Hanging your hat at Jazz?

[TheSocialChameleon]

Just curious if you’re under the age of 35 and have decided to make your career at Jazz. What is your reasoning if you decided to stay?

Note: I haven’t applied to AC yet. The reason being is I don’t feel like starting at the bottom again for schedule. I also find it ridiculous to take a 4 year pay cut right at the prime of my personal and professional life. Even the increase in year 5 is still low when you look at lost earnings averaged over the last 4 years. I always hear how the training is subpar to Jazz. No interest to fly long haul as it takes a toll on your health. Plus I’d rather be overseas with my own family rather than with crew on a short layover. Finally, not worried about job security, no company is really safe anyways. Some of the biggest companies you never thought would go bust went bust. What matters most is the market value of your skills.

AC is a good company for many people. Maybe just not for me and my vision for overall success in career, relationships, health, wealth.

What are your thoughts about staying at Jazz with CA pay?

[DanWEC]

Not to be rude, but why do you need anyone's thoughts? I thought you were a paid aviation career mentor?

[TheSocialChameleon]

Good one! But it doesn’t mean I know everything. I’m constantly learning.

[mixturerich]

To each their own. Do you want to do lots of short legs, or a just a few really long legs? Lots of takeoffs and landings, or more time in cruise? You will be jet lagged more doing long haul, but then again you get paid more. Don’t forget, regional flying can be pretty fatiguing too. It’s the nature of the business either way.

That being said, many people have a family, are starting one, or are planning one, so the decision is not so black and white.

[cheeky cough]

Demographics at AC would be the best reason. A lot of retirements.
Many New aircraft coming to AC.
I have worked at a tier 3 turboprop operator,Jazz and a defunct low cost operator ,prior to AC.
AC has numerous opportunities in training, management, union involvement etc., which give satisfaction
outside of line flying. When you finally start making good money and have control over your schedule, it is pretty sweet.
Obviously we are still underpaid relative to most countries, but hopefully the border down south opens up and they will be forced to raise wages in Canada.
I was once told by a wise Jazz Captain that never think your employer and coworkers are your family , and the choice YOU make about your career is the right one.

[KenoraPilot]

I'm a Jazz lifer

Its all about lifestyle & Alberta. Lots of my opinions are on other forums, but Jazz is a great place to hang ones hat. Lots of positives, a few negatives all in all good good

[proper]

JFL
Jazz for life... By choice.

Best working conditions and benefits in the country.

Pay will never be 737/320.
And despite driving for that, by adapting your life choices a little (used cars, smaller house, just being smart with your money) you can have a quality of life better than most AC pilots. Make the system work for you.
We all assume to live to be 85, I for one want the best quality of life for my family along the way....not at the end.

Good luck with your choices, it's not an easy one.

[Bajan Pilot]

I joined Jazz at age 36 and never looked back. Had the opportunity to go to AC but never took it and no regrets with that decision. Best training to be had from a great bunch of guys & gals, mind you I'm sure my instructors went home and had a stiff drink after my training sessions

Now retired almost 5 years and am really enjoying life. Trust me, you will not regret your decision if you decide to make the jump.

[Outlaw58]

Still on the fence because I have not been at Jazz long.

I am considering AC because eventually, AC would yield better wages and more options. That being said, I am really enjoying Jazz at the moment and when decision time comes, it will be a hard choice.

58

[Yycjetdriver]

I joined Jazz at age 36 and never looked back. Had the opportunity to go to AC but never took it and no regrets with that decision. Best training to be had from a great bunch of guys & gals, mind you I'm sure my instructors went home and had a stiff drink after my training sessions

Now retired almost 5 years and am really enjoying life. Trust me, you will not regret your decision if you decide to make the jump.

Congrats on retirement.
However Jazz as a career destination will be significantly different for any person joining now or even in the past years since the implementation of the B scale. Compared to the Jazz you experienced and appreciated. The new current Jazz might as well be a completely different company, (I know the benefits are soooooooo good ) the Jazz you hung your hat with is now much the same as any of the other scuzzy regionals in Canada.

[skypirate88]

At one point I planned to hang my hat at Jazz. I was a YYZ based Q captain near the bottom of the list. After about 1.5 years sitting in the hiring process with AC I had given up on going and stopped worrying about it.

Then to my surprise I got an interview invite and eventually a course offer. Taking that job has been the best career choice I've made in my 10+ years flying.

16 days cap on the narrow body fleet has me working no more than I was at Jazz and my take-home each month is equal to what I was taking in as a reserve captain at Jazz. I get to do regional hops that I enjoyed with Jazz, but also get a large variety of longer days.

Don't get me wrong, Jazz is a great place to work and I am very thankful to have had a chance to fly there, but if given the chance to go to AC it's a pretty easy choice to make (for anyone under about 35).

[mbav8r]

I joined Jazz at age 36 and never looked back. Had the opportunity to go to AC but never took it and no regrets with that decision. Best training to be had from a great bunch of guys & gals, mind you I'm sure my instructors went home and had a stiff drink after my training sessions

Now retired almost 5 years and am really enjoying life. Trust me, you will not regret your decision if you decide to make the jump.

Congrats on retirement.
However Jazz as a career destination will be significantly different for any person joining now or even in the past years since the implementation of the B scale. Compared to the Jazz you experienced and appreciated. The new current Jazz might as well be a completely different company, (I know the benefits are soooooooo good ) the Jazz you hung your hat with is now much the same as any of the other scuzzy regionals in Canada.

Your disdain for Jazz notwithstanding, you’re off base. There was a B scale, it’s gone, replaced with a pay scale that has lower pay the first four years and catches up to the old scale year five, also a YOS table for Captain pay. Unlike how WJ used to be, you know how after 10 years in the right seat, you slid over to year one Captain pay, we now give some credit for time spent in the right seat. A compromise of sorts because shit companies like Encore or SR don’t offer that, where we used to have one for one, had to adapt.
The only other item that new pilots lack is the old DB pension, they do have a fairly good DC plan that has the company eventually contributing 8% of salary vs 6% of employee contribution.
Everything else is exactly the same, combine that with quick upgrades, it’s definitely still a place to hang your hat. The recent bid had a pilot still in initial training awarded left seat, obviously not the norm but with new hires coming in without an ATPL, if you have one you can skip the queue. Possible that we may be looking for DEC in the next year.
Does any other regional airline anywhere in the world have a top Captain rate of 186.00?
Or FO of 114.00?
Yycjetdriver, I’m fairly sure you’re WJ, if so, you have no room to criticize Jazz.
Let’s look at all the WJ pilots have done for the industry, 55/hr for 737 Captain, Grooming, No pension, Encore, Swoop(did you do enough to stop it?)
We all share the blame for this mess!

[fish4life]

I joined Jazz at age 36 and never looked back. Had the opportunity to go to AC but never took it and no regrets with that decision. Best training to be had from a great bunch of guys & gals, mind you I'm sure my instructors went home and had a stiff drink after my training sessions

Now retired almost 5 years and am really enjoying life. Trust me, you will not regret your decision if you decide to make the jump.

Congrats on retirement.
However Jazz as a career destination will be significantly different for any person joining now or even in the past years since the implementation of the B scale. Compared to the Jazz you experienced and appreciated. The new current Jazz might as well be a completely different company, (I know the benefits are soooooooo good ) the Jazz you hung your hat with is now much the same as any of the other scuzzy regionals in Canada.

Your disdain for Jazz notwithstanding, you’re off base. There was a B scale, it’s gone, replaced with a pay scale that has lower pay the first four years and catches up to the old scale year five, also a YOS table for Captain pay. Unlike how WJ used to be, you know how after 10 years in the right seat, you slid over to year one Captain pay, we now give some credit for time spent in the right seat. A compromise of sorts because shit companies like Encore or SR don’t offer that, where we used to have one for one, had to adapt.
The only other item that new pilots lack is the old DB pension, they do have a fairly good DC plan that has the company eventually contributing 8% of salary vs 6% of employee contribution.
Everything else is exactly the same, combine that with quick upgrades, it’s definitely still a place to hang your hat. The recent bid had a pilot still in initial training awarded left seat, obviously not the norm but with new hires coming in without an ATPL, if you have one you can skip the queue. Possible that we may be looking for DEC in the next year.
Does any other regional airline anywhere in the world have a top Captain rate of 186.00?
Or FO of 114.00?
Yycjetdriver, I’m fairly sure you’re WJ, if so, you have no room to criticize Jazz.
Let’s look at all the WJ pilots have done for the industry, 55/hr for 737 Captain, Grooming, No pension, Encore, Swoop(did you do enough to stop it?)
We all share the blame for this mess!

Picking pay rates from 2035 is hardly a comparison because no one is ridiculous enough to sign a contract that long

[KenoraPilot]

Congrats on retirement.
However Jazz as a career destination will be significantly different for any person joining now or even in the past years since the implementation of the B scale. Compared to the Jazz you experienced and appreciated. The new current Jazz might as well be a completely different company, (I know the benefits are soooooooo good ) the Jazz you hung your hat with is now much the same as any of the other scuzzy regionals in Canada.

Your disdain for Jazz notwithstanding, you’re off base. There was a B scale, it’s gone, replaced with a pay scale that has lower pay the first four years and catches up to the old scale year five, also a YOS table for Captain pay. Unlike how WJ used to be, you know how after 10 years in the right seat, you slid over to year one Captain pay, we now give some credit for time spent in the right seat. A compromise of sorts because shit companies like Encore or SR don’t offer that, where we used to have one for one, had to adapt.
The only other item that new pilots lack is the old DB pension, they do have a fairly good DC plan that has the company eventually contributing 8% of salary vs 6% of employee contribution.
Everything else is exactly the same, combine that with quick upgrades, it’s definitely still a place to hang your hat. The recent bid had a pilot still in initial training awarded left seat, obviously not the norm but with new hires coming in without an ATPL, if you have one you can skip the queue. Possible that we may be looking for DEC in the next year.
Does any other regional airline anywhere in the world have a top Captain rate of 186.00?
Or FO of 114.00?
Yycjetdriver, I’m fairly sure you’re WJ, if so, you have no room to criticize Jazz.
Let’s look at all the WJ pilots have done for the industry, 55/hr for 737 Captain, Grooming, No pension, Encore, Swoop(did you do enough to stop it?)
We all share the blame for this mess!

Picking pay rates from 2035 is hardly a comparison because no one is ridiculous enough to sign a contract that long

It's easy to say when you're not the one faced with it. 72% of Jazz pilots thought it was worth the risk. I sure remember when WJ pilots voted in some very questionable WACON for Encore pilots even before they became an airline. It easy to call us "ridiculous, stupid and crazy" and a host of other insulting terms when you were not faced with the decision and behind the guise of an anonymous web forum. (Sure you can arm chair quarter back whatever you want but until you're making the decision please leave the "ridiculous" terms at home). We all make decisions for our careers we try and make the best ones we can or ourselves and our families. Do they always work out, no. Are they always whats best for others, no? But at the end of the day I don't believe the Jazz pilots voted for this contract in order to ruin/destroy/set back/toss under the bus every other pilot at every other airline.

[mbav8r]

Congrats on retirement.
However Jazz as a career destination will be significantly different for any person joining now or even in the past years since the implementation of the B scale. Compared to the Jazz you experienced and appreciated. The new current Jazz might as well be a completely different company, (I know the benefits are soooooooo good ) the Jazz you hung your hat with is now much the same as any of the other scuzzy regionals in Canada.

Your disdain for Jazz notwithstanding, you’re off base. There was a B scale, it’s gone, replaced with a pay scale that has lower pay the first four years and catches up to the old scale year five, also a YOS table for Captain pay. Unlike how WJ used to be, you know how after 10 years in the right seat, you slid over to year one Captain pay, we now give some credit for time spent in the right seat. A compromise of sorts because shit companies like Encore or SR don’t offer that, where we used to have one for one, had to adapt.
The only other item that new pilots lack is the old DB pension, they do have a fairly good DC plan that has the company eventually contributing 8% of salary vs 6% of employee contribution.
Everything else is exactly the same, combine that with quick upgrades, it’s definitely still a place to hang your hat. The recent bid had a pilot still in initial training awarded left seat, obviously not the norm but with new hires coming in without an ATPL, if you have one you can skip the queue. Possible that we may be looking for DEC in the next year.
Does any other regional airline anywhere in the world have a top Captain rate of 186.00?
Or FO of 114.00?
Yycjetdriver, I’m fairly sure you’re WJ, if so, you have no room to criticize Jazz.
Let’s look at all the WJ pilots have done for the industry, 55/hr for 737 Captain, Grooming, No pension, Encore, Swoop(did you do enough to stop it?)
We all share the blame for this mess!

Picking pay rates from 2035 is hardly a comparison because no one is ridiculous enough to sign a contract that long

Ok, same question, any regional airline paying Captains 149.30 and FOs 93.28 five years from now?
Also, I didn’t just pick those rates, a pilot starting today will be making those wages at the end of the contract, ie; 17 years from now. Show me another regional airline with the same rates, you can’t.
I’d wager that even with normal collective bargaining and typical 4 year contracts negotiated four times over the same time frame, you won’t find one paying that much. We also have an opener that has binding arbitration in 2029, if we don’t keep pace with others, we can use this option.

[TheSocialChameleon]

Lifer sounds like a really bad thing
I don’t mind being a lifer at something I enjoy and that gives me a quality of life now in my prime.

[Rowdy]

28% (those that are post 2015 hires who plan to stick around) voted No. That is over 400 pilots! Sadly, there were about 600 that were new and wanted AC desperately and another 500 or so on the old scale that this would carry them straight through into retirement. Beautifully played by CHR and AC. If this shortage they keep telling us about really picks up steam, maybe we'll be able to push things further down the field in the next opener (this summer isn't it?) I'll remain optimistic.

Anyways.. back to the original question. I still think Jazz could still be a good place to stay for your career. Folk like KP etc that live in Alberta and don't want to do the commute thing. People that don't care to go overseas. Early 30 somethings with young kids that want the quality of life now, like myself.

Here are two very good reasons to stick around. We have a pretty significant retirement happening in the next two years (top 1/4 of the list at least). Quick movement of the seniority list in the bottom half. Mostly from attrition to AC, AT and overseas. I don't think you're going to see that kid of movement elsewhere. We all know that seniority in the airline world is everything! Ohh and theres lots of upcoming opportunities in the training, management and union should you choose to go that way too as a result of the movement.

At the end of the day, I chose to stay. I've got a little one and live where I want. Reasonable seniority. Ok pay(which will see a pretty good bump at year 6). Good benefits and I like the atmosphere. My schedule in the next two years will improve significantly. Although I currently can't complain as I tend to work maybe 6 sometimes 8 days a month (most work between 12-15 days). Our reserve and scheduling rules easily beat AC or Wj's. The benefits and some of the little nuggets in our contract are immensely helpful. Our managers are easy to deal with and theres very much a family vibe out west. Just the other day I bumped into the chief pilot at a tool store and just chatted like he was a good friend.

Pros and cons for everyone. To each their own. But I'm here to stay

[KenoraPilot]

28% (those that are post 2015 hires who plan to stick around) voted No. That is over 400 pilots! Sadly, there were about 600 that were new and wanted AC desperately and another 500 or so on the old scale that this would carry them straight through into retirement. Beautifully played by CHR and AC. If this shortage they keep telling us about really picks up steam, maybe we'll be able to push things further down the field in the next opener (this summer isn't it?) I'll remain optimistic.

Anyways.. back to the original question. I still think Jazz could still be a good place to stay for your career. Folk like KP etc that live in Alberta and don't want to do the commute thing. People that don't care to go overseas. Early 30 somethings with young kids that want the quality of life now, like myself.

Here are two very good reasons to stick around. We have a pretty significant retirement happening in the next two years (top 1/4 of the list at least). Quick movement of the seniority list in the bottom half. Mostly from attrition to AC, AT and overseas. I don't think you're going to see that kid of movement elsewhere. We all know that seniority in the airline world is everything! Ohh and theres lots of upcoming opportunities in the training, management and union should you choose to go that way too as a result of the movement.

At the end of the day, I chose to stay. I've got a little one and live where I want. Reasonable seniority. Ok pay(which will see a pretty good bump at year 6). Good benefits and I like the atmosphere. My schedule in the next two years will improve significantly. Although I currently can't complain as I tend to work maybe 6 sometimes 8 days a month (most work between 12-15 days). Our reserve and scheduling rules easily beat AC or Wj's. The benefits and some of the little nuggets in our contract are immensely helpful. Our managers are easy to deal with and theres very much a family vibe out west. Just the other day I bumped into the chief pilot at a tool store and just chatted like he was a good friend.

Pros and cons for everyone. To each their own. But I'm here to stay

Nailed it Rowdy, mid 30's with kids and living in Alberta.....no where else I'd rather be with all the things you just mentioned. Looking forward to the next couple years as seniority goes up and scheduling/vacation gets better and hopefully the contract openers are effective. Its easy to bash on Jazz, but its all about perspective and what you want out of it. I did my 4 years over seas flying and saw the world, now I just want to be close to home and my family and work with awesome people. It won't be for everyone, but for some of us its pretty good.

[C-GGGQ]

Now if they can just let Jazz kill Evas like GGN and set up an easy coast crew base they'd likely have another lifer here.

[Yieldermatik]

28% (those that are post 2015 hires who plan to stick around) voted No. That is over 400 pilots! Sadly, there were about 600 that were new and wanted AC desperately and another 500 or so on the old scale that this would carry them straight through into retirement. Beautifully played by CHR and AC. If this shortage they keep telling us about really picks up steam, maybe we'll be able to push things further down the field in the next opener (this summer isn't it?) I'll remain optimistic.

Anyways.. back to the original question. I still think Jazz could still be a good place to stay for your career. Folk like KP etc that live in Alberta and don't want to do the commute thing. People that don't care to go overseas. Early 30 somethings with young kids that want the quality of life now, like myself.

Here are two very good reasons to stick around. We have a pretty significant retirement happening in the next two years (top 1/4 of the list at least). Quick movement of the seniority list in the bottom half. Mostly from attrition to AC, AT and overseas. I don't think you're going to see that kid of movement elsewhere. We all know that seniority in the airline world is everything! Ohh and theres lots of upcoming opportunities in the training, management and union should you choose to go that way too as a result of the movement.

At the end of the day, I chose to stay. I've got a little one and live where I want. Reasonable seniority. Ok pay(which will see a pretty good bump at year 6). Good benefits and I like the atmosphere. My schedule in the next two years will improve significantly. Although I currently can't complain as I tend to work maybe 6 sometimes 8 days a month (most work between 12-15 days). Our reserve and scheduling rules easily beat AC or Wj's. The benefits and some of the little nuggets in our contract are immensely helpful. Our managers are easy to deal with and theres very much a family vibe out west. Just the other day I bumped into the chief pilot at a tool store and just chatted like he was a good friend.

Pros and cons for everyone. To each their own. But I'm here to stay

Refreshing perspective. Thanks man

[mbav8r]

Rowdy,
Just a correction, top 1/4 of the list retiring over the next 10 years, two years would be nice though.

[KenoraPilot]

Rowdy,
Just a correction, top 1/4 of the list retiring over the next 10 years, two years would be nice though.

We can dream lol

[Rowdy]

Depends on how many go all the way to 65!

[mbav8r]

Rowdy,
I’m not sure if you’re serious or not but, 2019 age 62 = 37, 2020 age 62 = 29, age 65 is 15 and 17 respectively, definitely not the top 1/4 of the list.
Over the next 10 years, age 62 totals approximately 503, age 65 totals approximately 461, anyone staying at Jazz will move up fairly quickly over the next 10 years, then it slows somewhat. Keeping in mind that the bottom of the list will move quicker with pilots moving to AC. Pilots sitting around the 800 number will generally move up 40-50 per year.

[KenoraPilot]

Rowdy,
I’m not sure if you’re serious or not but, 2019 age 62 = 37, 2020 age 62 = 29, age 65 is 15 and 17 respectively, definitely not the top 1/4 of the list.
Over the next 10 years, age 62 totals approximately 503, age 65 totals approximately 461, anyone staying at Jazz will move up fairly quickly over the next 10 years, then it slows somewhat. Keeping in mind that the bottom of the list will move quicker with pilots moving to AC. Pilots sitting around the 800 number will generally move up 40-50 per year.

Thanks for the numbers lol. I am in the 800's so thats a little light at the end of my decade long tunnel