Norwegian Air

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sanjet
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Re: Norwegian Air

Post by sanjet »

complexintentions wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:48 am Thank you for your thorough, insightful analysis. :lol:
Jack Klumpus wrote: Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:55 pm
Who ever says they’ll be out of cash soon is misinformed.


I was off by a few months.

Sad for the employees involved, doesn't look good.
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Jack Klumpus
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Re: Norwegian Air

Post by Jack Klumpus »

dumbbell daddy wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:58 am To Jack and Complex,

Do you think they will ever open up a Canadian base like they have in the US, and hire on the 737/787?

Might be wishful thinking but stranger things have happened........
Apologies for the late reply. I don’t check in often.

Given their current situation, I highly doubt they will enter the Canadian market with bases. Their current plan is to offer long haul LCC from Europe to Canada, and they can do that within their current scope If operations. There is no advantage to reverse that and base their pilots (and crew?) in Canada.
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Jack Klumpus
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Re: Norwegian Air

Post by Jack Klumpus »

sanjet wrote: Mon Feb 18, 2019 2:43 pm
complexintentions wrote: Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:48 am Thank you for your thorough, insightful analysis. :lol:
Jack Klumpus wrote: Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:55 pm
Who ever says they’ll be out of cash soon is misinformed.
A lot of things can happen in a few months in aviation. They made it past the summer, and they’re going through. They’ve re-assesses their model and hopefully can continue their business. I would hate for an airline of this size to go bust.

I was off by a few months.

Sad for the employees involved, doesn't look good.
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pianokeys
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Re: Norwegian Air

Post by pianokeys »

Redwine wrote: Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:20 pm This shit airline caters to the millennium travelers who have no clue what air travel used to be like.
The shit airline that is also ALPA banned, #denyNAI . They contribute to the dilution of pilots and the industry as a whole. Good riddance.
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complexintentions
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Re: Norwegian Air

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Riddance? Perhaps you're getting confused with Flybmi? :mrgreen:
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florch
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Re: Norwegian Air

Post by florch »

pianokeys wrote: Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:36 am
Redwine wrote: Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:20 pm This shit airline caters to the millennium travelers who have no clue what air travel used to be like.
The shit airline that is also ALPA banned, #denyNAI . They contribute to the dilution of pilots and the industry as a whole. Good riddance.
How does supply and demand work in your world?

In general the more pilots needed in Canada, the higher the wages, no? That is, provided employers are competing, not like the Air Canada regional whipsaw game. So if transcon flying wants to base here that gives Canadian pilots more options and makes employers step up to what the market demands - an equation airlines apparently understand, but pilots as a group do not.

What am I missing?
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pianokeys
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Re: Norwegian Air

Post by pianokeys »

florch wrote: Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:19 am What am I missing?
Understanding on how the industry works.

The simple fact is there is not a pilot shortage. And even if there was one, that doesnt mean wages will increase. That basic, folklore-like thinking about economics isnt so. Just because there isnt people to do a job doesnt mean that wages will or have to go up to entice prospective employees.

I personally believe the workforce is not compensated based off demand as much as its based off skill, risk and liability, and education for that skill. Why do you think Tims pays dick? And why do you think Doctors are paid handsomely? The truth is, even our pilot brothers in the states that are making peanuts flying for regional carriers are still accepting jobs and still earning dick, wages have seldom increased for regional pilots. There is no incentive for airlines to pay their pilots well because there is a line up of Instagram-wannabes who will do the job just for the ability to say their a pilot.

You need to read on NAI and their horrible practices. Lets put it this way, its very similar to how cruise ship companies register their boats in a country with lax labour laws. An international carrier who has a training bond on WB aircraft? LOL.
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Re: Norwegian Air

Post by Diadem »

Even the CEO has so little faith in the company that he sold his shares at a discount: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/inve ... -p3kwmjs5p
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florch
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Re: Norwegian Air

Post by florch »

pianokeys wrote: Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:28 pm
florch wrote: Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:19 am What am I missing?
Understanding on how the industry works.

The simple fact is there is not a pilot shortage. And even if there was one, that doesnt mean wages will increase. That basic, folklore-like thinking about economics isnt so. Just because there isnt people to do a job doesnt mean that wages will or have to go up to entice prospective employees.

I personally believe the workforce is not compensated based off demand as much as its based off skill, risk and liability, and education for that skill. Why do you think Tims pays dick? And why do you think Doctors are paid handsomely? The truth is, even our pilot brothers in the states that are making peanuts flying for regional carriers are still accepting jobs and still earning dick, wages have seldom increased for regional pilots. There is no incentive for airlines to pay their pilots well because there is a line up of Instagram-wannabes who will do the job just for the ability to say their a pilot.

You need to read on NAI and their horrible practices. Lets put it this way, its very similar to how cruise ship companies register their boats in a country with lax labour laws. An international carrier who has a training bond on WB aircraft? LOL.
Having skill and being able to take responsibility make you less common - less SUPPLY.

Some companies IE regionals have to compete with each other for work from the majors, and pilot groups sell themselves short to compete for it. Pitting regionals against each other is a manipulation of the SUPPLY/DEMAND curve. This is one of the only reasons that supply demand isn't perfectly represented. Another is if unions can manipulate the supply, or individuals get satisfied or comfortable and don't demand what they could.

The Majors in the US OTOH pay much better than they do in Canada, not because they WANT to, or they FEEL that an airline pilot is worth $X. They pay because they are competing for experienced pilots - there is DEMAND. There is no shortage of pilots, I agree, just a shortage of 10,000 hour pilots that will work for $50k.

Crappy airlines will still exist, I don't doubt you that NAI may be one of them. I'm not even going to look because I'm satisfied where I am and I have worked for horror shows in the past. Bottom feeders will be a training school for other airlines and a haven for people who have found their way there by circumstances. It's not my job to decide who gets to exist or have a job - do you feel you are in a position to govern such decisions? Should it be centrally planned in your estimation? If we want to live in Canada, we need to work for a company that at least has a Canadian base. If they base Canadians here, the pilots have to come from somewhere, (increased DEMAND) and the airlines will compete for guys with WAWCON. Provided those jobs are filled by Canadians and not imported pilots (increasing SUPPLY) that WILL put upward pressure on Canadian salaries.
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pianokeys
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Re: Norwegian Air

Post by pianokeys »

florch wrote: Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:35 am that WILL put downward pressure on Canadian salaries.
Fixed it for you.

If an operators main game is to provide low cost flying, where do you think the money for that will come from? WAWCON thats where. And if you as the low cost operator price yourselves below your competitor, the competitor will need to take measures to save themselves or be out of business. And, as history demonstrates, the first place to save is on wages. So yeah there could be a DEMAND for more pilots, but not at favorable wages. Especially if the angle is lowest possible fare.

Prime example, look at any low cost carriers pay compared to a legacy carrier on the same type in the US. They pay less than the big boys. Or, as you gave me in your counter argument, regional airlines. We can do it cheaper just dilutes the competitors, its predatory.

SUPPLY and DEMAND curves are microeconomics, simplest form. But in a macroeconomical picture, the SUPPLY and DEMAND curve is a lot different then what you would like to believe and argued. DEMAND for jobs does not mean wages will increase.
florch wrote: Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:35 amThey pay because they are competing for experienced pilots - there is DEMAND.
I also dont think the majors in the US pay because they "want" experienced pilots, its because the pilots negotiated for those wages.
florch wrote: Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:35 amIt's not my job to decide who gets to exist or have a job - do you feel you are in a position to govern such decisions? Should it be centrally planned in your estimation?
Not sure what this has to do with anything, and not sure what I estimated either. I still dont think you understand how this industry works, nor do I understand why youve glossed over such blatant facts that have historically repeated themselves hundreds of times in this industry.
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complexintentions
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Re: Norwegian Air

Post by complexintentions »

Sorry pianokeys, but you just seem a bit ignorant of how the industry works outside of Canada.

Training bonds are commonplace at all kinds of carriers, both inside and out of Canada, on all types of equipment. If you don't think the shit wages for the 1st four years at AC or the starting wages at WS/Encore aren't a form of bondage, then you're just deluding yourself. Either system is a way of recovering training costs. I've taken more than one WB DEC job and never had a bond because I had the type rating already...no type training cost to the employer.

Your understanding of how compensation is derived is overly simplistic ("Tims pays dick, doctors make lots" etc). Skill and education are one component, but supply and demand are far more important. That's why Tims pays more in (or used to) in Ft. Mac than it does in Toronto, it's why the College of Surgeons and Physicians artificially constrains the supply of new doctors to keep pay high. Flood the market with docs and you better believe their compensation will decline.

Ignorance breeds fear, and I get it, you're afraid of globalization because it's a threat to your own interests. But the world grows smaller every day, better to adapt than to waste energy and emotion trying to maintain a untenable status quo. I laugh at things like ALPA and their naked self-interest. Like postal workers staging a protest at the internet. If it's not Norwegian there will be countless, relentless other contenders coming. Empty union rhetoric trying to bring back the 70's can't compete with economics.

Your best defense? Keep making yourself as marketable as possible so you have the flexibility of selecting the best-paid jobs out there on your own terms. Or, keep huddling behind protectionist government policies, pay those union dues, and pray your seniority number holds out until retirement. Your choice.

Oh, and if there's no pilot shortage, could you please ask the recruiters constantly spamming me with job offers to lay off? :mrgreen:
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Re: Norwegian Air

Post by altiplano »

I agree with some of what you're saying CI with regard to economics.

But IMO the issue to take with Norwegian is that they are operating in a loopholes at an unfair advantage to other airlines, while reaping the benefits of open skies and other agreements between the EU, US, Canada, etc. The Flag of Convenience Carrier phenomenon hasn't been considered in these deals and should be updated.

You need some of those "protectionist policies". You need a somewhat level playing field to compete on - world-wide complete deregulation and unabated cabotage would be a disaster and wouldn't serve to benefit most, but in particular developed, countries populations in terms of economics or service.
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florch
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Re: Norwegian Air

Post by florch »

complexintentions wrote: Thu Feb 21, 2019 3:29 am Sorry pianokeys, but you just seem a bit ignorant of how the industry works outside of Canada.

Training bonds are commonplace at all kinds of carriers, both inside and out of Canada, on all types of equipment. If you don't think the shit wages for the 1st four years at AC or the starting wages at WS/Encore aren't a form of bondage, then you're just deluding yourself. Either system is a way of recovering training costs. I've taken more than one WB DEC job and never had a bond because I had the type rating already...no type training cost to the employer.

Your understanding of how compensation is derived is overly simplistic ("Tims pays dick, doctors make lots" etc). Skill and education are one component, but supply and demand are far more important. That's why Tims pays more in (or used to) in Ft. Mac than it does in Toronto, it's why the College of Surgeons and Physicians artificially constrains the supply of new doctors to keep pay high. Flood the market with docs and you better believe their compensation will decline.

Ignorance breeds fear, and I get it, you're afraid of globalization because it's a threat to your own interests. But the world grows smaller every day, better to adapt than to waste energy and emotion trying to maintain a untenable status quo. I laugh at things like ALPA and their naked self-interest. Like postal workers staging a protest at the internet. If it's not Norwegian there will be countless, relentless other contenders coming. Empty union rhetoric trying to bring back the 70's can't compete with economics.

Your best defense? Keep making yourself as marketable as possible so you have the flexibility of selecting the best-paid jobs out there on your own terms. Or, keep huddling behind protectionist government policies, pay those union dues, and pray your seniority number holds out until retirement. Your choice.

Oh, and if there's no pilot shortage, could you please ask the recruiters constantly spamming me with job offers to lay off? :mrgreen:
+1. I'm not arguing with that guy anymore. It's like the guys that think we will need more pilots after duty regs change, so the company will want to pay them less.
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