Training Bonds...

This forum has been developed to discuss aviation related topics.

Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog

pistonpumper
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:59 pm

Training Bonds...

Post by pistonpumper »

What is the market like on 703/704/705 training bonds with various aircraft? Entering these types of operators, what is an acceptable bond. Things are moving very quickly in the industry and a 2.5-3 year bond is a long, long time.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by pistonpumper on Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
indieadventurer
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 339
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:59 am

Re: Training Bonds...

Post by indieadventurer »

As far as 705 operators in Canada go I think Air Transat has a $30,000 bond prorated over 3 years.
---------- ADS -----------
 
contactapproved
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 48
Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2015 5:13 pm

Re: Training Bonds...

Post by contactapproved »

pistonpumper wrote: Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:52 pm What is the market like on <a href="tel:703/704/705">703/704/705</a> training bonds with various aircraft? I've heard of a training bond on a Saab 340 at 2.5 years, $25,000, which to me sounds absurd. Entering these types of operators, what is an acceptable bond. Things are moving very quickly in the industry and a 2.5 year bond is a long, long time.
In my earlier life I agreed to this bond, it’s no money up front and you will probably be trained that much worth if not more. Your initial sim will prob run for 12-14 days in Houston, followed by a 3-4 day sim trip there every 6 months. Was a good trip heading down there every time. Company covered pretty much all expenses except beer. I enjoyed my 2.5 years there a lot. It goes quick!
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
valleyboy
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 797
Joined: Tue May 03, 2016 4:05 am
Contact:

Re: Training Bonds...

Post by valleyboy »

Lets face it we all object to training bonds but because we are whores they were born. Unless you are putting money up front and it's your initial hire with a company the only reason you object is because of chasing metal. I can't fault companies for wanting a training bond under these circumstances.

This leads us into the next level. This is where a company wants to re-bond anytime you upgrade. This is the bottom of the barrel and in my mind bordering on illegal. Problem is no one fights this because it's usually not worth it in time and money and the biggest reason being black listed as a sh1t disturber and torpedoing your career. I would never re-up if this was company policy. Companies like this one usually can't wait to see the back of them anyway.

If it's a fair deal a cpl years is nothing and if it's close to your first job you likely aren't very marketable anyway. It's a job with positive cash flow and you are building time. Enjoy the first 5 years of your career. It will be the best time of your life.

PS always carry condoms (either gender)
---------- ADS -----------
 
Black air has no lift - extra fuel has no weight
http://www.blackair.ca
goleafsgo
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 294
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:13 pm

Re: Training Bonds...

Post by goleafsgo »

Can anyone confirm the Air Transat bond?
---------- ADS -----------
 
sarfarosh
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2006 9:57 pm
Contact:

Re: Training Bonds...

Post by sarfarosh »

.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by sarfarosh on Wed Mar 30, 2022 5:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
digits_
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5931
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Training Bonds...

Post by digits_ »

valleyboy wrote: Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:31 am Lets face it we all object to training bonds but because we are whores they were born. Unless you are putting money up front and it's your initial hire with a company the only reason you object is because of chasing metal. I can't fault companies for wanting a training bond under these circumstances.
Not at all. SMS fails where pilots are afraid to have to pay for their bond when they are let go due to being a troublemaker. A bond gives the company too much leverage over a pilot. It's one thing to get fired for standing up for yourself, but another to be fired and owe a company XX thousand dollars. And yes, if your read a few different bonds, if you get fired with cause, you usually have to pay the bond. And it is, unfortunately, pretty easy to find cause to fire a pilot.

In my opinion, bonds are a safety concern.
---------- ADS -----------
 
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
Pacqing
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 232
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:14 pm

Re: Training Bonds...

Post by Pacqing »

a pilot came on board recently and got a C11 course right away with no bond, was home less than 2 weeks and was gone to the regionals. Boy was he ever unsafe. (sarcastic last sentence)
---------- ADS -----------
 
digits_
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5931
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Training Bonds...

Post by digits_ »

Pacqing wrote: Sat Apr 06, 2019 4:20 pm a pilot came on board recently and got a C11 course right away with no bond, was home less than 2 weeks and was gone to the regionals. Boy was he ever unsafe. (sarcastic last sentence)
I don't dispute that happens, but I find the effect of pilots being hesitant to report unsafe practices due to the bond way worse than the effect that some people might leave or be assholes and leave right away.

After all, that is the ultimate weapon that pilots have to increase safety, and also wages: to leave, especially in the current economy. If you take that away, employers can get away with a lot.

Have you noticed that the "best" companies usually don't have bonds? Or at the very least realistic bonds: pro rated one year bonds. Any bond other than that is taking advantage of the pilot in my opinion. And even that bond shouldn't exist.
---------- ADS -----------
 
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
C.W.E.
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1262
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: Training Bonds...

Post by C.W.E. »

Or at the very least realistic bonds: pro rated one year bonds. Any bond other than that is taking advantage of the pilot in my opinion. And even that bond shouldn't exist.
You obviously have not owned an aviation company and hired pilots.

A properly worded fair bond is insurance for a company to protect them from getting ripped off by pilots.
---------- ADS -----------
 
digits_
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5931
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Training Bonds...

Post by digits_ »

C.W.E. wrote: Sat Apr 06, 2019 4:40 pm A properly worded fair bond is insurance for a company to protect them from getting ripped off by pilots.
Sure, but a lot of them are not properly worded or fair.

How can you justify a 3 year bond for a rating that's only valid for what, a year?
Or 2 year bonds where you have to pay the full amount if you leave before 2 years, as some shady medevac companies (used to) do?
Or you sign a bond and then companies change your base?
Or you sign a bond for X years but the salary is only defined for 1 year?

The thing is, if during the duration of your bond the work conditions change, you're out of luck. Sure, you could fight a bond in court in those cases and argue that it is not what you initially agreed upon, but who is going to do that?

A fair bond, to me, would be:
- valid for 1 year with a progressive decrease in the bond amount per month
- define the salary progression during the bond
- a detailed description of work conditions
- if carrots are dangled, they should be in the bond (raises, bigger types, PIC time on empty legs, etc)
- void if the company expects pilots to break the COM / CARs
---------- ADS -----------
 
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
DanWEC
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2312
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 1:05 pm
Location: 404

Re: Training Bonds...

Post by DanWEC »

Out of curiosity, why does Transat have a training bond? Next to AC they have the best pay (Better than AC in some respects) and, by some measures, a better lifestyle.
---------- ADS -----------
 
C.W.E.
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1262
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: Training Bonds...

Post by C.W.E. »

Sure, but a lot of them are not properly worded or fair.
Then don't sign it.
---------- ADS -----------
 
digits_
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5931
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Training Bonds...

Post by digits_ »

C.W.E. wrote: Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:42 pm
Sure, but a lot of them are not properly worded or fair.
Then don't sign it.
Right. Because the majority of pilots like to delay their career progression a few years just to make a point.

Don't get me wrong, your solution is technically correct. Just unrealistic.
---------- ADS -----------
 
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
User avatar
5x5
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1542
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 7:30 pm

Re: Training Bonds...

Post by 5x5 »

Idle Sunday morning curiosity, but I wonder how many pilot's lives/careers have been significantly damaged due to a bond and how many companies have been significantly impacted by shortages due to pilot's bailing very soon after starting? Not theoretically but actually. And actually damaged, not just inconvenienced. Sadly, we'll never know.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Being stupid around airplanes is a capital offence and nature is a hanging judge!

“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.”
Mark Twain
User avatar
KenoraPilot
Rank 8
Rank 8
Posts: 902
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 2:34 pm
Location: 'berta

Re: Training Bonds...

Post by KenoraPilot »

Voyageur Air 705 Bond is $15,000 for 1 year
---------- ADS -----------
 
mmm..bacon
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 383
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 7:19 pm

Re: Training Bonds...

Post by mmm..bacon »

Far more odious, from my point of view, is the pay-for-training that *all* the major carriers expose their new hires to. I can kinda get my head around the starting salaries at the regionals, because it seems, of late, that the experience level required to get in the front door isn't really commensurate with high pay; once you get to a major airline though, you've probably got several years of experience, command time, etc.., and then it's what? $55k to start? For two or three years, until you've 'paid off' your training - and then you get a decent salary. Pay-for-training is all that is...
---------- ADS -----------
 
Everything has an end, except a sausage, which has two!
C.W.E.
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1262
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:22 pm

Re: Training Bonds...

Post by C.W.E. »

Pilots are paid what they will accept, therefore it is their own choice who they work for.
---------- ADS -----------
 
AuxBatOn
Rank 11
Rank 11
Posts: 3283
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:13 pm
Location: North America, sometimes

Re: Training Bonds...

Post by AuxBatOn »

C.W.E. wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 9:28 am Pilots are paid what they will accept, therefore it is their own choice who they work for.
Until reality sets in and one needs to put food on the table and can’t afford to wait for the salary one wants.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Going for the deck at corner
goingnowherefast
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1947
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:24 am

Re: Training Bonds...

Post by goingnowherefast »

5x5 wrote: Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:46 am Idle Sunday morning curiosity, but I wonder how many pilot's lives/careers have been significantly damaged due to a bond and how many companies have been significantly impacted by shortages due to pilot's bailing very soon after starting? Not theoretically but actually. And actually damaged, not just inconvenienced. Sadly, we'll never know.
I know a pilot who was fired for refusing to sign a bond AFTER completing the training. In this case, he moved on to a much more reputable company and it worked out well for the poor guy. I can't say there was any long term damage to his personal life or career.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “General Comments”