Atlas Air 767

Topics related to accidents, incidents & over due aircraft should be placed in this forum.

Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore

ogc
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 317
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 11:52 am

Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by ogc »

telex wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:23 pm
Bede wrote: Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:12 pm This accident has me worried. Jump seater from other airline. Reminds me of fedex in the 80’s. I really hope that my fears are wrong.
The jump seater just got hired at a major (American?) and was supposed to start ground school shortly.
United. They gave him his wings and left his seat empty in the class.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Gino Under
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 833
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:06 pm

Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by Gino Under »

Looks like pilot induced loss of control.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Old fella
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2394
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 7:04 am
Location: I'm retired. I don't want to'I don't have to and you can't make me.

Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by Old fella »

Gino Under wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:23 am Looks like pilot induced loss of control.
Elaborate and the source?
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
telex
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 634
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:05 pm

Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by telex »

Take it for what it's worth...

"Got this info from my airlines unofficial forum. Unofficial of course .

The initial bobble is from turbulence at 6200’. When the FO called for flaps 1, the captain accidentally hit the toga button. Toga didn’t engage until after flaps were set to 1, which then brought engine power to full, and started the initial pitch of 10 degrees nose up. The FO was startled, and shoved the nose forward... The CVR is startling, and baffling. The CA was pulling so hard against the FO that he sheared the pins on the stick and at that point had no control. They were IMC at the time. When they broke out into VMC, the FO said oh schit and started to pull. That was the round out you see. I won’t get into anything more until everything comes out. The records, the CVR, and what happened in the flight deck is truly shocking. They hit a negative 4 G dive initialy on the FOs push. All you hear is stuff hitting the ceiling and at one point a loud thud. They think the thud may have been the JS hitting the ceiling and maybe not wearing the shoulder harness. Like I said, I won’t get into anything more about the background of how it all happened. This is the accident in a nutshell. The facts that will come out are shocking."
---------- ADS -----------
 
Liberalism itself as a religion where its tenets cannot be proven, but provides a sense of moral rectitude at no real cost.
User avatar
C-GGGQ
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2051
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 12:33 pm

Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by C-GGGQ »

Same being reported by wall street journal, business Insider etc. Just not in quite that graphic detail.
---------- ADS -----------
 
tbaylx
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1193
Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2004 6:30 pm

Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by tbaylx »

telex wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:52 am Take it for what it's worth...

"Got this info from my airlines unofficial forum. Unofficial of course .

The initial bobble is from turbulence at 6200’. When the FO called for flaps 1, the captain accidentally hit the toga button. Toga didn’t engage until after flaps were set to 1, which then brought engine power to full, and started the initial pitch of 10 degrees nose up. The FO was startled, and shoved the nose forward... The CVR is startling, and baffling. The CA was pulling so hard against the FO that he sheared the pins on the stick and at that point had no control. They were IMC at the time. When they broke out into VMC, the FO said oh schit and started to pull. That was the round out you see. I won’t get into anything more until everything comes out. The records, the CVR, and what happened in the flight deck is truly shocking. They hit a negative 4 G dive initialy on the FOs push. All you hear is stuff hitting the ceiling and at one point a loud thud. They think the thud may have been the JS hitting the ceiling and maybe not wearing the shoulder harness. Like I said, I won’t get into anything more about the background of how it all happened. This is the accident in a nutshell. The facts that will come out are shocking."
How does one accidentally hit the toga buttons going for flaps?
---------- ADS -----------
 
FL_CH
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 273
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 8:59 am
Location: Toronto

Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by FL_CH »

The switches do happen to be on the backside of the throttle levers on the 767:

Image
---------- ADS -----------
 
"Then from 1000 ft AGL until the final capture altitude, the A/C accelerates backwards up along the altitude profile with idle thrust"
ReserveTank
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 493
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:32 am

Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by ReserveTank »

Doesn't the 767 have a "Go Around" annunciation or something similar on the PFD?
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
C-GGGQ
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2051
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 12:33 pm

Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by C-GGGQ »

That seems like an awkward set up for the toga switch...
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
telex
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 634
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:05 pm

Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by telex »

ReserveTank wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:34 am Doesn't the 767 have a "Go Around" annunciation or something similar on the PFD?
GA will become active in pitch and roll. Annunciated on the Flight Mode Annunciator.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Liberalism itself as a religion where its tenets cannot be proven, but provides a sense of moral rectitude at no real cost.
ReserveTank
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 493
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:32 am

Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by ReserveTank »

telex wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:50 am
ReserveTank wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:34 am Doesn't the 767 have a "Go Around" annunciation or something similar on the PFD?
GA will become active in pitch and roll. Annunciated on the Flight Mode Annunciator.
It was probably in the heat of the moment for them, but always, always, always check the FMA is you want to know "what mama's doing." Of course it's 20/20 now.
---------- ADS -----------
 
GyvAir
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1804
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:09 pm

Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by GyvAir »

telex wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:52 am They hit a negative 4 G dive initialy on the FOs push. All you hear is stuff hitting the ceiling and at one point a loud thud.
Would 4G negative be possible to achieve, even instantaneously? A loaded 767 is a lot of mass to make change its velocity that quickly by diving, isn't it?
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Boreas
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 376
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:06 pm
Location: The haunted corners of familiar rooms

Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by Boreas »

GyvAir wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:45 pm
telex wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:52 am They hit a negative 4 G dive initialy on the FOs push. All you hear is stuff hitting the ceiling and at one point a loud thud.
Would 4G negative be possible to achieve, even instantaneously? A loaded 767 is a lot of mass to make change its velocity that quickly by diving, isn't it?
There is a pretty long arm between the 767 cockpit - where I presume the reading was recorded - and its lateral axis. The longer the arm, the higher the linear acceleration for a given angular acceleration about an axis.
---------- ADS -----------
 
GyvAir
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1804
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:09 pm

Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by GyvAir »

Boreas wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:52 pm
GyvAir wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:45 pm
telex wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:52 am They hit a negative 4 G dive initialy on the FOs push. All you hear is stuff hitting the ceiling and at one point a loud thud.
Would 4G negative be possible to achieve, even instantaneously? A loaded 767 is a lot of mass to make change its velocity that quickly by diving, isn't it?
There is a pretty long arm between the 767 cockpit - where I presume the reading was recorded - and its lateral axis. The longer the arm, the higher the linear acceleration for a given angular acceleration about an axis.
So, theoretical situation: Three g-meters, one in the cockpit, one on the spar and one in the tailcone, all reading simultaneously. At the inception of a sharp pushover and dive, there would be a high negative in the cockpit, a high positive in the tail and a moderate negative at the spar or lateral axis?
---------- ADS -----------
 
DanWEC
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2311
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:05 pm
Location: 404

Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by DanWEC »

There's a plethora of articles out about disputes and safety concerns at Atlas/Amazon. Apparently people there were dreading something like this happening.
Of course it's taking a back seat to the Max thing, but may be just as relevant if not more so, being in our own backyard.

I haven't been able to find anything about the experience level of the crew, anyone know?
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
telex
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 634
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:05 pm

Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by telex »

DanWEC wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:05 pm There's a plethora of articles out about disputes and safety concerns at Atlas/Amazon. Apparently people there were dreading something like this happening.
Of course it's taking a back seat to the Max thing, but may be just as relevant if not more so, being in our own backyard.

I haven't been able to find anything about the experience level of the crew, anyone know?
CA total 11 000 hours and 1250 on type.

FO total 5 000 hours and 520 on type.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Liberalism itself as a religion where its tenets cannot be proven, but provides a sense of moral rectitude at no real cost.
User avatar
Boreas
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 376
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:06 pm
Location: The haunted corners of familiar rooms

Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by Boreas »

GyvAir wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:52 pm
Boreas wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:52 pm
GyvAir wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:45 pm

Would 4G negative be possible to achieve, even instantaneously? A loaded 767 is a lot of mass to make change its velocity that quickly by diving, isn't it?
There is a pretty long arm between the 767 cockpit - where I presume the reading was recorded - and its lateral axis. The longer the arm, the higher the linear acceleration for a given angular acceleration about an axis.
So, theoretical situation: Three g-meters, one in the cockpit, one on the spar and one in the tailcone, all reading simultaneously. At the inception of a sharp pushover and dive, there would be a high negative in the cockpit, a high positive in the tail and a moderate negative at the spar or lateral axis?
Yes to 'high' negative in the cockpit and to 'high' positive in the tail. There wouldn't be a negative at the lateral axis at the inception of the push over - it would be close to 1g still.

If you're in the tail you'd hit the floor and if you're in the cockpit you'd hit the ceiling... hard!
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
MZUNGO
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 220
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 9:45 pm
Location: YVR

Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by MZUNGO »

telex wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:52 am The CA was pulling so hard against the FO that he sheared the pins on the stick and at that point had no control.
this is unlikely. the 767 has a cam type override which requires 25 pounds of force to disengage one column from the other. also the same thing at the tail.
if the FO was holding full forward, all it should take is 25lbs of force from the Captain to disengage the columns. then they both have control of one elevator. until the columns are brought to the same place again, then they lock back together.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Eric Janson
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1243
Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2007 10:44 am

Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by Eric Janson »

C-GGGQ wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:38 am That seems like an awkward set up for the toga switch...
Works very well - location makes it quite easy to push one of the switches when needed. Fingers on top of the thrust levers and you would hit the TOGA switch with your thumb.

A vast improvement on the 737 switches which are very poorly located imho.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Always fly a stable approach - it's the only stability you'll find in this business
User avatar
C-GGGQ
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2051
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 12:33 pm

Re: Atlas Air 767

Post by C-GGGQ »

Fair enough, just wondering how easy they are to accidentally bump vs a button on the side like you see in many.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “Accidents, Incidents & Overdue Aircraft”