737 max

Discuss topics relating to Air Canada.

Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog

Post Reply
FL320
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 356
Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:44 am

Re: 737 max

Post by FL320 »

Raymond Hall wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:26 pm
yycflyguy wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:21 am Raymond, I disagree with your "every turn thereafter resulted in a slip" comment. Boeing recommends that rudder is not used in normal flight as a properly working yaw damper will keep things coordinated with or without the autopilot on.

You saved me some typing J31.... I'd also like to point out that departing LHR we are encouraged to use the AP early as LHR is a noise sensitive/high traffic airport and guys were getting violated for noise abatement because they weren't exactly on the SID and there are noise sensors positioned everywhere there. There is a time and place for automation. It's one thing departing straight out of YEG or YYC and handbombing to cruise but high traffic volume TCA is one place to use it.
It is one thing to have Boeing "recommend" that one should not use the rudder to coordinate one's turns, and it is entirely another to keep your turns coordinated. Real pilots fly the airplane and fly the SID. They could allow the autopilot to fly the SID, but they could also use their own skills to execute the procedures and keep their skills honed. In my view, there is no excuse for slipping in a turn. Yaw damper or no yaw damper. Leave the autopilot for the lowest common denominator. The reason that we have had these recent accidents stems at least in part from the fact that the pilots operating these multi-million dollar machines don't recognize that, Fleet Canuck or Boeing 737 Max, it all comes back to one fundamental concept: needle, ball and airspeed.
Real pilots play flying solo in their little Cessna during the days OFF. Flying manually a complex SID in a busy airspace like LHR with 400 people on board; with all the unnecessary workload added on the PM is the perfect way to add more holes in the swiss cheese in my opinion (just for you own satisfaction).
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
telex
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 472
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:05 pm

Re: 737 max

Post by telex »

Raymond Hall wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:26 pm
yycflyguy wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:21 am Raymond, I disagree with your "every turn thereafter resulted in a slip" comment. Boeing recommends that rudder is not used in normal flight as a properly working yaw damper will keep things coordinated with or without the autopilot on.

You saved me some typing J31.... I'd also like to point out that departing LHR we are encouraged to use the AP early as LHR is a noise sensitive/high traffic airport and guys were getting violated for noise abatement because they weren't exactly on the SID and there are noise sensors positioned everywhere there. There is a time and place for automation. It's one thing departing straight out of YEG or YYC and handbombing to cruise but high traffic volume TCA is one place to use it.
It is one thing to have Boeing "recommend" that one should not use the rudder to coordinate one's turns, and it is entirely another to keep your turns coordinated. Real pilots fly the airplane and fly the SID. They could allow the autopilot to fly the SID, but they could also use their own skills to execute the procedures and keep their skills honed. In my view, there is no excuse for slipping in a turn. Yaw damper or no yaw damper. Leave the autopilot for the lowest common denominator. The reason that we have had these recent accidents stems at least in part from the fact that the pilots operating these multi-million dollar machines don't recognize that, Fleet Canuck or Boeing 737 Max, it all comes back to one fundamental concept: needle, ball and airspeed.
How on earth did you come to this conclusion given your credentials?
---------- ADS -----------
 
CZBBYYZPilot
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 71
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2016 6:20 am

Re: 737 max

Post by CZBBYYZPilot »

Yeah, once you get airborne, you smoothly release the rudder input you were using to keep straight on the runway. Then, no more rudder. At least on the Embraer and Airbus. Then you could guard the pedals till 10,000 ft if it makes you feel better or if you have an a-hole Captain who keeps telling you real pilots are supposed to keep their feet on the pedals and hand fly the SID 🤣😂. On the metro, it was another story. Yes, you needed to coordinate the turns. But not modern commercial jets with yaw dampers and roll spoilers, etc.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Hangry
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 211
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:05 am

Re: 737 max

Post by Hangry »

This guy is the reason why real airline types roll their eyes at the "aviation experts" on TV. Your thoughts are as antiquated as an NDB.
---------- ADS -----------
 
altiplano
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4221
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 2:24 pm

Re: 737 max

Post by altiplano »

Why would you place that expectation and workload on yourself and crew?

Maybe a crew on their 5th early european wake-up, having already lost 5-10 nights sleep in the previous few weeks, for their 10th Atlantic crossing of the month?
Maybe on an RNAV1 departure... requiring maximum 0.5nm deviation 95% of the time?
Not to mention the host of other things to contend with beyond just the aircraft path and fatigue... the non-standard transition - that gets busted all time, noise violation risk - again we're called on it all the time, high traffic density airspace threat, maybe a language threat, or unfamiliar airport...

Use the tools available! If ever there are times to use AP early... here it is... "Real Pilots" don't have to prove anything... manage the flight efficiently with the tools available and know when the time to hand bomb a departure is... and it isn't every time.

I don't know, I've been on 3 Boeings and have never had, to coordinate my turns... maybe I'm doing everything wrong?
---------- ADS -----------
 
yycflyguy
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2734
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 9:18 am

Re: 737 max

Post by yycflyguy »

Hangry wrote: Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:12 am This guy is the reason why real airline types roll their eyes at the "aviation experts" on TV. Your thoughts are as antiquated as an NDB.
It's also the reason why CRM is such an important element of evaluating pilots in today's FD. Aviation philosophy has evolved in the 10+ year since his retirement. Utilization of available levels of automation are expected in certain situations, like LHR. Departing straight outta YWG/YOW/YEG VFR conditions with no traffic? Fill yer boots. High volume, complicated SIDs in mountainous terrain at nighttime with CB activity? Not so much.

It all comes back to one fundamental concept: Pilot decision making and utilizing crew and automation appropriately.... but what do I know, I've never been asked to speak as an "aviation expert". :roll:
---------- ADS -----------
 
FL320
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 356
Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:44 am

Re: 737 max

Post by FL320 »

I am surprised your SOP doesn’t require the AP engagement at high density traffic airports and for RNAV SID departures.
---------- ADS -----------
 
BMLtech
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 129
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 4:37 pm

Re: 737 max

Post by BMLtech »

somebody better engage the AP because this thread is way off course..
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Daniel Cooper
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 286
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:38 am
Location: Unknown

Re: 737 max

Post by Daniel Cooper »

Everywhere they go is a high density airport with RNAV SID departures. You would never fly.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
complexintentions
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2133
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 3:49 pm
Location: of my pants is unknown.

Re: 737 max

Post by complexintentions »

There are RNAV SID's that are simple and ones that are complex. LHR is definitely one of the latter. Of course, the example cited was in the sim. But in real life? Better not screw up, it'll be hard to justify.

I am completely in agreement with maintaining handling skills. But a "real pilot" also has the experience to know when it's prudent to make maximum and proper use of the tools in his toolbox, (like, a zillion dollars worth of automation), and when is a more appropriate time to practise his hand-flying. Which, incidentally, increases the workload of the PM far more than himself. If you're gonna be a hand-hero with something to prove to yourself or me or whatever, at least brief the poor guy sitting next to you before you take off.

And I disagree that this topic relating to to decision-making and task prioritization is unrelated to the Max crashes. The Ethiopian crashed after ten minutes, not "seconds".
---------- ADS -----------
 
I’m still waiting for my white male privilege membership card. Must have gotten lost in the mail.
doiwannabeapilot
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 109
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:46 pm

Re: 737 max

Post by doiwannabeapilot »

I like to guard all the controls for the ENTIRE flight; never know when the autopilot could kick off. :D
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
JohnnyHotRocks
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1066
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:18 am

Re: 737 max

Post by JohnnyHotRocks »

Most copilots/cocaptains would stare at you wondering why you are riding the controls for 8hrs on autopilot. You do know that if the autopilot kicks of there will be an aural warning right? And likely an oral warning from the other pilot lol
---------- ADS -----------
 
J31
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1079
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2004 7:21 am

Re: 737 max

Post by J31 »

Boeing's fix for 737 MAX will take additional weeks.....

https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/01/politics ... index.html
---------- ADS -----------
 
Raymond Hall
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 598
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:45 am

Re: 737 max

Post by Raymond Hall »

Hangry wrote: Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:12 am This guy is the reason why real airline types roll their eyes at the "aviation experts" on TV. Your thoughts are as antiquated as an NDB.
Right. Apparently, in your view, so is flight safety. As I understand it, you are criticizing me for demonstrating competency in the use of hands and feet and maintaining control over needle, ball, airspeed, thrust and attitude.

But isn’t competency at the core of the issue here? If there ever was one thing I taught myself to do, it was to ensure that I was in control of the aircraft 100% of the time, even if that control was assisted by the use of automation. And to know how to disengage the automated systems when they did not perform as required.

To die by reason of overlooking basic principles of flight and to take 345 unfortunate victims to their death as well, while struggling to simply stop the aircraft from impacting the earth, doesn’t meet my expectation of competency.

So how does one maintain one’s competency in those critical factors of hands, feet, needle, ball, airspeed, thrust and attitude, if one continually cedes total control to the automatic processes at every instance? Especially if the automated systems override the controls even when the autopilot is not engaged?

It is an airplane that you are operating. It operates on the basis of some very, very basic principles, regardless of the automation available to assist its performance.

How many minutes per year do you actually fly? I say minutes, not hours, because with your suggestion, I’ll credit you with 30 seconds of control on the take-off roll, thirty seconds of climb-out before calling “Autopilot On” and two minutes of control inside the marker on approach, landing and roll-out, every second leg, perhaps six to ten legs per month. Three minutes of hands and feet, five times a month, 11 months a year. Total, 165 minutes.

Does that ensure competency? Less than three hours per year. The remaining time airborne is simply turning dials, programming the box and watching the airplane operate like a driverless car. Or sleeping in the bunk. Thousands of hours of time, of which less than 1% is actually "flying" the aircraft.

And you wonder why pilots have problems? First, understanding the reason for the aircraft’s behavior at time-sensitive, critical phases of flight, and second, taking the appropriate action to prevent the aircraft from committing hari kari (controlled flight into terrain).

Couple that lack of actual flying with pilots who have never flown a small aircraft—200-hour wonders like the F/O in the last accident, where all of his time was in either the simulator or the right seat of a $120 million aircraft, indeed, following Boeing’s recommended procedures—then look at the result. All the holes in the Swiss cheese line up.

Antiquated? What is antiquated about insisting on maintaining competency and maintaining control of the aircraft? I am still alive. Others, less antiquated, are not.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by Raymond Hall on Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:54 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Raymond Hall
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 598
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:45 am

Re: 737 max

Post by Raymond Hall »

Deleted. Duplicate Post.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
telex
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 472
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:05 pm

Re: 737 max

Post by telex »

Raymond Hall wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2019 11:30 pm
Hangry wrote: Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:12 am This guy is the reason why real airline types roll their eyes at the "aviation experts" on TV. Your thoughts are as antiquated as an NDB.
Right. Apparently, in your view, so is flight safety. As I understand it, you are criticizing me for demonstrating competency in the use of hands and feet and maintaining control over needle, ball, airspeed, thrust and attitude.

But isn’t competency at the core of the issue here? If there ever was one thing I taught myself to do, it was to ensure that I was in control of the aircraft 100% of the time, even if that control was assisted by the use of automation. And to know how to disengage the automated systems when they did not perform as required.

To die by reason of overlooking basic principles of flight and to take 345 unfortunate victims to their death as well, while struggling to simply stop the aircraft from impacting with the earth, doesn’t meet my expectation of competency.

So how does one maintain one’s competency in those critical factors of hands, feet, needle, ball, airspeed, thrust and attitude, if one continually cedes total control to the automatic processes at every instance? Especially if the automated systems override the controls even when the autopilot is not engaged?

It is an airplane that you are operating. It operates on the basis of some very, very basic principles, regardless of the automation available to assist its performance.

How many minutes per year do you actually fly? I say minutes, not hours, because with your suggestion, I’ll credit you with 30 seconds of control on the take-off roll, thirty seconds of climb-out before calling “Autopilot On” and two minutes of control inside the marker on approach, landing and roll-out, every second leg, perhaps six to ten legs per month. Three minutes of hands and feet, five times a month, 11 months a year. Total, 165 minutes.

Does that ensure competency? Less than three hours per year. The remaining time airborne is simply turning dials, programming the box and watching the airplane operate like a driverless car. Or sleeping in the bunk. Thousands of hours of time, of which less than 1% is actually "flying" the aircraft.

And you wonder why pilots have problems? First, recognizing the aircraft’s behavior at time-sensitive, critical phases of flight, and second, taking the appropriate action to prevent the aircraft from committing hari kari (controlled flight into terrain).

Couple that lack of actual flying with pilots who have never flown a small aircraft—200-hour wonders like the F/O in the last accident, where all of his time was in either the simulator or the right seat of a $120 million aircraft, indeed, following Boeing’s recommended procedures—then look at the result. All the holes in the Swiss cheese line up.

Antiquated? What is antiquated about insisting on maintaining competency and maintaining control of the aircraft?
Your statement to the effect of "real pilots hand fly the SID" is why you got shat upon from many.
---------- ADS -----------
 
ant_321
Rank 7
Rank 7
Posts: 589
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2010 8:43 pm

Re: 737 max

Post by ant_321 »

I’m still trying to figure out what you were doing with rudder pedals on a Boeing. I’ve even paid closer attention since reading your post and using no ruder all the turns stayed perfectly coordinated. One can only assume you spent your career skidding through every turn.
---------- ADS -----------
 
altiplano
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 4221
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 2:24 pm

Re: 737 max

Post by altiplano »

Your argument is full of fallacy and assumptions.

"Unless you do it like I did, you're not competent."

"You only fly for 30 seconds before engaging AP."

You're way out.

What I see people here saying, or at least what I am saying, pick your times appropriately. I often hand fly my climb out to RVSM limits, I often hand fly from base to landing... but I don't do it at every airport, every time without regard for weather, traffic, complexity of departure/arrival, and workload or fatigue levels... not to mention RNP1 sids/stars require FD and/or AP use... really they want you to use AP... RF segments and AR approaches require AP engagement.

I can imagine Raymond... looking out the window and calling for the after takeoff check as he's skidding through his turn and missing setting the transition... while the FO tries to set the new altitude and heading bug, execute the direct to in the box, and make a freq change... "I really got 'err under control, dunt I..."
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
AOW
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 464
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 2:23 pm

Re: 737 max

Post by AOW »

The simple answer is to fly an Airbus... you can leave your feet on the floor and your turns are still coordinated.

And there’s no after takeoff checklist, so you can’t miss what isn’t there!

And they are nice to hand fly, but have a brilliant autopilot and auto thrust system for the rest of the time when you don’t want to hand fly.
---------- ADS -----------
 
GRK2
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 156
Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2015 5:04 am

Re: 737 max

Post by GRK2 »

Manoeuvring the aircraft
using rudder will result in yaw and a secondary roll response – with
Flight path
Heading
Sideslip
Angle Fig 1: Rudder induced sideslip
According to Boeing the Primary uses for rudder input
are in crosswind operations, directional control on
takeoff or roll out and in the event of engine failure.


It is difficult to perceive sideslip and few
modern aircraft have true sideslip indicators.
In the instrument panels of older aircraft the
“ball” was an indicator of side force or acceleration rather than sideslip angle. Some
newer aircraft have electronic flight displays
with a slip/skid indication (“the brick”) but
these are still an indication of side force or
acceleration, not sideslip angle. As more
rudder is applied, more sideslip is generated
and a greater roll response will be induced.

Cmon Raymond, you appear to be a bright fellow. Listen to what the informed and more recently experienced pilots are saying. You seem to be a bit behind the times when it comes to how complicated SIDS and STARS are to flown in busy terminal areas. Hand flying has its place in many operations, but it has to be balanced between what is required by SOP's and when it's appropriate. I agree with the majority here that "real pilots" can still fly using all the features their machines have in all phases, but it takes a good one to know when to use those features properly and to do it with maximum safety and efficiency.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “Air Canada”