Training Bonds...

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pistonpumper
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Training Bonds...

Post by pistonpumper » Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:52 pm

What is the market like on 703/704/705 training bonds with various aircraft? Entering these types of operators, what is an acceptable bond. Things are moving very quickly in the industry and a 2.5-3 year bond is a long, long time.
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Last edited by pistonpumper on Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

indieadventurer
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Re: Training Bonds...

Post by indieadventurer » Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:11 pm

As far as 705 operators in Canada go I think Air Transat has a $30,000 bond prorated over 3 years.
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contactapproved
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Re: Training Bonds...

Post by contactapproved » Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:26 pm

pistonpumper wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 1:52 pm
What is the market like on <a href="tel:703/704/705">703/704/705</a> training bonds with various aircraft? I've heard of a training bond on a Saab 340 at 2.5 years, $25,000, which to me sounds absurd. Entering these types of operators, what is an acceptable bond. Things are moving very quickly in the industry and a 2.5 year bond is a long, long time.
In my earlier life I agreed to this bond, it’s no money up front and you will probably be trained that much worth if not more. Your initial sim will prob run for 12-14 days in Houston, followed by a 3-4 day sim trip there every 6 months. Was a good trip heading down there every time. Company covered pretty much all expenses except beer. I enjoyed my 2.5 years there a lot. It goes quick!
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valleyboy
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Re: Training Bonds...

Post by valleyboy » Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:31 am

Lets face it we all object to training bonds but because we are whores they were born. Unless you are putting money up front and it's your initial hire with a company the only reason you object is because of chasing metal. I can't fault companies for wanting a training bond under these circumstances.

This leads us into the next level. This is where a company wants to re-bond anytime you upgrade. This is the bottom of the barrel and in my mind bordering on illegal. Problem is no one fights this because it's usually not worth it in time and money and the biggest reason being black listed as a sh1t disturber and torpedoing your career. I would never re-up if this was company policy. Companies like this one usually can't wait to see the back of them anyway.

If it's a fair deal a cpl years is nothing and if it's close to your first job you likely aren't very marketable anyway. It's a job with positive cash flow and you are building time. Enjoy the first 5 years of your career. It will be the best time of your life.

PS always carry condoms (either gender)
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goleafsgo
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Re: Training Bonds...

Post by goleafsgo » Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:46 am

Can anyone confirm the Air Transat bond?
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sarfarosh
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Re: Training Bonds...

Post by sarfarosh » Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:51 am

Confirmed.
(Approx.) $ 30,000 pro rated. 3 years from your first revenue flight.
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digits_
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Re: Training Bonds...

Post by digits_ » Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:51 pm

valleyboy wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:31 am
Lets face it we all object to training bonds but because we are whores they were born. Unless you are putting money up front and it's your initial hire with a company the only reason you object is because of chasing metal. I can't fault companies for wanting a training bond under these circumstances.
Not at all. SMS fails where pilots are afraid to have to pay for their bond when they are let go due to being a troublemaker. A bond gives the company too much leverage over a pilot. It's one thing to get fired for standing up for yourself, but another to be fired and owe a company XX thousand dollars. And yes, if your read a few different bonds, if you get fired with cause, you usually have to pay the bond. And it is, unfortunately, pretty easy to find cause to fire a pilot.

In my opinion, bonds are a safety concern.
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Pacqing
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Re: Training Bonds...

Post by Pacqing » Sat Apr 06, 2019 4:20 pm

a pilot came on board recently and got a C11 course right away with no bond, was home less than 2 weeks and was gone to the regionals. Boy was he ever unsafe. (sarcastic last sentence)
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digits_
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Re: Training Bonds...

Post by digits_ » Sat Apr 06, 2019 4:32 pm

Pacqing wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 4:20 pm
a pilot came on board recently and got a C11 course right away with no bond, was home less than 2 weeks and was gone to the regionals. Boy was he ever unsafe. (sarcastic last sentence)
I don't dispute that happens, but I find the effect of pilots being hesitant to report unsafe practices due to the bond way worse than the effect that some people might leave or be assholes and leave right away.

After all, that is the ultimate weapon that pilots have to increase safety, and also wages: to leave, especially in the current economy. If you take that away, employers can get away with a lot.

Have you noticed that the "best" companies usually don't have bonds? Or at the very least realistic bonds: pro rated one year bonds. Any bond other than that is taking advantage of the pilot in my opinion. And even that bond shouldn't exist.
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Re: Training Bonds...

Post by C.W.E. » Sat Apr 06, 2019 4:40 pm

Or at the very least realistic bonds: pro rated one year bonds. Any bond other than that is taking advantage of the pilot in my opinion. And even that bond shouldn't exist.
You obviously have not owned an aviation company and hired pilots.

A properly worded fair bond is insurance for a company to protect them from getting ripped off by pilots.
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Re: Training Bonds...

Post by digits_ » Sat Apr 06, 2019 5:06 pm

C.W.E. wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 4:40 pm
A properly worded fair bond is insurance for a company to protect them from getting ripped off by pilots.
Sure, but a lot of them are not properly worded or fair.

How can you justify a 3 year bond for a rating that's only valid for what, a year?
Or 2 year bonds where you have to pay the full amount if you leave before 2 years, as some shady medevac companies (used to) do?
Or you sign a bond and then companies change your base?
Or you sign a bond for X years but the salary is only defined for 1 year?

The thing is, if during the duration of your bond the work conditions change, you're out of luck. Sure, you could fight a bond in court in those cases and argue that it is not what you initially agreed upon, but who is going to do that?

A fair bond, to me, would be:
- valid for 1 year with a progressive decrease in the bond amount per month
- define the salary progression during the bond
- a detailed description of work conditions
- if carrots are dangled, they should be in the bond (raises, bigger types, PIC time on empty legs, etc)
- void if the company expects pilots to break the COM / CARs
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Re: Training Bonds...

Post by DanWEC » Sat Apr 06, 2019 5:10 pm

Out of curiosity, why does Transat have a training bond? Next to AC they have the best pay (Better than AC in some respects) and, by some measures, a better lifestyle.
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Re: Training Bonds...

Post by C.W.E. » Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:42 pm

Sure, but a lot of them are not properly worded or fair.
Then don't sign it.
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Re: Training Bonds...

Post by digits_ » Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:27 pm

C.W.E. wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:42 pm
Sure, but a lot of them are not properly worded or fair.
Then don't sign it.
Right. Because the majority of pilots like to delay their career progression a few years just to make a point.

Don't get me wrong, your solution is technically correct. Just unrealistic.
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Re: Training Bonds...

Post by 5x5 » Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:46 am

Idle Sunday morning curiosity, but I wonder how many pilot's lives/careers have been significantly damaged due to a bond and how many companies have been significantly impacted by shortages due to pilot's bailing very soon after starting? Not theoretically but actually. And actually damaged, not just inconvenienced. Sadly, we'll never know.
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Re: Training Bonds...

Post by KenoraPilot » Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:56 am

Voyageur Air 705 Bond is $15,000 for 1 year
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Re: Training Bonds...

Post by mmm..bacon » Sun Apr 07, 2019 9:19 am

Far more odious, from my point of view, is the pay-for-training that *all* the major carriers expose their new hires to. I can kinda get my head around the starting salaries at the regionals, because it seems, of late, that the experience level required to get in the front door isn't really commensurate with high pay; once you get to a major airline though, you've probably got several years of experience, command time, etc.., and then it's what? $55k to start? For two or three years, until you've 'paid off' your training - and then you get a decent salary. Pay-for-training is all that is...
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Re: Training Bonds...

Post by C.W.E. » Sun Apr 07, 2019 9:28 am

Pilots are paid what they will accept, therefore it is their own choice who they work for.
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Re: Training Bonds...

Post by AuxBatOn » Sun Apr 07, 2019 9:58 am

C.W.E. wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 9:28 am
Pilots are paid what they will accept, therefore it is their own choice who they work for.
Until reality sets in and one needs to put food on the table and can’t afford to wait for the salary one wants.
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Re: Training Bonds...

Post by goingnowherefast » Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:09 pm

5x5 wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:46 am
Idle Sunday morning curiosity, but I wonder how many pilot's lives/careers have been significantly damaged due to a bond and how many companies have been significantly impacted by shortages due to pilot's bailing very soon after starting? Not theoretically but actually. And actually damaged, not just inconvenienced. Sadly, we'll never know.
I know a pilot who was fired for refusing to sign a bond AFTER completing the training. In this case, he moved on to a much more reputable company and it worked out well for the poor guy. I can't say there was any long term damage to his personal life or career.
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Re: Training Bonds...

Post by iflyforpie » Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:09 pm

5x5 wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:46 am
Idle Sunday morning curiosity, but I wonder how many pilot's lives/careers have been significantly damaged due to a bond and how many companies have been significantly impacted by shortages due to pilot's bailing very soon after starting? Not theoretically but actually. And actually damaged, not just inconvenienced. Sadly, we'll never know.
I know one pilot who signed one and then blew their ride, and was on the hook for the bond plus a new IFR rating (back when a failed PPC would invalidate it). It put this person’s career back about 8 years because of the repercussions in combination with their personal situation.

I say 8 years, because in a weird twist of fate... they went back to work for the same company. A year later this company had an accident and they were out of a job... although I would hope without having to pay out a bond.

As far as bonds for companies feeling the crunch, it’s win-lose. Bonds will force retention but they will also drive away experienced applicants. Why sign a bond when you can go to a better company with no bond?

Companies need to look at better methods to attract and retain pilots. Like... you know, treating them well. Lots of pilots will hang their hats for a few years, get established financially, get some command time and have some fun before starting the slow slog up the seniority list in the majors, rather than looking at purely seniority number vs trying not to starve and die and jumping at the first chance to leave—even sideways to a better operator.
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Re: Training Bonds...

Post by digits_ » Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:55 pm

goingnowherefast wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 12:09 pm
5x5 wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 7:46 am
Idle Sunday morning curiosity, but I wonder how many pilot's lives/careers have been significantly damaged due to a bond and how many companies have been significantly impacted by shortages due to pilot's bailing very soon after starting? Not theoretically but actually. And actually damaged, not just inconvenienced. Sadly, we'll never know.
I know a pilot who was fired for refusing to sign a bond AFTER completing the training. In this case, he moved on to a much more reputable company and it worked out well for the poor guy. I can't say there was any long term damage to his personal life or career.
The irony is just mind boggling.

I witnessed that at a company as well. Company forgot to bond the pilot. Pilot completed the ppc training. Company tried to pressure pilot into retroactively signing the bond. Pilot pointed out he just received airline offer but wanted to stay with the company for a while. Company backed off.

In the end the pilot left after 10 months, which was longer than most bonded pilots lasted...
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Re: Training Bonds...

Post by rookiepilot » Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:06 pm

C.W.E. wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 9:28 am
Pilots are paid what they will accept, therefore it is their own choice who they work for.
Pilots or anyone else.

As someone else on another thread commented, life is made up of choices, and by making choices others won't make, one ends in a different place. Ie, From what I read on these forums, pilots can make an absolute killing simply by choosing to go overseas for a handful of years, and bank the whole shebang, for example.

Here is the choice I made, in a different career:

Long ago I was a top producer in my company, yet due to competition, I wasn't happy with my compensation. Because of this I decided it would never happen, and started my own company, in another province. No help, no money, no degree, no nothing. Everyone laughed at me.

After being profitable, but still living near bankruptcy for 2 years, I applied at a major firm in my industry, thinking a job would be more secure. They asked me if I was going to get an MBA first, their only question. I said piss off, that's ridiculous, and worked twice as hard on my business. Soon it turned around, permanently.

Life is made of choices -- start your own company, if every small business out there is so horribly abusive and raking in the cash, -- or so these threads would have one believe.

Most don't ever have the balls, though. Bottom line. Bitching is so much easier.
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Re: Training Bonds...

Post by digits_ » Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:13 pm

Referencing your example, it's those "without the balls" that are stuck at sub par operators. Do you really want to force those people to shut up even more by bonding them?
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Re: Training Bonds...

Post by rookiepilot » Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:24 pm

digits_ wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 2:13 pm
Referencing your example, it's those "without the balls" that are stuck at sub par operators. Do you really want to force those people to shut up even more by bonding them?
I don't know training bonds well enough.

However I do know courts have enforced certain non compete agreements for employees who have left after receiving items of great value during their employment-- such as proprietary company information, customer lists ect. I knew, I signed one, and respected it.

The courts recognize an employee, having had a substantial investment made into their career by a company, cannot simply steal this investment to benefit a competitor.

It seems that a training investment made by an operator into a pilot has some parallels.

-------

Try to examine it from their side----
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