Jazz or Sunwing ?

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daedalusx
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by daedalusx » Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:12 pm

DH8Pilot wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:53 pm
Jazz is a long way from being a bad company. For those saying "Jazz can suck it," I'd love to hear your aviation background. Evidently, your experience in the industry is pretty limited. Let me guess: 2 years instructing, 6 months 704, then straight to Jazz? You clearly don't know what shitty is.
Try 15 years both rotaries and fixed wing. Northern and southern 703/704/705 and Jazz is the only place I’ve seen my FOs financially starve.
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by Yycjetdriver » Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:25 pm

daedalusx wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:12 pm
DH8Pilot wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:53 pm
Jazz is a long way from being a bad company. For those saying "Jazz can suck it," I'd love to hear your aviation background. Evidently, your experience in the industry is pretty limited. Let me guess: 2 years instructing, 6 months 704, then straight to Jazz? You clearly don't know what shitty is.
Try 15 years both rotaries and fixed wing. Northern and southern 703/704/705 and Jazz is the only place I’ve seen my FOs financially starve.
+1
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by Kaykay » Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:47 pm

daedalusx wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:12 pm
DH8Pilot wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:53 pm
Jazz is a long way from being a bad company. For those saying "Jazz can suck it," I'd love to hear your aviation background. Evidently, your experience in the industry is pretty limited. Let me guess: 2 years instructing, 6 months 704, then straight to Jazz? You clearly don't know what shitty is.
Try 15 years both rotaries and fixed wing. Northern and southern 703/704/705 and Jazz is the only place I’ve seen my FOs financially starve.
Every 703/704 I’ve been at over the years had my FOs not only financially starving but starving in other ways as well. Respectfully, it appears you’re being bitter and nothing more. Anyone could say negative things about any operation. Maybe Jazz works for some people, doesn’t mean it will for you or I, but many seem to be fine there.
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by bearitus » Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:38 pm

As an FO at Jazz I can say the only negative thing is that I cant pay my bills. Thankfully I got a big line of credit from a previous career.
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by goingnowherefast » Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:42 pm

That's pretty disturbing. A PROFESSIONAL airline pilot at a leading 705 regional needs to go into debt to pay the bills. No wonder somebody jumped ship to Sunwing after a few months.
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by bearitus » Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:48 pm

Take home net pay for Jazz FOs especially on reserve is around $2000 a month. There is an oversupply of FOs on reserve so we rarely get called to fly and basically make no perdiems or overtime pay. When you factor in the average cost of rent for a one bedroom condo in YYZ or YVR being $2000 a month (not including utilities) there isn't much left especially if you have a family.
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by GhostRider6 » Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:11 pm

Don’t get me wrong... I’m not drinking the “ jazz coolaid”

I’ve see my colleagues paycheques at Jazz and I made more as rampie/ C206 driver. ( with 500TT) The people I know at jazz are in the 3000- 5000 hour realm.. obviously there’s a draw for them to come to Jazz.

I / others disagree on how the new agreement went.. 2 weeks to decide 17 years.. the writing is one that wall..

However, all of this aside,you signed up to do a job and gave a company your word . Don’t join a company with the intention to jump ship..either stay for a year + and turn down SWG .. or don’t take the effing job and take your chances at Sunwing. Doing this screws the pilot group more than we already are and gives companies the ammo they need for things like... bonds!
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by Kosiw » Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:27 pm

History has shown, every pilot group no matter what association or union or company, has always "effed" over those that come behind them. There is no solidarity in this industry...

Best advise I ever heard was to run your career like a business, cause nobody else is looking out for you and yes I am a cynic :|
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by rudder » Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:52 am

The Jazz system is set up to accomplish 2 goals:

- overpay new hire candidates that are under qualified for the job of Part 705 First Officer

- underpay new hire candidates that are over qualified for the job of Part 705 First Officer

That may seem like a contradiction in terms but in practice it allows Jazz to hire a significant number of low time First Officers who will have to work at the low pay rates for several years until qualified and competent to pass an upgrade, and it forces qualified pilots to bid the upgrade ASAP to earn a respectable professional pilot wage.

The result of this system is that it is possible for a second year Jazz pilot with the required licence to upgrade and with consistent overtime of 2-3 days per month of overtime make $100,000. Same financial opportunity is available at SWG for a new hire First Officer who picks up overtime. A SWG First Officer must meet very stringent experience requirements for upgrade.

If it was a time of low pilot attrition and slow upgrade progress, Jazz would have a difficult time attracting any new hire pilots with experience. Instead, with record attrition to AC and elsewhere the upgrade window is 12-24 months. That will be the case for the next couple of years but will not continue forever. The Jazz fleet is forecast to shrink and AC hiring rates will taper off after 2020.

Meanwhile SWG has fairly early opportunities for upgrade due to pilot roster expansion but limited attrition rates.
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by munzil » Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:50 am

bearitus wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:48 pm
Take home net pay for Jazz FOs especially on reserve is around $2000 a month. There is an oversupply of FOs on reserve so we rarely get called to fly and basically make no perdiems or overtime pay. When you factor in the average cost of rent for a one bedroom condo in YYZ or YVR being $2000 a month (not including utilities) there isn't much left especially if you have a family.
The way I see it is that a take home pay of $2000 a month is just below minimum wage in ontario. http://www.calculconversion.com/minimum ... lator.html

This is nothing short of criminal and if pilots are leaving Jazz just after starting, then this is a way of market forces showing them that they need to change.
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by goingnowherefast » Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:19 am

munzil wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:50 am
...if pilots are leaving Jazz just after starting, then this is a way of market forces showing them that they need to change.
THIS!!!

If it were a Ma and Pa shop with a 206 and a King Air that offers decent pay and schedule, then yes, I'd agree jumping ship early is bad. That IS why bonds exist.

However Jazz is a large company with 1500? pilots. Surely management understands and accept that with crap pay, people are gong to leave for better opportunities. Hell, 1st year FOs can't afford to live on the salary. Do they really expect pilots to stay when another company is offering a salary they can live on?
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by Yycjetdriver » Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:48 am

When a company forces or pressures an employee group into the concessions (a/b scale contract) then also a ultra long term under paid contract, that company surrenders all ability to complain about people leaving.
Probably why it’s the Jazz koolaid drinkers doing the complaining and not even the company themselves.
At the end of the day the company probably doesn’t even give a sh*t, they figure the turn over is inevitable as they’ve taken away the career benefits and replaced them with stepping stone type benefits. Obviously it’s much more cost effective this way and the constant departure of people you’ve invested in is just part of the cost in doing business.
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by 47north » Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:05 pm

Yycjetdriver wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:48 am
When a company forces or pressures an employee group into the concessions (a/b scale contract) then also a ultra long term under paid contract, that company surrenders all ability to complain about people leaving.
Probably why it’s the Jazz koolaid drinkers doing the complaining and not even the company themselves.
At the end of the day the company probably doesn’t even give a sh*t, they figure the turn over is inevitable as they’ve taken away the career benefits and replaced them with stepping stone type benefits. Obviously it’s much more cost effective this way and the constant departure of people you’ve invested in is just part of the cost in doing business.
You are largely correct. This is the system that AC has put in place for the Express carriers by playing them off against each other. Since the training costs are a pass through to AC, the cost of constant turn over is on them. Not ideal is you ask me, but I'm sure the bean counters at AC have done the math and figure they will save overall.

Jazz knows the bottom of the list will continue to turn over indefinitely. With a constant turnover, more pilots never make it to the top pay scales. That is just part of the business now.
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by mbav8r » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:19 pm

munzil wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:50 am
bearitus wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:48 pm
Take home net pay for Jazz FOs especially on reserve is around $2000 a month. There is an oversupply of FOs on reserve so we rarely get called to fly and basically make no perdiems or overtime pay. When you factor in the average cost of rent for a one bedroom condo in YYZ or YVR being $2000 a month (not including utilities) there isn't much left especially if you have a family.
The way I see it is that a take home pay of $2000 a month is just below minimum wage in ontario. http://www.calculconversion.com/minimum ... lator.html

This is nothing short of criminal and if pilots are leaving Jazz just after starting, then this is a way of market forces showing them that they need to change.
A first year FO will make 40g plus which is 32% more than minimum wage, as well as pension and benefits. Your minimum wage calculator doesn’t take taxes off, you knew that right? Also, drama queen much, what’s criminal about paying what pilots are apparently willing to accept?
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by FOD_Vacuum » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:36 pm

mbav8r wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:19 pm
munzil wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:50 am
bearitus wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:48 pm
Take home net pay for Jazz FOs especially on reserve is around $2000 a month. There is an oversupply of FOs on reserve so we rarely get called to fly and basically make no perdiems or overtime pay. When you factor in the average cost of rent for a one bedroom condo in YYZ or YVR being $2000 a month (not including utilities) there isn't much left especially if you have a family.
The way I see it is that a take home pay of $2000 a month is just below minimum wage in ontario. http://www.calculconversion.com/minimum ... lator.html

This is nothing short of criminal and if pilots are leaving Jazz just after starting, then this is a way of market forces showing them that they need to change.
A first year FO will make 40g plus which is 32% more than minimum wage, as well as pension and benefits. Your minimum wage calculator doesn’t take taxes off, you knew that right? Also, drama queen much, what’s criminal about paying what pilots are apparently willing to accept?
Please stop trying to justify the disgustingly low pay at Jazz. We all know how little each pilot gets trickled into their chequing account every two weeks. The amount is insulting. And reality check: not once have I heard that a pilot was willing and happy to accept their wawcon; they put up with it and struggle financially. There’s a big difference. Unlike some pilots who have free rent in their parents basement, other actually have to try and survive off the pay.
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by bearitus » Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:04 am

FOD_Vacuum wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:36 pm
mbav8r wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:19 pm
munzil wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:50 am


The way I see it is that a take home pay of $2000 a month is just below minimum wage in ontario. http://www.calculconversion.com/minimum ... lator.html

This is nothing short of criminal and if pilots are leaving Jazz just after starting, then this is a way of market forces showing them that they need to change.
A first year FO will make 40g plus which is 32% more than minimum wage, as well as pension and benefits. Your minimum wage calculator doesn’t take taxes off, you knew that right? Also, drama queen much, what’s criminal about paying what pilots are apparently willing to accept?
Please stop trying to justify the disgustingly low pay at Jazz. We all know how little each pilot gets trickled into their chequing account every two weeks. The amount is insulting. And reality check: not once have I heard that a pilot was willing and happy to accept their wawcon; they put up with it and struggle financially. There’s a big difference. Unlike some pilots who have free rent in their parents basement, other actually have to try and survive off the pay.
Exactly, good post. I think 80% of the FOs myself included put up with the low pay because Jazz is the best shot to get into AC these days (especially with the new contract). Most see it as nothing but a short term financial inconvenience for better things in the future.
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by DH8Pilot » Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:23 am

I don't think anyone is trying to justify the FO pay. The majority of post-2015 hires would place correcting FO pay at the top of their priority list, but we have to be pragmatic. The pay is still in-line with other mainstream regionals. Again, why apply if you don't like the pay? Economies of supply and demand would eventually call for increased salaries if more people said no, but Jazz sure isn't having trouble filling ground schools.

As for those arguing that anyone who voted yes for MOS4 did so out of fear, all I can say is that it's extremely easy to hide behind the guise that voting no would've somehow helped the next generation of pilots. I personally find this mindset totally illogical. There was a high probability that voting no would've led to more work going to GGN or Sky, since these carriers were specifically designed to reduce the leverage of the AC/Jazz pilot groups. After what happened in 2010/2012/2015, I doubt Calin would've let us take the wheel now. What we would've then seen is a greater proportion of pilots going to GGN and Sky in the future, especially post-2025. Please explain to me how this would've helped the next generation of pilots? Don't get me wrong, I do think there were valid reasons for people to vote no. If you were willing to take the risk, then that's fine. However, don't act like you're all somehow the saviours of the industry by voting no, as you just as easily could've fucked over the next generation of pilots too.
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by mbav8r » Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:12 am

FOD_Vacuum wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:36 pm
mbav8r wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:19 pm
munzil wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:50 am


The way I see it is that a take home pay of $2000 a month is just below minimum wage in ontario. http://www.calculconversion.com/minimum ... lator.html

This is nothing short of criminal and if pilots are leaving Jazz just after starting, then this is a way of market forces showing them that they need to change.
A first year FO will make 40g plus which is 32% more than minimum wage, as well as pension and benefits. Your minimum wage calculator doesn’t take taxes off, you knew that right? Also, drama queen much, what’s criminal about paying what pilots are apparently willing to accept?
Please stop trying to justify the disgustingly low pay at Jazz. We all know how little each pilot gets trickled into their chequing account every two weeks. The amount is insulting. And reality check: not once have I heard that a pilot was willing and happy to accept their wawcon; they put up with it and struggle financially. There’s a big difference. Unlike some pilots who have free rent in their parents basement, other actually have to try and survive off the pay.
I’m not justifying anything, you are! I was simple correcting a false post about the wages being below minimum wage.
Why do they put up with it? Fact is, the pay is what it is because the pilots ACCEPT it by taking the fn job.
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by mbav8r » Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:19 am

bearitus wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:04 am
FOD_Vacuum wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:36 pm
mbav8r wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:19 pm

A first year FO will make 40g plus which is 32% more than minimum wage, as well as pension and benefits. Your minimum wage calculator doesn’t take taxes off, you knew that right? Also, drama queen much, what’s criminal about paying what pilots are apparently willing to accept?
Please stop trying to justify the disgustingly low pay at Jazz. We all know how little each pilot gets trickled into their chequing account every two weeks. The amount is insulting. And reality check: not once have I heard that a pilot was willing and happy to accept their wawcon; they put up with it and struggle financially. There’s a big difference. Unlike some pilots who have free rent in their parents basement, other actually have to try and survive off the pay.
Exactly, good post. I think 80% of the FOs myself included put up with the low pay because Jazz is the best shot to get into AC these days (especially with the new contract). Most see it as nothing but a short term financial inconvenience for better things in the future.
Apparently there is a monetary value to a shot at AC, it’s the exact amount that makes you willing to ACCEPT the “disgustingly low pay” at Jazz.
You’re a hypocrite, “I accept it because it gives me a shot at a better paying job”, who exactly is screwing over the next generation of pilots, the ones who protected what they had or the ones who take the crap pay to better their personal future? Ponder that for a bit.
Have you taken responsibility for your actions or is it still someone else’s fault for your shitty pay cheque?
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by C-GGGQ » Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:28 am

Show me where else to go then? The option is this, or no job. It's not an option
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by DH8Pilot » Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:51 am

Well, there's literally five job ads being posted every day now, so I'm not really sure what your issue is.
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by C-GGGQ » Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:58 am

Issue is they all pay low. So it's not like you turn down Jazz cause Encore is 55k to start
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by munzil » Thu Mar 28, 2019 8:10 am

mbav8r wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:12 am
FOD_Vacuum wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:36 pm
mbav8r wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:19 pm

A first year FO will make 40g plus which is 32% more than minimum wage, as well as pension and benefits. Your minimum wage calculator doesn’t take taxes off, you knew that right? Also, drama queen much, what’s criminal about paying what pilots are apparently willing to accept?
Please stop trying to justify the disgustingly low pay at Jazz. We all know how little each pilot gets trickled into their chequing account every two weeks. The amount is insulting. And reality check: not once have I heard that a pilot was willing and happy to accept their wawcon; they put up with it and struggle financially. There’s a big difference. Unlike some pilots who have free rent in their parents basement, other actually have to try and survive off the pay.
I’m not justifying anything, you are! I was simple correcting a false post about the wages being below minimum wage.
Why do they put up with it? Fact is, the pay is what it is because the pilots ACCEPT it by taking the fn job.
Mbv8r, under or just over minimum wage, justifying this type of wage makes you part of the problem and not the solution.

I have been in aviation for more than 25 years and it frankly doesn't affect me at all. Unlike you it seems, I care about the new hires and the state of the industry. They also have the chance of a much faster rate of movement than we did back when. I still care and think it is atrocious what they get paid especially compared to other similar companies around the world and with the cost of living here.

They are been taken advantage of in a position with high debt and desperate for income and it is wrong . No one knows exactly how much they made going to get paid here because of overtime, possible per diems that can make the difference between losing money or breaking even.

Your lack of empathy for your fellow pilots is just sad.

Saying that, for every new pilot that leaves Jazz because they just can't survive, hopefully this will have a positive net effect.
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by Diadem » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:15 am

DH8Pilot wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:23 am
There was a high probability that voting no would've led to more work going to GGN or Sky, since these carriers were specifically designed to reduce the leverage of the AC/Jazz pilot groups...Please explain to me how this would've helped the next generation of pilots?
Sky pays substantially more than Jazz, and GGN was so unreliable, with such terrible publicity, that AC was going to drop them sooner or later anyway. If the work had gone to Sky, tons of Jazz pilots would have moved over to make $8 more per hour. Jazz pilots signed on to be the lowest-paid regional pilots in the country for the next 16 years, and you think that's helping the next generation?
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Re: Jazz or Sunwing ?

Post by rudder » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:18 am

Diadem wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:15 am
Jazz pilots signed on to be the lowest-paid regional pilots in the country for the next 16 years, and you think that's helping the next generation?
AC pilots are the lowest paid mainline pilots in North America with by far the lowest year 1-4 non CA pay.

What are your thoughts on that?
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