born, YYZ decimated and no right to BID on work for YEARS.

Now we would have a MINIMUM 90% chance at a mainline job...Loyalty from mainline (investment and board member)...chance at US Cpa...pay guarantee...united pay table...pensions....security.... the possibility to unite the express brand under one company again.


Vote no and GGN grows, still stuck with that EYESORE A scale B scale, smaller fleet, fractured group... AC gives us final offer to play in 2023 for less than a quarter of what is in front of us. I would bet on that.

Calin would make a mess...I VOTE YES!!!
Your history is off by a fair bit. We didn't double down against Calin. Our company removed 30 million worth of negotiated items from the table after they felt they had the government in their pocket. We responded. Sky Regional was born shortly after. It is our management that is responsible for Sky Regional existing, not the pilots.

You have no idea what Air Canada will do. GGN is done either way, that much is clear. Calin is working on his exit and will be long gone by 2025. The world will be a very different place by then. Who is to say what will happen, but you are doing is nothing more than speculating and attempting to scare people into voting yes. It won't work. Not on me.
Truedude,
It is your recollection that is off, we did in fact double down.
You’re correct that the company removed 30 mil from the table, this was their reaction to the feds indicating they had back to work legislation ready to be tabled however what is lesser known is that the NDP party told our union that they would not return from summer break to pass that legislation.
This is from a person in the room, so I got it from that person not third hand information, Calin told our negotiators that if we go on strike he will reduce us to the minimum the current CPA would allow and we would be laying off pilots, he also swore he would never be in a position to be held hostage by us again, paraphrasing of course. Then, SR and GGN arrived on scene and here we are, I will not call his bluff again and for all Jazz pilots sake I hope we pass this, let me be perfectly clear, there is NO shortage of pilots in Canada. We are taking graduates straight from school, two years later they have their ATPL and seniority for the left seat.
The other factor, what are the chances between now and 2025 we enter some type of recession? This will play a role, I will not bet my retirement on the economy continuing without a hiccup and Calin not having a plan b, this is not fear based, I’m simply aware of our adversary’s capability and willingness to decimate us.
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by C-GGGQ »

We are taking graduates straight from school, two years later they have their ATPL and seniority for the left seat.
To me the fact that you are taking grads at all indicates there is a shortage
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truedude
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by truedude »

mbav8r wrote: Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:23 am
truedude wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:30 pm
Irony wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:04 pm We doubled down against Calin in 2010...........Sky and GGN were born, YYZ decimated and no right to BID on work for YEARS.

Now we would have a MINIMUM 90% chance at a mainline job...Loyalty from mainline (investment and board member)...chance at US Cpa...pay guarantee...united pay table...pensions....security.... the possibility to unite the express brand under one company again.


Vote no and GGN grows, still stuck with that EYESORE A scale B scale, smaller fleet, fractured group... AC gives us final offer to play in 2023 for less than a quarter of what is in front of us. I would bet on that.

Calin would make a mess...I VOTE YES!!!
Your history is off by a fair bit. We didn't double down against Calin. Our company removed 30 million worth of negotiated items from the table after they felt they had the government in their pocket. We responded. Sky Regional was born shortly after. It is our management that is responsible for Sky Regional existing, not the pilots.

You have no idea what Air Canada will do. GGN is done either way, that much is clear. Calin is working on his exit and will be long gone by 2025. The world will be a very different place by then. Who is to say what will happen, but you are doing is nothing more than speculating and attempting to scare people into voting yes. It won't work. Not on me.
Truedude,
It is your recollection that is off, we did in fact double down.
You’re correct that the company removed 30 mil from the table, this was their reaction to the feds indicating they had back to work legislation ready to be tabled however what is lesser known is that the NDP party told our union that they would not return from summer break to pass that legislation.
This is from a person in the room, so I got it from that person not third hand information, Calin told our negotiators that if we go on strike he will reduce us to the minimum the current CPA would allow and we would be laying off pilots, he also swore he would never be in a position to be held hostage by us again, paraphrasing of course. Then, SR and GGN arrived on scene and here we are, I will not call his bluff again and for all Jazz pilots sake I hope we pass this, let me be perfectly clear, there is NO shortage of pilots in Canada. We are taking graduates straight from school, two years later they have their ATPL and seniority for the left seat.
The other factor, what are the chances between now and 2025 we enter some type of recession? This will play a role, I will not bet my retirement on the economy continuing without a hiccup and Calin not having a plan b, this is not fear based, I’m simply aware of our adversary’s capability and willingness to decimate us.
How you can say with a straight face that we are not in a pilot shortage is insane to me. When the pathways program started, we asked a couple schools to send us their best candidates, of which we took a few. We now interview the entire class from all these schools; and our ground schools are now comprised of largely thousand hour pilots or less. Sunwing is taking from the same pool now, and Encore is getting ready to do the same. We have reached the bottom of the well and it is running dry. There are not enough licenses being issued to keep up with the hiring that is forecast in this country--let alone world wide. This is the fits into any model that would describe a shortage. These are called facts, and thus "fact based reality."

As far as Calin goes, we are again not negotiating with Calin. We negotiate with Jazz and Chorus, and if they feel that this is such a great deal and we stand to lose it if we say no, they will bring more to the table. If this is a deal in which they are happy to see disappear, they won't. But I will not be scared or bullied into taking a crappy deal. And I do not need a lecture on who Calin is; I was here in 2010, and I have four family members that were at Air Canada and the regionals during bankruptcy. I saw first hand what he did, and know better than most what he is capable of.

I suggest you give yourself a hypothetical exercise. At what point would this have been a NO for you. At what point would you have stood up and said, I am worth more than this. If they offered no pay raised until 2029? If they asked for money back? At what point would you have said, regardless of what happens, I am not selling myself this cheaply? For me, they have reached that point.

There are not wage re-openers until 2029... What happens if we go through a period of hyperinflation like in the 80's. A 2% raise does not keep pace with projected inflation, so my purchasing power will actually diminish every single year. And a seventeen year contract means nothing to a bankruptcy judge. Corporations have many tools at their disposal to amend contracts, we as labour have virtually none.

I will not predict what will happen if we turn this down. It would be foolish for anyone to try--there are simply too many variables. But what I can say, for me, I know I am worth more than this. I know a seventeen year deal has value that is not being represented in what they are offering us. I have a young family and nearly thirty more years left in this industry. I know the risks. But I will not be selling myself at a discount any longer. You do you, and I will respect whichever way you vote. But do not come onto this forum, and use the fear of the unknown (no matter how certain it may feel to you) to try and frighten people into voting the way you feel they should. I offer no predictions as to what happens if we turn this down, and no certainty that it will turn out okay. I am, however, prepared to find out.
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by mbav8r »

C-GGGQ wrote: Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:42 am
We are taking graduates straight from school, two years later they have their ATPL and seniority for the left seat.
To me the fact that you are taking grads at all indicates there is a shortage
Yes, shortage of experienced pilots not pilots, which is why all the companies just keep lowering their minimums and not upping their pay.
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by Inverted2 »

mbav8r wrote: Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:34 am
C-GGGQ wrote: Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:42 am
We are taking graduates straight from school, two years later they have their ATPL and seniority for the left seat.
To me the fact that you are taking grads at all indicates there is a shortage
Yes, shortage of experienced pilots not pilots, which is why all the companies just keep lowering their minimums and not upping their pay.
That won’t be able to go on for much longer. Lower the requirements too much and sooner or later there will be accidents.
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by mbav8r »

truedude wrote: Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:29 am
mbav8r wrote: Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:23 am
truedude wrote: Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:30 pm

Your history is off by a fair bit. We didn't double down against Calin. Our company removed 30 million worth of negotiated items from the table after they felt they had the government in their pocket. We responded. Sky Regional was born shortly after. It is our management that is responsible for Sky Regional existing, not the pilots.

You have no idea what Air Canada will do. GGN is done either way, that much is clear. Calin is working on his exit and will be long gone by 2025. The world will be a very different place by then. Who is to say what will happen, but you are doing is nothing more than speculating and attempting to scare people into voting yes. It won't work. Not on me.
Truedude,
It is your recollection that is off, we did in fact double down.
You’re correct that the company removed 30 mil from the table, this was their reaction to the feds indicating they had back to work legislation ready to be tabled however what is lesser known is that the NDP party told our union that they would not return from summer break to pass that legislation.
This is from a person in the room, so I got it from that person not third hand information, Calin told our negotiators that if we go on strike he will reduce us to the minimum the current CPA would allow and we would be laying off pilots, he also swore he would never be in a position to be held hostage by us again, paraphrasing of course. Then, SR and GGN arrived on scene and here we are, I will not call his bluff again and for all Jazz pilots sake I hope we pass this, let me be perfectly clear, there is NO shortage of pilots in Canada. We are taking graduates straight from school, two years later they have their ATPL and seniority for the left seat.
The other factor, what are the chances between now and 2025 we enter some type of recession? This will play a role, I will not bet my retirement on the economy continuing without a hiccup and Calin not having a plan b, this is not fear based, I’m simply aware of our adversary’s capability and willingness to decimate us.
How you can say with a straight face that we are not in a pilot shortage is insane to me. When the pathways program started, we asked a couple schools to send us their best candidates, of which we took a few. We now interview the entire class from all these schools; and our ground schools are now comprised of largely thousand hour pilots or less. Sunwing is taking from the same pool now, and Encore is getting ready to do the same. We have reached the bottom of the well and it is running dry. There are not enough licenses being issued to keep up with the hiring that is forecast in this country--let alone world wide. This is the fits into any model that would describe a shortage. These are called facts, and thus "fact based reality."

As far as Calin goes, we are again not negotiating with Calin. We negotiate with Jazz and Chorus, and if they feel that this is such a great deal and we stand to lose it if we say no, they will bring more to the table. If this is a deal in which they are happy to see disappear, they won't. But I will not be scared or bullied into taking a crappy deal. And I do not need a lecture on who Calin is; I was here in 2010, and I have four family members that were at Air Canada and the regionals during bankruptcy. I saw first hand what he did, and know better than most what he is capable of.

I suggest you give yourself a hypothetical exercise. At what point would this have been a NO for you. At what point would you have stood up and said, I am worth more than this. If they offered no pay raised until 2029? If they asked for money back? At what point would you have said, regardless of what happens, I am not selling myself this cheaply? For me, they have reached that point.

There are not wage re-openers until 2029... What happens if we go through a period of hyperinflation like in the 80's. A 2% raise does not keep pace with projected inflation, so my purchasing power will actually diminish every single year. And a seventeen year contract means nothing to a bankruptcy judge. Corporations have many tools at their disposal to amend contracts, we as labour have virtually none.

I will not predict what will happen if we turn this down. It would be foolish for anyone to try--there are simply too many variables. But what I can say, for me, I know I am worth more than this. I know a seventeen year deal has value that is not being represented in what they are offering us. I have a young family and nearly thirty more years left in this industry. I know the risks. But I will not be selling myself at a discount any longer. You do you, and I will respect whichever way you vote. But do not come onto this forum, and use the fear of the unknown (no matter how certain it may feel to you) to try and frighten people into voting the way you feel they should. I offer no predictions as to what happens if we turn this down, and no certainty that it will turn out okay. I am, however, prepared to find out.
I respect that, my risk tolerance has diminished over the years and with much less time left before I retire, well you know where I stand.
As for the where I would draw the line, a pay cut would have done it and I’m not talking inflation related because all that is just a guess.
Reality is, nobody is keeping up with inflation but I’m able to pay my bills and save for retirement, I bought my house on less than half what I make now, empty nest and comfortable life has me happy with what I have.
I would ask you to do an exercise before you commit to what we are “worth”, I did this a long time ago and suspect it hasn’t changed much. Figure out the AC pay per seat on the narrowbody fleet, then ours. At the time when I did this our pay per seat on the CRJ900 was almost exactly the same as the E190 and 320, that’s with status pay, pay per seat on the smaller fleet was obviously more.
Are we worth more, sure but there is a cost per seat mile and if ours was more than mainline, why wouldn’t he just repatriate more to their narrowbodies? Serious question?
One last comment, we are currently still filling our ground schools, therefore no shortage, if that changes so to will the 17 year contract.
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by mbav8r »

Inverted2 wrote: Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:39 am
mbav8r wrote: Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:34 am
C-GGGQ wrote: Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:42 am

To me the fact that you are taking grads at all indicates there is a shortage
Yes, shortage of experienced pilots not pilots, which is why all the companies just keep lowering their minimums and not upping their pay.
That won’t be able to go on for much longer. Lower the requirements too much and sooner or later there will be accidents.
Yes, I agree and it took a Q400 in Buffalo to change things in the U.S, In Canada, they appear to have their heads in the sand, hoping for the best.
How much longer can we go on, anyone’s guess and I don’t have one.
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by Outlaw58 »

truedude wrote: Sat Jan 19, 2019 9:29 am
I suggest you give yourself a hypothetical exercise. At what point would this have been a NO for you. At what point would you have stood up and said, I am worth more than this. If they offered no pay raised until 2029? If they asked for money back? At what point would you have said, regardless of what happens, I am not selling myself this cheaply? For me, they have reached that point.
I tend to go yes, in fact I want to go yes, so this bit shook me up a bit.

Reality is I don't know what would have been the last straw for me. I am a 30 year military helo pilot vet who has never been part of a union before. I am no expert in these kind of negotiation but the way I understand it, we have negotiating committee composed of reps just like us, doing same job we are, same pay, same conditions with the same desire to rectify all the issues that are brought up.

One thing I know though is people. I happen to have flown with one of these negotiating member and I will be at the roadshow, I will walk up to him and have him look me in the eye and tell me this is the best deal we can get.

I'll know which way to vote after that.

58
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by CPT.HarshColdReality »

From a guy sitting at the bottom at Jazz, I was first against DOH for the GGN guys....It's not a merger so screw them right. Why do I have to lose out. After all, I passed all the interview process at Jazz and earned my spot. HOWEVER, after doing some thinking, I am willing to accept them with DOH. My thinking goes:

-All the GGN routes and airplanes that we are getting back at Jazz have to be flown by someone.....Therefore it only makes sense to hire the GGN guys...At the end of the day I don't think much of the schedule will change much...Maybe a few more months on reserve but they should be a clause that protects current Jazz employees from being bumped from their base and captains remaining captains. If someone from GGN is ahead of a junior JAZZ CPT they should not take his CPT position. Yes on the #s list he will be higher but he has to wait for the next opening to upgrade. No budging on that.

-With the increased flow to AC and more airplanes the effect of GGN joining should be minimal and last only 6 months or so in my opinion till things stabilise....and with summer flying coming I am not too worried.

-My final thinking is that at the end of the day we SHOULD ALL GET A BETTER DEAL. This is time to FIX regional aviation. I AM WILLING TO FIGHT!! I am not scared by what ANYONE says. This is the time to STAND UNITED. ALL OF US! If SR was to come in also with DOH I WILL ACCEPT IT. BUT the contract has to be NICE AND JUICY for ALL OF US. we are all brothers and sisters. Let's unite against the big corporate GREED. Most of the pilots at 40 years and below. The old school guys are ALMOST ALL GONE. We are smarter, more connected and less apt to throw eachother on the bus. LETS DO IT RIGHT. This is a massive opportunity and AC is investing in CHR because they believe in us and are OVERALL HAPPY WITH OUT PERFORMANCE. I've been at Jazz for less then a year and everyone works hard and professionally to get it done safely and on time. I am PROUD to say that. This is a deal of a LIFETIME.

I CURRENTLY VOTE A FIRM NO. Send it back to the table and negotiate. I will be going to the roadshow and see what the details are. NEGOCIATION 101, NEVER TAKE THE FIRST DEAL.


IN SOLIDARITY! LETS PROPULSE CANADIAN AVIATION INTO THE OLD GLORY DAYS!
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Re: Think carefully before you make your next move

Post by proper »

It's obtuse to think this is the first deal.

This is the best the negots committee came back with.

Line Pilots don't negotiate they take the TA or they leave the TA.

Roll the dice.
If you vote no... I reserve the right to say I told you so.
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