Training Bonds...

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pistonpumper
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Training Bonds...

Post by pistonpumper »

What is the market like on 703/704/705 training bonds with various aircraft? Entering these types of operators, what is an acceptable bond. Things are moving very quickly in the industry and a 2.5-3 year bond is a long, long time.
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Last edited by pistonpumper on Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
indieadventurer
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Re: Training Bonds...

Post by indieadventurer »

As far as 705 operators in Canada go I think Air Transat has a $30,000 bond prorated over 3 years.
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contactapproved
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Re: Training Bonds...

Post by contactapproved »

pistonpumper wrote: Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:52 pm What is the market like on <a href="tel:703/704/705">703/704/705</a> training bonds with various aircraft? I've heard of a training bond on a Saab 340 at 2.5 years, $25,000, which to me sounds absurd. Entering these types of operators, what is an acceptable bond. Things are moving very quickly in the industry and a 2.5 year bond is a long, long time.
In my earlier life I agreed to this bond, it’s no money up front and you will probably be trained that much worth if not more. Your initial sim will prob run for 12-14 days in Houston, followed by a 3-4 day sim trip there every 6 months. Was a good trip heading down there every time. Company covered pretty much all expenses except beer. I enjoyed my 2.5 years there a lot. It goes quick!
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valleyboy
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Re: Training Bonds...

Post by valleyboy »

Lets face it we all object to training bonds but because we are whores they were born. Unless you are putting money up front and it's your initial hire with a company the only reason you object is because of chasing metal. I can't fault companies for wanting a training bond under these circumstances.

This leads us into the next level. This is where a company wants to re-bond anytime you upgrade. This is the bottom of the barrel and in my mind bordering on illegal. Problem is no one fights this because it's usually not worth it in time and money and the biggest reason being black listed as a sh1t disturber and torpedoing your career. I would never re-up if this was company policy. Companies like this one usually can't wait to see the back of them anyway.

If it's a fair deal a cpl years is nothing and if it's close to your first job you likely aren't very marketable anyway. It's a job with positive cash flow and you are building time. Enjoy the first 5 years of your career. It will be the best time of your life.

PS always carry condoms (either gender)
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goleafsgo
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Re: Training Bonds...

Post by goleafsgo »

Can anyone confirm the Air Transat bond?
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sarfarosh
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Re: Training Bonds...

Post by sarfarosh »

Confirmed.
(Approx.) $ 30,000 pro rated. 3 years from your first revenue flight.
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digits_
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Re: Training Bonds...

Post by digits_ »

valleyboy wrote: Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:31 am Lets face it we all object to training bonds but because we are whores they were born. Unless you are putting money up front and it's your initial hire with a company the only reason you object is because of chasing metal. I can't fault companies for wanting a training bond under these circumstances.
Not at all. SMS fails where pilots are afraid to have to pay for their bond when they are let go due to being a troublemaker. A bond gives the company too much leverage over a pilot. It's one thing to get fired for standing up for yourself, but another to be fired and owe a company XX thousand dollars. And yes, if your read a few different bonds, if you get fired with cause, you usually have to pay the bond. And it is, unfortunately, pretty easy to find cause to fire a pilot.

In my opinion, bonds are a safety concern.
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Re: Training Bonds...

Post by Pacqing »

a pilot came on board recently and got a C11 course right away with no bond, was home less than 2 weeks and was gone to the regionals. Boy was he ever unsafe. (sarcastic last sentence)
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digits_
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Re: Training Bonds...

Post by digits_ »

Pacqing wrote: Sat Apr 06, 2019 4:20 pm a pilot came on board recently and got a C11 course right away with no bond, was home less than 2 weeks and was gone to the regionals. Boy was he ever unsafe. (sarcastic last sentence)
I don't dispute that happens, but I find the effect of pilots being hesitant to report unsafe practices due to the bond way worse than the effect that some people might leave or be assholes and leave right away.

After all, that is the ultimate weapon that pilots have to increase safety, and also wages: to leave, especially in the current economy. If you take that away, employers can get away with a lot.

Have you noticed that the "best" companies usually don't have bonds? Or at the very least realistic bonds: pro rated one year bonds. Any bond other than that is taking advantage of the pilot in my opinion. And even that bond shouldn't exist.
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C.W.E.
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Re: Training Bonds...

Post by C.W.E. »

Or at the very least realistic bonds: pro rated one year bonds. Any bond other than that is taking advantage of the pilot in my opinion. And even that bond shouldn't exist.
You obviously have not owned an aviation company and hired pilots.

A properly worded fair bond is insurance for a company to protect them from getting ripped off by pilots.
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digits_
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Re: Training Bonds...

Post by digits_ »

C.W.E. wrote: Sat Apr 06, 2019 4:40 pm A properly worded fair bond is insurance for a company to protect them from getting ripped off by pilots.
Sure, but a lot of them are not properly worded or fair.

How can you justify a 3 year bond for a rating that's only valid for what, a year?
Or 2 year bonds where you have to pay the full amount if you leave before 2 years, as some shady medevac companies (used to) do?
Or you sign a bond and then companies change your base?
Or you sign a bond for X years but the salary is only defined for 1 year?

The thing is, if during the duration of your bond the work conditions change, you're out of luck. Sure, you could fight a bond in court in those cases and argue that it is not what you initially agreed upon, but who is going to do that?

A fair bond, to me, would be:
- valid for 1 year with a progressive decrease in the bond amount per month
- define the salary progression during the bond
- a detailed description of work conditions
- if carrots are dangled, they should be in the bond (raises, bigger types, PIC time on empty legs, etc)
- void if the company expects pilots to break the COM / CARs
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Re: Training Bonds...

Post by DanWEC »

Out of curiosity, why does Transat have a training bond? Next to AC they have the best pay (Better than AC in some respects) and, by some measures, a better lifestyle.
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Re: Training Bonds...

Post by C.W.E. »

Sure, but a lot of them are not properly worded or fair.
Then don't sign it.
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Re: Training Bonds...

Post by digits_ »

C.W.E. wrote: Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:42 pm
Sure, but a lot of them are not properly worded or fair.
Then don't sign it.
Right. Because the majority of pilots like to delay their career progression a few years just to make a point.

Don't get me wrong, your solution is technically correct. Just unrealistic.
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Re: Training Bonds...

Post by 5x5 »

Idle Sunday morning curiosity, but I wonder how many pilot's lives/careers have been significantly damaged due to a bond and how many companies have been significantly impacted by shortages due to pilot's bailing very soon after starting? Not theoretically but actually. And actually damaged, not just inconvenienced. Sadly, we'll never know.
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Re: Training Bonds...

Post by KenoraPilot »

Voyageur Air 705 Bond is $15,000 for 1 year
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mmm..bacon
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Re: Training Bonds...

Post by mmm..bacon »

Far more odious, from my point of view, is the pay-for-training that *all* the major carriers expose their new hires to. I can kinda get my head around the starting salaries at the regionals, because it seems, of late, that the experience level required to get in the front door isn't really commensurate with high pay; once you get to a major airline though, you've probably got several years of experience, command time, etc.., and then it's what? $55k to start? For two or three years, until you've 'paid off' your training - and then you get a decent salary. Pay-for-training is all that is...
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Re: Training Bonds...

Post by C.W.E. »

Pilots are paid what they will accept, therefore it is their own choice who they work for.
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Re: Training Bonds...

Post by AuxBatOn »

C.W.E. wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 9:28 am Pilots are paid what they will accept, therefore it is their own choice who they work for.
Until reality sets in and one needs to put food on the table and can’t afford to wait for the salary one wants.
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Re: Training Bonds...

Post by goingnowherefast »

5x5 wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:46 am Idle Sunday morning curiosity, but I wonder how many pilot's lives/careers have been significantly damaged due to a bond and how many companies have been significantly impacted by shortages due to pilot's bailing very soon after starting? Not theoretically but actually. And actually damaged, not just inconvenienced. Sadly, we'll never know.
I know a pilot who was fired for refusing to sign a bond AFTER completing the training. In this case, he moved on to a much more reputable company and it worked out well for the poor guy. I can't say there was any long term damage to his personal life or career.
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