Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

[corethatthermal]

I will agree that the differential is high but if they can negotiate it then I don’t see a problem.

The AC pay scale continues to get worse with status getting longer and pensions getting crappier than in the past despite record profits that one could only dream about just a few years ago. The part that sucks for the industry is that AC gets used as the benchmarks and ACPA is a cluster that doesn’t have a repeat full bone in its organization. It predictably follows union doctrine of the top ending getting what it wants and not looking after the bottom half

What a great irony, in 1 verse you say its ok for the big guy to take most of the $$$ and in the second sentence, you lament for the little guy Do you not see a connection there?

[TheStig]

<Rant on>

I refuse to accept the present pay conditions at AC or any company that pegs it's dollar to theirs, which is why I've stuck to my holding pattern where my pay has always continued to increase. I have NEVER taken a paycut for metal.

I just think it's funny and ironic the compensation during the boom times is only reflected in management.

You guys are going to get to 2021, oil will spike, market is going to drown and management is going to wipe the floor with your new agreement. Conversation from Calin is going to go somewhere along the lines of 'Hey guys, times are tight, we need to do some belt tightening to stay afloat.'

Why do you think they commit you to 10 year deals? So it aligns with the good times? Hardly.

Enjoy being the cheapest labour on the international market.

<Rant over>

I hope to god I am wrong about my predictions and you guys get a stellar deal because it will raise the ceiling on all fronts.

S.

This thread reeks of petty jealousy. But if you can't complain on the internet, where can you? Here's my rebuttal rant.

The pilot group was just paid their annual profit sharing, so they do in fact get to share the prosperity. The formula used to calculate the bonus is based on the same silly EBITAR metric that the Managers/Execs use. For what it's worth, half the pool of money is distributed evenly, the other half based on earnings.

HOW DARE the Chief Executive Officer of an 18 Billion dollar operation with over 30,000 employees make (slightly) more than Auston Matthews?!? (Remind me again how much his linemates earn?) Somebody call the TorontoStar! Damn Capitalism, why can't we be more like Cuba or Venezuela?

Congratulations to Calin Rovinescu, a little under half of his annual remuneration was share based, how would you feel about having half of your pay based on airline stock?

The collective agreement runs until 2024. You really think oil is going to spike? I believe we're headed for another recession if that's what you were alluding to. I've got to admit that when the next downturn hits I'd much rather be a pilot on a seniority list than an Executive (or a Corporate Pilot). In 2009 the airline had around 300 surplus pilots, 0 layoffs.

The average AC FO is earning around $150,000 a year despite the much maligned 4 year fixed rates, while the average Captains pay is over $250,000. There are lot of things everyone would pick and choose to change about the current collective agreement. You can hand pick a (very) few examples of fixed rate widebody FO's, but AC does not employ the lowest-cost pilots.

We're fortunate, as Canadians to have the access we do to the US market, but our countries are headed in opposite directions. Americans celebrate prosperity, Canadians seems to want to smother it. Don't get me wrong I'd love to be working under Delta's contract but maybe it's time we find benchmarks in a country with same 'shared values' Canadians have? Argentina? France? Poland? I don't know but maybe we need to start looking beyond the US?

[schnitzel2k3]

<Rant on>

I refuse to accept the present pay conditions at AC or any company that pegs it's dollar to theirs, which is why I've stuck to my holding pattern where my pay has always continued to increase. I have NEVER taken a paycut for metal.

I just think it's funny and ironic the compensation during the boom times is only reflected in management.

You guys are going to get to 2021, oil will spike, market is going to drown and management is going to wipe the floor with your new agreement. Conversation from Calin is going to go somewhere along the lines of 'Hey guys, times are tight, we need to do some belt tightening to stay afloat.'

Why do you think they commit you to 10 year deals? So it aligns with the good times? Hardly.

Enjoy being the cheapest labour on the international market.

<Rant over>

I hope to god I am wrong about my predictions and you guys get a stellar deal because it will raise the ceiling on all fronts.

S.

This thread reeks of petty jealousy. But if you can't complain on the internet, where can you? Here's my rebuttal rant.

The pilot group was just paid their annual profit sharing, so they do in fact get to share the prosperity. The formula used to calculate the bonus is based on the same silly EBITAR metric that the Managers/Execs use. For what it's worth, half the pool of money is distributed evenly, the other half based on earnings.

HOW DARE the Chief Executive Officer of an 18 Billion dollar operation with over 30,000 employees make (slightly) more than Auston Matthews?!? (Remind me again how much his linemates earn?) Somebody call the TorontoStar! Damn Capitalism, why can't we be more like Cuba or Venezuela?

Congratulations to Calin Rovinescu, a little under half of his annual remuneration was share based, how would you feel about having half of your pay based on airline stock?

The collective agreement runs until 2024. You really think oil is going to spike? I believe we're headed for another recession if that's what you were alluding to. I've got to admit that when the next downturn hits I'd much rather be a pilot on a seniority list than an Executive (or a Corporate Pilot). In 2009 the airline had around 300 surplus pilots, 0 layoffs.

The average AC FO is earning around $150,000 a year despite the much maligned 4 year fixed rates, while the average Captains pay is over $250,000. There are lot of things everyone would pick and choose to change about the current collective agreement. You can hand pick a (very) few examples of fixed rate widebody FO's, but AC does not employ the lowest-cost pilots.

We're fortunate, as Canadians to have the access we do to the US market, but our countries are headed in opposite directions. Americans celebrate prosperity, Canadians seems to want to smother it. Don't get me wrong I'd love to be working under Delta's contract but maybe it's time we find benchmarks in a country with same 'shared values' Canadians have? Argentina? France? Poland? I don't know but maybe we need to start looking beyond the US?

Good on you

S.

[MKIII]

You don’t get what you deserve...you get what you negotiate!

[Hilroy]

You don’t get what you deserve...you get what you negotiate!

One major thing is the representation in the negociation committee. Bunch of captains with 30+ years of seniority, I'm not sure it's the optimal panel to represent the interest of EVERY members, including juniors.

My comment is also applicable to other fields.

[confusedalot]

ummmnh.....stupid as I am, hey I was born that way......

Is the big red pilot thing nothing more than getting the job, and cruising along with little effort to get to a top paying place in life that will guarantee you an upper class existence with zero jeopardy?

You can try to figure out all of the bullshit in running an airline for an alternative. Suspect you will be happy in collecting a pilot paycheck.

['97 Tercel]

What?

[cloak]

Sooooo.....what did you say the starting pay was again? Hmmm and guys are flying the 777 on that flat pay eh? Tell me more.

https://www.thestar.com/business/2019/0 ... enues.html



*Updated title to the more poignant point of the article*

S.

Very interesting observation! If one knows of a good justification or explanation for F O U R L O N G Y E A R S of flat pay, please do share! Otherwise would it not make sense to fix one's own low pay BEFORE picketing at WestJet AGM in support of their brethren?!!

[Rezy]

Sooooo.....what did you say the starting pay was again? Hmmm and guys are flying the 777 on that flat pay eh? Tell me more.

https://www.thestar.com/business/2019/0 ... enues.html



*Updated title to the more poignant point of the article*

S.

Very interesting observation! If one knows of a good justification or explanation for F O U R L O N G Y E A R S of flat pay, please do share! Otherwise would it not make sense to fix one's own low pay BEFORE picketing at WestJet AGM in support of their brethren?!!

What does the 4 years flat pay compare to first 4 years at WJ?

[altiplano]

If one knows of a good justification or explanation for F O U R L O N G Y E A R S of flat pay, please do share!

Not that I think you really care, and I'm against the 4 year flat, but for the sake of clarity and perspective, here's how it went...

When 4 year flat was negotiated:

- Year 1 & 2 were fixed pay every month at an even lower rate, it didn't matter how much you worked, you were paid about $40K/year... maybe even it was a little less...

- Year 3 & 4, there were a handful of guys who were able to hold formula pay as 320 FO, but most guys were either EMJ FO, or RP in the "pay group" roughly similar to the new "flat pay hourly rates".

-Widebody FO was ballpark 10 years seniority depending on type.

The idea was to ease the pain in the first 2 years, get a higher hourly rate, plus allow guys to work more to make more, draft/OT premiums etc.

The cost was selling out formula pay on the handful of guys that would move to 320 FO in years 3/4.

ACPA just looked at the landscape as it was that day and it was balanced, it gave the guys in the first couple years a lift plus the upside of being able to earn more, OT, premiums, etc. But they potentially traded 2 years of 320 FO formula pay to get it...

Of course the company could foresee that eventually they would have huge shortages, wide open bids into the highest formula pay FO seats for new hires... they knew exactly what the benefit was to them on this... nobody at the ACPA table could imagine that though... that's unfortunately a common theme, good intentions, seems like a good idea at the time, but can't appreciate the changing landscape...

I'll remind you also that AC Pilots voted that TA down with the 4 year flat and loss of DB pension to new hires. The TA1 leadership was recalled/resigned... Only to later torpedo us (group of 27) which led to the Ratt and Harper colluding with Rovinescu in FOS to shove it down out throats anyway.

You can always bid CA to escape it... seems to stand for now. We'll see what happens when the A220s come and the Max-mess gets sorted out... but those 2&3 year upgrades can't last forever I suppose.

[mixturerich]

[/quote]

Very interesting observation! If one knows of a good justification or explanation for F O U R L O N G Y E A R S of flat pay, please do share!
[/quote]

Who needs to justify/explain it? AC certainly doesn’t.

My personal justification would be that four years isn’t really that long in the grand scheme of things. There’s so much money to be made down the road. The rest of Canada doesn’t have a lot of good alternatives to what a long term AC career has to offer.

[goleafsgo]

How does the flat pay actually work? Does it mean no overtime pay or anything at all for 4 years?

[skypirate88]

How does the flat pay actually work? Does it mean no overtime pay or anything at all for 4 years?

No, it just means the pay is the same for all equipment. Overtime available varies fleet by fleet but is paid on top of annual salary.

First year mainline salary is flat to 75 hours, then is paid at about 59 $/hr after 75 hours. Rouge is similar, but it's 77.5 hours.

[goleafsgo]

How does the flat pay actually work? Does it mean no overtime pay or anything at all for 4 years?

No, it just means the pay is the same for all equipment. Overtime available varies fleet by fleet but is paid on top of annual salary.

First year mainline salary is flat to 75 hours, then is paid at about 59 $/hr after 75 hours. Rouge is similar, but it's 77.5 hours.

Thanks for clearing that up

[Dry Guy]

How does the flat pay actually work? Does it mean no overtime pay or anything at all for 4 years?

No, it just means the pay is the same for all equipment. Overtime available varies fleet by fleet but is paid on top of annual salary.

First year mainline salary is flat to 75 hours, then is paid at about 59 $/hr after 75 hours. Rouge is similar, but it's 77.5 hours.

So why wouldn't you go widebody? Isn't it the easiest job?

[skypirate88]

How does the flat pay actually work? Does it mean no overtime pay or anything at all for 4 years?

No, it just means the pay is the same for all equipment. Overtime available varies fleet by fleet but is paid on top of annual salary.

First year mainline salary is flat to 75 hours, then is paid at about 59 $/hr after 75 hours. Rouge is similar, but it's 77.5 hours.

So why wouldn't you go widebody? Isn't it the easiest job?

Perhaps as an RP, where your seniority has a chance to improve. Personally, sitting at the bottom of the FO list on reserve isn't appealing to me. At least as a junior RP, you have a good idea what flights they could call you for. As an FO, you could get called in to operate anything from a rapid air to a long haul flight.

I think ultimately it will depend on the pilot. For me, at this stage in my life it isn't an appealing position. That isn't to say that it wouldn't be ideal for someone else.

[altiplano]

How does the flat pay actually work? Does it mean no overtime pay or anything at all for 4 years?

ALL FO or RP positions Year 1-2-3-4
$60.06
$65.67
$74.84
$83.80

75 guaranteed at Mainline
Plus 50% premium on extra flying over monthly DBM, Plus 50% premium on any hours over 85.

77.5 guaranteed at Rogue
Plus 50% premium on extra flying or,
Plus 150% premium if extra flying is draft.

If you bid to a Captain seat in your first 4 years you go to that formula rate.

[schnitzel2k3]

How does the flat pay actually work? Does it mean no overtime pay or anything at all for 4 years?

ALL FO or RP positions Year 1-2-3-4
$60.06
$65.67
$74.84
$83.80

75 guaranteed at Mainline
Plus 50% premium on extra flying over monthly DBM, Plus 50% premium on any hours over 85.

77.5 guaranteed at Rogue
Plus 50% premium on extra flying or,
Plus 150% premium if extra flying is draft.

If you bid to a Captain seat in your first 4 years you go to that formula rate.

It's sad when I made more flying Navajos and 1900s for the first 4 years of my career. Essentially you are earning on paper under 75k for the first 4 years at AC (plus the extra hours) flying for a major international carrier.

Please, everyone who has the power to vote, raise your rates on the next contract so you can give the industry some room to breathe. This benefits everybody and we appreciate it very much. Your current contracts unfortunately set a very poor precedent regarding salary ceilings in Canada for all sectors, particularly when you compare those salaries with other countries with lower costs of living.

Thanks,

S.

[goingnowherefast]

Air Canada is genius with the whole Express hiring deal. Bring in kids to Express with 1000hrs when they're too naive to know better. Get them used to crap FO pay. After two years, they move over to AC, and take the awesome pay raise from 40 grand to 56 grand! Who wouldn't want that!

Just enough will stay behind to fill the captain seats.

The big wigs are playing the working class like a fiddle. Goes for more than just aviation.

[altiplano]

schnitzel:

What's sad is that this is a recurring theme from you, and you don't seem to get it... we've had this discussion before... it takes the whole industry to make gains. 1 group can't do it alone.