Think carefully before you make your next move

[TheSocialChameleon]

EDITED Doxxing is not cool. Do it again, and it's a permanent ban.

[Irony]

We doubled down against Calin in 2010...........Sky and GGN were born, YYZ decimated and no right to BID on work for YEARS.

Now we would have a MINIMUM 90% chance at a mainline job...Loyalty from mainline (investment and board member)...chance at US Cpa...pay guarantee...united pay table...pensions....security.... the possibility to unite the express brand under one company again.


Vote no and GGN grows, still stuck with that EYESORE A scale B scale, smaller fleet, fractured group... AC gives us final offer to play in 2023 for less than a quarter of what is in front of us. I would bet on that.

Calin would make a mess...I VOTE YES!!!

[truedude]

We doubled down against Calin in 2010...........Sky and GGN were born, YYZ decimated and no right to BID on work for YEARS.

Now we would have a MINIMUM 90% chance at a mainline job...Loyalty from mainline (investment and board member)...chance at US Cpa...pay guarantee...united pay table...pensions....security.... the possibility to unite the express brand under one company again.


Vote no and GGN grows, still stuck with that EYESORE A scale B scale, smaller fleet, fractured group... AC gives us final offer to play in 2023 for less than a quarter of what is in front of us. I would bet on that.

Calin would make a mess...I VOTE YES!!!

Your history is off by a fair bit. We didn't double down against Calin. Our company removed 30 million worth of negotiated items from the table after they felt they had the government in their pocket. We responded. Sky Regional was born shortly after. It is our management that is responsible for Sky Regional existing, not the pilots.

You have no idea what Air Canada will do. GGN is done either way, that much is clear. Calin is working on his exit and will be long gone by 2025. The world will be a very different place by then. Who is to say what will happen, but you are doing is nothing more than speculating and attempting to scare people into voting yes. It won't work. Not on me.

[Irony]

Take that chance...

in 2023 do you want to play the "what if game".


Go ahead.

respectfully, it's a YES for me.

[snowcone]

Very firm NO for me

[mbav8r]

We doubled down against Calin in 2010...........Sky and GGN were born, YYZ decimated and no right to BID on work for YEARS.

Now we would have a MINIMUM 90% chance at a mainline job...Loyalty from mainline (investment and board member)...chance at US Cpa...pay guarantee...united pay table...pensions....security.... the possibility to unite the express brand under one company again.


Vote no and GGN grows, still stuck with that EYESORE A scale B scale, smaller fleet, fractured group... AC gives us final offer to play in 2023 for less than a quarter of what is in front of us. I would bet on that.

Calin would make a mess...I VOTE YES!!!

Your history is off by a fair bit. We didn't double down against Calin. Our company removed 30 million worth of negotiated items from the table after they felt they had the government in their pocket. We responded. Sky Regional was born shortly after. It is our management that is responsible for Sky Regional existing, not the pilots.

You have no idea what Air Canada will do. GGN is done either way, that much is clear. Calin is working on his exit and will be long gone by 2025. The world will be a very different place by then. Who is to say what will happen, but you are doing is nothing more than speculating and attempting to scare people into voting yes. It won't work. Not on me.

Truedude,
It is your recollection that is off, we did in fact double down.
You’re correct that the company removed 30 mil from the table, this was their reaction to the feds indicating they had back to work legislation ready to be tabled however what is lesser known is that the NDP party told our union that they would not return from summer break to pass that legislation.
This is from a person in the room, so I got it from that person not third hand information, Calin told our negotiators that if we go on strike he will reduce us to the minimum the current CPA would allow and we would be laying off pilots, he also swore he would never be in a position to be held hostage by us again, paraphrasing of course. Then, SR and GGN arrived on scene and here we are, I will not call his bluff again and for all Jazz pilots sake I hope we pass this, let me be perfectly clear, there is NO shortage of pilots in Canada. We are taking graduates straight from school, two years later they have their ATPL and seniority for the left seat.
The other factor, what are the chances between now and 2025 we enter some type of recession? This will play a role, I will not bet my retirement on the economy continuing without a hiccup and Calin not having a plan b, this is not fear based, I’m simply aware of our adversary’s capability and willingness to decimate us.

[C-GGGQ]

We are taking graduates straight from school, two years later they have their ATPL and seniority for the left seat.

To me the fact that you are taking grads at all indicates there is a shortage

[truedude]

We doubled down against Calin in 2010...........Sky and GGN were born, YYZ decimated and no right to BID on work for YEARS.

Now we would have a MINIMUM 90% chance at a mainline job...Loyalty from mainline (investment and board member)...chance at US Cpa...pay guarantee...united pay table...pensions....security.... the possibility to unite the express brand under one company again.


Vote no and GGN grows, still stuck with that EYESORE A scale B scale, smaller fleet, fractured group... AC gives us final offer to play in 2023 for less than a quarter of what is in front of us. I would bet on that.

Calin would make a mess...I VOTE YES!!!

Your history is off by a fair bit. We didn't double down against Calin. Our company removed 30 million worth of negotiated items from the table after they felt they had the government in their pocket. We responded. Sky Regional was born shortly after. It is our management that is responsible for Sky Regional existing, not the pilots.

You have no idea what Air Canada will do. GGN is done either way, that much is clear. Calin is working on his exit and will be long gone by 2025. The world will be a very different place by then. Who is to say what will happen, but you are doing is nothing more than speculating and attempting to scare people into voting yes. It won't work. Not on me.

Truedude,
It is your recollection that is off, we did in fact double down.
You’re correct that the company removed 30 mil from the table, this was their reaction to the feds indicating they had back to work legislation ready to be tabled however what is lesser known is that the NDP party told our union that they would not return from summer break to pass that legislation.
This is from a person in the room, so I got it from that person not third hand information, Calin told our negotiators that if we go on strike he will reduce us to the minimum the current CPA would allow and we would be laying off pilots, he also swore he would never be in a position to be held hostage by us again, paraphrasing of course. Then, SR and GGN arrived on scene and here we are, I will not call his bluff again and for all Jazz pilots sake I hope we pass this, let me be perfectly clear, there is NO shortage of pilots in Canada. We are taking graduates straight from school, two years later they have their ATPL and seniority for the left seat.
The other factor, what are the chances between now and 2025 we enter some type of recession? This will play a role, I will not bet my retirement on the economy continuing without a hiccup and Calin not having a plan b, this is not fear based, I’m simply aware of our adversary’s capability and willingness to decimate us.

How you can say with a straight face that we are not in a pilot shortage is insane to me. When the pathways program started, we asked a couple schools to send us their best candidates, of which we took a few. We now interview the entire class from all these schools; and our ground schools are now comprised of largely thousand hour pilots or less. Sunwing is taking from the same pool now, and Encore is getting ready to do the same. We have reached the bottom of the well and it is running dry. There are not enough licenses being issued to keep up with the hiring that is forecast in this country--let alone world wide. This is the fits into any model that would describe a shortage. These are called facts, and thus "fact based reality."

As far as Calin goes, we are again not negotiating with Calin. We negotiate with Jazz and Chorus, and if they feel that this is such a great deal and we stand to lose it if we say no, they will bring more to the table. If this is a deal in which they are happy to see disappear, they won't. But I will not be scared or bullied into taking a crappy deal. And I do not need a lecture on who Calin is; I was here in 2010, and I have four family members that were at Air Canada and the regionals during bankruptcy. I saw first hand what he did, and know better than most what he is capable of.

I suggest you give yourself a hypothetical exercise. At what point would this have been a NO for you. At what point would you have stood up and said, I am worth more than this. If they offered no pay raised until 2029? If they asked for money back? At what point would you have said, regardless of what happens, I am not selling myself this cheaply? For me, they have reached that point.

There are not wage re-openers until 2029... What happens if we go through a period of hyperinflation like in the 80's. A 2% raise does not keep pace with projected inflation, so my purchasing power will actually diminish every single year. And a seventeen year contract means nothing to a bankruptcy judge. Corporations have many tools at their disposal to amend contracts, we as labour have virtually none.

I will not predict what will happen if we turn this down. It would be foolish for anyone to try--there are simply too many variables. But what I can say, for me, I know I am worth more than this. I know a seventeen year deal has value that is not being represented in what they are offering us. I have a young family and nearly thirty more years left in this industry. I know the risks. But I will not be selling myself at a discount any longer. You do you, and I will respect whichever way you vote. But do not come onto this forum, and use the fear of the unknown (no matter how certain it may feel to you) to try and frighten people into voting the way you feel they should. I offer no predictions as to what happens if we turn this down, and no certainty that it will turn out okay. I am, however, prepared to find out.

[mbav8r]

We are taking graduates straight from school, two years later they have their ATPL and seniority for the left seat.

To me the fact that you are taking grads at all indicates there is a shortage

Yes, shortage of experienced pilots not pilots, which is why all the companies just keep lowering their minimums and not upping their pay.

[Inverted2]

We are taking graduates straight from school, two years later they have their ATPL and seniority for the left seat.

To me the fact that you are taking grads at all indicates there is a shortage

Yes, shortage of experienced pilots not pilots, which is why all the companies just keep lowering their minimums and not upping their pay.

That won’t be able to go on for much longer. Lower the requirements too much and sooner or later there will be accidents.

[mbav8r]

Your history is off by a fair bit. We didn't double down against Calin. Our company removed 30 million worth of negotiated items from the table after they felt they had the government in their pocket. We responded. Sky Regional was born shortly after. It is our management that is responsible for Sky Regional existing, not the pilots.

You have no idea what Air Canada will do. GGN is done either way, that much is clear. Calin is working on his exit and will be long gone by 2025. The world will be a very different place by then. Who is to say what will happen, but you are doing is nothing more than speculating and attempting to scare people into voting yes. It won't work. Not on me.

Truedude,
It is your recollection that is off, we did in fact double down.
You’re correct that the company removed 30 mil from the table, this was their reaction to the feds indicating they had back to work legislation ready to be tabled however what is lesser known is that the NDP party told our union that they would not return from summer break to pass that legislation.
This is from a person in the room, so I got it from that person not third hand information, Calin told our negotiators that if we go on strike he will reduce us to the minimum the current CPA would allow and we would be laying off pilots, he also swore he would never be in a position to be held hostage by us again, paraphrasing of course. Then, SR and GGN arrived on scene and here we are, I will not call his bluff again and for all Jazz pilots sake I hope we pass this, let me be perfectly clear, there is NO shortage of pilots in Canada. We are taking graduates straight from school, two years later they have their ATPL and seniority for the left seat.
The other factor, what are the chances between now and 2025 we enter some type of recession? This will play a role, I will not bet my retirement on the economy continuing without a hiccup and Calin not having a plan b, this is not fear based, I’m simply aware of our adversary’s capability and willingness to decimate us.

How you can say with a straight face that we are not in a pilot shortage is insane to me. When the pathways program started, we asked a couple schools to send us their best candidates, of which we took a few. We now interview the entire class from all these schools; and our ground schools are now comprised of largely thousand hour pilots or less. Sunwing is taking from the same pool now, and Encore is getting ready to do the same. We have reached the bottom of the well and it is running dry. There are not enough licenses being issued to keep up with the hiring that is forecast in this country--let alone world wide. This is the fits into any model that would describe a shortage. These are called facts, and thus "fact based reality."

As far as Calin goes, we are again not negotiating with Calin. We negotiate with Jazz and Chorus, and if they feel that this is such a great deal and we stand to lose it if we say no, they will bring more to the table. If this is a deal in which they are happy to see disappear, they won't. But I will not be scared or bullied into taking a crappy deal. And I do not need a lecture on who Calin is; I was here in 2010, and I have four family members that were at Air Canada and the regionals during bankruptcy. I saw first hand what he did, and know better than most what he is capable of.

I suggest you give yourself a hypothetical exercise. At what point would this have been a NO for you. At what point would you have stood up and said, I am worth more than this. If they offered no pay raised until 2029? If they asked for money back? At what point would you have said, regardless of what happens, I am not selling myself this cheaply? For me, they have reached that point.

There are not wage re-openers until 2029... What happens if we go through a period of hyperinflation like in the 80's. A 2% raise does not keep pace with projected inflation, so my purchasing power will actually diminish every single year. And a seventeen year contract means nothing to a bankruptcy judge. Corporations have many tools at their disposal to amend contracts, we as labour have virtually none.

I will not predict what will happen if we turn this down. It would be foolish for anyone to try--there are simply too many variables. But what I can say, for me, I know I am worth more than this. I know a seventeen year deal has value that is not being represented in what they are offering us. I have a young family and nearly thirty more years left in this industry. I know the risks. But I will not be selling myself at a discount any longer. You do you, and I will respect whichever way you vote. But do not come onto this forum, and use the fear of the unknown (no matter how certain it may feel to you) to try and frighten people into voting the way you feel they should. I offer no predictions as to what happens if we turn this down, and no certainty that it will turn out okay. I am, however, prepared to find out.

I respect that, my risk tolerance has diminished over the years and with much less time left before I retire, well you know where I stand.
As for the where I would draw the line, a pay cut would have done it and I’m not talking inflation related because all that is just a guess.
Reality is, nobody is keeping up with inflation but I’m able to pay my bills and save for retirement, I bought my house on less than half what I make now, empty nest and comfortable life has me happy with what I have.
I would ask you to do an exercise before you commit to what we are “worth”, I did this a long time ago and suspect it hasn’t changed much. Figure out the AC pay per seat on the narrowbody fleet, then ours. At the time when I did this our pay per seat on the CRJ900 was almost exactly the same as the E190 and 320, that’s with status pay, pay per seat on the smaller fleet was obviously more.
Are we worth more, sure but there is a cost per seat mile and if ours was more than mainline, why wouldn’t he just repatriate more to their narrowbodies? Serious question?
One last comment, we are currently still filling our ground schools, therefore no shortage, if that changes so to will the 17 year contract.

[mbav8r]

To me the fact that you are taking grads at all indicates there is a shortage

Yes, shortage of experienced pilots not pilots, which is why all the companies just keep lowering their minimums and not upping their pay.

That won’t be able to go on for much longer. Lower the requirements too much and sooner or later there will be accidents.

Yes, I agree and it took a Q400 in Buffalo to change things in the U.S, In Canada, they appear to have their heads in the sand, hoping for the best.
How much longer can we go on, anyone’s guess and I don’t have one.

[Outlaw58]

I suggest you give yourself a hypothetical exercise. At what point would this have been a NO for you. At what point would you have stood up and said, I am worth more than this. If they offered no pay raised until 2029? If they asked for money back? At what point would you have said, regardless of what happens, I am not selling myself this cheaply? For me, they have reached that point.

I tend to go yes, in fact I want to go yes, so this bit shook me up a bit.

Reality is I don't know what would have been the last straw for me. I am a 30 year military helo pilot vet who has never been part of a union before. I am no expert in these kind of negotiation but the way I understand it, we have negotiating committee composed of reps just like us, doing same job we are, same pay, same conditions with the same desire to rectify all the issues that are brought up.

One thing I know though is people. I happen to have flown with one of these negotiating member and I will be at the roadshow, I will walk up to him and have him look me in the eye and tell me this is the best deal we can get.

I'll know which way to vote after that.

58

[CPT.HarshColdReality]

From a guy sitting at the bottom at Jazz, I was first against DOH for the GGN guys....It's not a merger so screw them right. Why do I have to lose out. After all, I passed all the interview process at Jazz and earned my spot. HOWEVER, after doing some thinking, I am willing to accept them with DOH. My thinking goes:

-All the GGN routes and airplanes that we are getting back at Jazz have to be flown by someone.....Therefore it only makes sense to hire the GGN guys...At the end of the day I don't think much of the schedule will change much...Maybe a few more months on reserve but they should be a clause that protects current Jazz employees from being bumped from their base and captains remaining captains. If someone from GGN is ahead of a junior JAZZ CPT they should not take his CPT position. Yes on the #s list he will be higher but he has to wait for the next opening to upgrade. No budging on that.

-With the increased flow to AC and more airplanes the effect of GGN joining should be minimal and last only 6 months or so in my opinion till things stabilise....and with summer flying coming I am not too worried.

-My final thinking is that at the end of the day we SHOULD ALL GET A BETTER DEAL. This is time to FIX regional aviation. I AM WILLING TO FIGHT!! I am not scared by what ANYONE says. This is the time to STAND UNITED. ALL OF US! If SR was to come in also with DOH I WILL ACCEPT IT. BUT the contract has to be NICE AND JUICY for ALL OF US. we are all brothers and sisters. Let's unite against the big corporate GREED. Most of the pilots at 40 years and below. The old school guys are ALMOST ALL GONE. We are smarter, more connected and less apt to throw eachother on the bus. LETS DO IT RIGHT. This is a massive opportunity and AC is investing in CHR because they believe in us and are OVERALL HAPPY WITH OUT PERFORMANCE. I've been at Jazz for less then a year and everyone works hard and professionally to get it done safely and on time. I am PROUD to say that. This is a deal of a LIFETIME.

I CURRENTLY VOTE A FIRM NO. Send it back to the table and negotiate. I will be going to the roadshow and see what the details are. NEGOCIATION 101, NEVER TAKE THE FIRST DEAL.


IN SOLIDARITY! LETS PROPULSE CANADIAN AVIATION INTO THE OLD GLORY DAYS!

[proper]

It's obtuse to think this is the first deal.

This is the best the negots committee came back with.

Line Pilots don't negotiate they take the TA or they leave the TA.

Roll the dice.
If you vote no... I reserve the right to say I told you so.

[truedude]

It's obtuse to think this is the first deal.

This is the best the negots committee came back with.

Line Pilots don't negotiate they take the TA or they leave the TA.

Roll the dice.
If you vote no... I reserve the right to say I told you so.

First off, I would never vote no believe there is a better deal. This comes to what I believe I am personally worth, and we as a group are wroth. If we vote no and it turns out we all get fucked, I will buy you a round. But if we vote yes, and still get fucked, you owe me a round. Deal?

[Side_slip]

I will be voting NO.

Can you imagine if the U.S. regionals locked in a 17 year TA (10 years cost neutral) when they were making $18k a year? Just under the guise of stability? Now they are getting signing bonuses and gains like never before. AC and Chorus know this is coming and want to lock us in at these bargain prices. Did you know on the new blended payscale it takes until 2030 for a 2nd year FO to make what they made on our pre-2015 pay scale in 2017? Complete joke. If they want us to sign an unprecedented 17 year TA they should have made us an unprecedented offer. This a sad load of trash.

[mbav8r]

It's obtuse to think this is the first deal.

This is the best the negots committee came back with.

Line Pilots don't negotiate they take the TA or they leave the TA.

Roll the dice.
If you vote no... I reserve the right to say I told you so.

First off, I would never vote no believe there is a better deal. This comes to what I believe I am personally worth, and we as a group are wroth. If we vote no and it turns out we all get fucked, I will buy you a round. But if we vote yes, and still get fucked, you owe me a round. Deal?

It’s not about your worth, it’s about what you can get.
Did you do what I suggested? The cost of a pilot per seat is the biggest factor and is no doubt already factored in this deal, if we cost more per seat than mainline, how do you see that playing out?

[mbav8r]

I will be voting NO.

Can you imagine if the U.S. regionals locked in a 17 year TA (10 years cost neutral) when they were making $18k a year? Just under the guise of stability? Now they are getting signing bonuses and gains like never before. AC and Chorus know this is coming and want to lock us in at these bargain prices. Did you know on the new blended payscale it takes until 2030 for a 2nd year FO to make what they made on our pre-2015 pay scale in 2017? Complete joke. If they want us to sign an unprecedented 17 year TA they should have made us an unprecedented offer. This a sad load of trash.

We need to stop comparing ourselves to the current US landscape, when they were leading the race to the bottom were you in a hurry to join them?
All the gains being made in the US are outside of bargaining, for the most part and a direct result of not being able to put 250 hour pilots in a 50+ seat passenger jet, not indirectly, directly. Change that and I will stand with you on the picket line, without that we are not in the same boat.
One thing being looked at is the cadet program, join the program, sign your next 20 years over and we will train you into a job, so again, lobby the government to change the rule that allows a fresh CPL to occupy a transport category aircraft and I start picketing that day.

[truedude]

It's obtuse to think this is the first deal.

This is the best the negots committee came back with.

Line Pilots don't negotiate they take the TA or they leave the TA.

Roll the dice.
If you vote no... I reserve the right to say I told you so.

First off, I would never vote no believe there is a better deal. This comes to what I believe I am personally worth, and we as a group are wroth. If we vote no and it turns out we all get fucked, I will buy you a round. But if we vote yes, and still get fucked, you owe me a round. Deal?

It’s not about your worth, it’s about what you can get.
Did you do what I suggested? The cost of a pilot per seat is the biggest factor and is no doubt already factored in this deal, if we cost more per seat than mainline, how do you see that playing out?

And I say we can get/deserve a one time large signing bonus. The number spread out over 17 years ends up being virtually nothing a month per pilot and will add what, .01 of a cent to the ASM price.. if that? They can take out a low interest loan and pay it back over the next seventeen years and be fine. This is worth something today! If it isn't I am sure management will forgo all their bonuses?

In the end, I will no longer go through life worrying about the deal I can get. I know my worth, and will seek it out. If it isn't at Jazz, then so be it. And I am not speaking solely in monetary terms. My vote is no, if others vote yes, i respect it, won't be grudge it, and continue on with no hard feelings or bitterness.

[Malfunction]

My vote is also no.
We can do better everyone, jazz is making alot of money on this deal, we are not getting much...

[Character]

Haven’t posted in a VERY long time. I’m doing so because of my belief that we need to vote YES. Are we worth more? Yes. Is it worth gambling my pension, my accrued seniority, my career stability. No. In the end, as a 13 yr Jazz pilot, I’m paid fairly, I’ve been afforded a great quality of life and I have a pension that I hold dear to my heart. We cannot compare ourselves to the US pilot compensation packages anymore than the AC pilots. We operate under a unique set of circumstances under the umbrella of a CPA. CR is a shrewd and more importantly spiteful individual. Rest assured, there’s a plan B, and it won’t benefit our group. This of course is my opinion. It is nothing more than food for thought as I take and respect everyone’s opinion on this forum. It is unfortunate that our MEC has tabled this deal in the first place to our group however, we have now been put into a dangerous position and what I believe to be a fork in the road moment. I simply am not comfortable taking a gamble, therefore I vote Yes and I implore others to think about potential consequences. Thanks.

Character

[Malfunction]

There is alot of money on the table for both parties, are you sure ac and jazz will walk away from increasing wages by a little bit. I dont, I think we can fix the 2015 deal here. MAKE JAZZ GREAT AGAIN!

[C-GGGQ]

While I understand the fears here especially due to who you are dealing with, I don't see them being able to roll up jazz like they are doing to Georgian. Why? Almost no one outside of our profession knows there is an Air Georgian. It's just AC express to them or even more incorrectly Jazz (yes there is a large portion of Joe q public who thinks anything painted AC express is just Jazz.) Jazz is a name everyone across the country remembers. It would be a hard sell that any reason other than spite was behind any move to get rid of it.

[mbav8r]

Maybe we should poll the SR pilots, show them our contract and see how they would vote, my guess it would pass.
Now, that being said, if Rovinescue’s plan B is to walk across the street, all he has to do is take this contract and say this will be your CPA 2025 on, how would that vote go?
If you are willing to find that out, just remember, it’s not just your career you’re gambling with, it’s all of ours and I’m truly hoping we live to fight another day.
I once negotiated a raise for myself because I felt I was worth more, I was making 20% more than the four other pilots doing the same job. One night the the payroll office door was left open and another pilot saw the payroll book open on her desk(his story), anyhow he told the other pilots and they went to the owner to demand more or they quit.
The owner came to me and explained the situation and that he could not afford to pay the pilots the same so wanted me to take a pay cut back to the original salary, I did.
It was not about me and what I was worth at the moment it was about the good of the company and later on, about a year later I was management with a negotiated salary that reflected my worth and my sacrifice earlier.
The problem here is you think Air Canada is desperate with no options, that would be a mistake to think that, absolute best case we turn it down and they come back with a few tweaks, worst case we are all hoping SR pilots will give us date of hire in five years when they take over for us.
Even with the best case, a few tweaks would be all we could hope to attain but one thing for sure a no vote signals to Calin he’s still dealing with the same group of pilots who will hold him hostage again in 2025 when our contract does expire, he will initiate plan b long before that.