Boeing Systemic Problems Continue

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Raymond Hall
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Boeing Systemic Problems Continue

Post by Raymond Hall » Sun Apr 21, 2019 5:29 pm

It's not just the MAX:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/20/busi ... blems.html
'
A New York Times review of hundreds of pages of internal emails, corporate documents and federal records, as well as interviews with more than a dozen current and former employees, reveals a culture that often valued production speed over quality. Facing long manufacturing delays, Boeing pushed its work force to quickly turn out Dreamliners, at times ignoring issues raised by employees. …

Safety lapses at the North Charleston plant have drawn the scrutiny of airlines and regulators. Qatar Airways stopped accepting planes from the factory after manufacturing mishaps damaged jets and delayed deliveries. Workers have filed nearly a dozen whistle-blower claims and safety complaints with federal regulators, describing issues like defective manufacturing, debris left on planes and pressure to not report violations. Others have sued Boeing, saying they were retaliated against for flagging manufacturing mistakes.

Faulty parts have been installed in planes. Tools and metal shavings have routinely been left inside jets, often near electrical systems. Aircraft have taken test flights with debris in an engine and a tail, risking failure.
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corethatthermal
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Re: Boeing Systemic Problems Continue

Post by corethatthermal » Sun Apr 21, 2019 7:47 pm

The result of,,,, Unions, affirmative action ( hiring rif-raf off the streets because they satisfy a certain "diversification requirement" ) and corporate greed ultimately produces the expected results that we are seeing NOW And the only reason WE are hearing about these stories is because of 2 accidents and the media being forced to be the first reporter out of the block to pass their competitors !
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Re: Boeing Systemic Problems Continue

Post by FL410AV8R » Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:01 am

corethatthermal wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 7:47 pm
The result of,,,, Unions, affirmative action ( hiring rif-raf off the streets because they satisfy a certain "diversification requirement" ) and corporate greed ultimately produces the expected results that we are seeing NOW And the only reason WE are hearing about these stories is because of 2 accidents and the media being forced to be the first reporter out of the block to pass their competitors !
Wasn't the main reason for Boeing opening the plant in Charleston, in non-union friendly South Carolina, to break the power on the unions in Seattle??

As for the hiring practices, I can't speak to that but the corporate greed part os of little surprise to anyone.
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Captain X
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Re: Boeing Systemic Problems Continue

Post by Captain X » Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:28 am

There was a documentary a few years ago called “flying cheaper” It talks about this exact topic, rushed , unskilled labour etc at the SC Boeing plant, along with a bunch of other topics of how aviation is going to the lowest bidder for maintenance checks etc. Worth a watch. There was two I believe “flying cheap” and “flying cheaper” the later was the one about Boeing’s SC plant.
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Re: Boeing Systemic Problems Continue

Post by Old fella » Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:21 pm

Speaking of which(this being AC site), what happens to the B737 flight crews(capt, f/o and f/a) with prolonged grounding. Obviously still on the payroll of some sort but needless to say ,big implications on the airline’s bottom line at some point. No doubt these aircraft will be back on line at some time down the road, do those B737 pilots get sim time to ensure standards are maintained once the airplanes are back flying.
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yycflyguy
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Re: Boeing Systemic Problems Continue

Post by yycflyguy » Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:00 am

Old fella wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:21 pm
Speaking of which(this being AC site), what happens to the B737 flight crews(capt, f/o and f/a) with prolonged grounding. Obviously still on the payroll of some sort but needless to say ,big implications on the airline’s bottom line at some point. No doubt these aircraft will be back on line at some time down the road, do those B737 pilots get sim time to ensure standards are maintained once the airplanes are back flying.
Yes. Monthly currency sims to maintain 3 take off/landing CARs requirement in addition to scenario training for trim runaways and flight control systems. The plan is a staggered re-introduction of the 24 planes back into the schedule to allow for currency was the grounding is lifted.

It'll get interesting when this grounding extends past the MOA date of June 30. I have no doubt that the airline will be re-imbursed from Boeing, the question is, will the pilots be properly compensated?
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Re: Boeing Systemic Problems Continue

Post by altiplano » Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:22 am

The MOA is LATER OF end of June block month or reintroduction.

So if it's not ungrounded, the MOA carries... everyone's getting paid.

Item 9 in the MOA.
Screenshot_2019-04-24-12-26-08.png
Screenshot_2019-04-24-12-26-08.png (1.12 MiB) Viewed 3489 times
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Re: Boeing Systemic Problems Continue

Post by yycflyguy » Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:41 am

Yup, you're right. I guess it's just my distrusting nature. :lol:
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Re: Boeing Systemic Problems Continue

Post by daedalusx » Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:49 pm

Captain X wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 8:28 am
There was a documentary a few years ago called “flying cheaper” It talks about this exact topic, rushed , unskilled labour etc at the SC Boeing plant, along with a bunch of other topics of how aviation is going to the lowest bidder for maintenance checks etc. Worth a watch. There was two I believe “flying cheap” and “flying cheaper” the later was the one about Boeing’s SC plant.
That’s right.

Flying cheap was produced by PBS Frontline, an absolute must watch for the young guys and gals just starting their careers. It one about regionals, crash pads and the Colgan Air crash. It’s on YouTube.

Flying cheaper also produced by PBS, about Boeing outsourcing practices. https://www.pbs.org/video/frontline-flying-cheaper/
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Raymond Hall
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Re: Boeing Systemic Problems Continue

Post by Raymond Hall » Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:52 pm

LA Times, March 24th:
The company provided few clues about the fate of its bestselling plane and when it might fly again.

It said Wednesday it is making steady progress on the path to final certification for the software update for the 737 Max, with over 135 test and production flights of the software update complete. The company said it continues to work closely with global regulators and airline partners to comprehensively test the software and finalize a robust package of training and educational resources.

Boeing CEO Dennis Muilenburg said the company has conducted 120 test flights of the upgraded software, and only needs a final certification flight with FAA personnel on board. That flight is expected any day.

Last week, an expert panel of the Federal Aviation Administration judged that a software fix to the Max would be "operationally suitable," and that airline pilots familiar with previous versions of the 737 won't need additional time in flight simulators to learn about the new software that is unique to the Max.
https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi- ... story.html
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Re: Boeing Systemic Problems Continue

Post by altiplano » Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:59 pm

yycflyguy wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:41 am
Yup, you're right. I guess it's just my distrusting nature. :lol:
They'll probably come up with something else and F- it up though... ie. "paid summer off wasn't the intent"...

Actually, I think the group in there now has a handle on it. I can't see MM giving anything back... they'll have to reduce and move guys if they want to stop paying.
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Re: Boeing Systemic Problems Continue

Post by daedalusx » Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:02 pm

It’s not that hard to code a software patch that would limit the MCAS range and speed of trim as well as include a proper AOA comparator and warning system.

The major issue at hand is the stupidity and greed of Boeing releasing it as it was originally in the first place. Especially since apparently they knew about issues with the AOA logic since August 2018.
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In twenty years time when your kids ask how you got into flying you want to be able to say "work and determination" not "I just kept taking money from your grandparents for type ratings until someone was stupid enough to give me a job"

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Re: Boeing Systemic Problems Continue

Post by goingnowherefast » Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:13 pm

The USAF is pissed about the quality of the KC-46s (based off 767), plus the MAX certification questions. Boeing is going to have one hell of a fun time certifying the 777X and whatever they're planning next, a la "797".
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Re: Boeing Systemic Problems Continue

Post by Raymond Hall » Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:41 pm

So, Boeing is still saying that it did not make any errors in its design of the Max! From today's Washington Post:

"Asked about what led to the safety flaws in the 737 Max, Muilenburg said Boeing didn’t make any mistakes in its design of the planes. “There was no surprise or gap or unknown here or something that somehow slipped through the certification,” Muilenburg said. “We know exactly how the airplane was designed, and we know exactly how the airplane was certified.”

"The CEO said both crashes were caused by a “series of events" that included erroneous sensor data being fed into the maneuvering characteristics augmentation system, or MCAS, an anti-stall system that played a role in both crashes. “There were actions — or actions not taken — that contributed to the final outcome,” he said, alluding to the role of the pilots.

"The company faces investigations into the 737 Max from the Justice Department’s criminal division, the Transportation Department’s inspector general and two congressional committees." ...

"Boeing executives have pushed back on the idea that the two crashes point to any fundamental flaws related to how Boeing designs or certifies aircraft. Even so, a committee of Boeing board members is reviewing its process for aircraft design, development and certification and will recommend improvements in order to 'make a safe industry even safer.' ” ...

"Boeing is facing lawsuits from the families of the crashes of Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines, which are likely to hold the company accountable for significant financial damages. Airlines are incurring millions of dollars in costs as they cancel hundreds of flights a day, which Boeing is likely to repay in the form of future discounts on new planes. Together, analysts say these penalties could cost Boeing billions of dollars -- though its insurers are likely to be on the hook for part or all of that."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business ... 345690df08
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Re: Boeing Systemic Problems Continue

Post by yycflyguy » Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:37 am

"Boeing is facing lawsuits from the families of the crashes of Lion Air and Ethiopian Airlines, which are likely to hold the company accountable for significant financial damages. Airlines are incurring millions of dollars in costs as they cancel hundreds of flights a day, which Boeing is likely to repay in the form of future discounts on new planes. Together, analysts say these penalties could cost Boeing billions of dollars -- though its insurers are likely to be on the hook for part or all of that."
Imagine if this had happened in the litigious USA (or Canada these days).....
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Re: Boeing Systemic Problems Continue

Post by Eric Janson » Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:34 pm

Ralph Nader's viewpoint:-

https://www.commondreams.org/views/2019 ... muilenburg

I agree - this Virtue Signalling CEO Dennis Muilenburg has to go.
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Re: Boeing Systemic Problems Continue

Post by FADEC » Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:44 pm

Don't forget the Boeing history of covering up flaws in their aircraft.
The 737 rudder actuator had a flaw that made it go hardover; caused several crashes which were blamed on everything but the unit.
Finally, a British crew managed to land an airplane with the fault, and Boeing had to re-design the part.
The engine "Fuse Pins" on the 747 were flawed; engines fell off, causing a couple of crashes, including one crashing into apartments in Amsterdam.
The horizontal stabiliser on the 707 would occasionally break off when landing flap was selected; not good! At least three crashes before a life limit was placed on it.
There are many more!
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Re: Boeing Systemic Problems Continue

Post by L39Guy » Sun Apr 28, 2019 9:58 pm

I guess kicking Boeing while they are down is de rigeur these days.

I think some perspective is in order. Aircraft, unlike cars and other devices, are highly complex machines designed to do what man is not intended to do (fly) in some of the most adverse conditions imaginable (virtually no air pressure, cold temperatures, etc). Aircraft, particularly modern aircraft, are simply amazing engineering feats.

Are they perfect? Are they infallible? Not at all but show me any other device that is as complex that does not have its challenges? Samsung cellphones with exploding batteries, vehicles with mandatory recalls, etc.

Consider too how many aircraft are airborne at any one time, consider that some of these aircraft may not be maintained "by the book" by less scrupulous operators, consider how efficient these aircraft are today compared to 30 years ago.

Yes, the MAX has its issue (MCAS) but I would submit that there is not an aircraft out there that does not have its "issues". I would also submit that if one takes a close look at the MCAS accidents (don't rely on the printed media as they have no clue about what they are writing about) by reading the preliminary accident reports, interpreting the FDR printouts, etc and combine that with one's own knowledge, one would conclude that MCAS needs tweaking, but most importantly that the crews flying these aircraft failed their passengers in how they handled these situations, all of which were recoverable.

Please note that I did not say "pilot error". The entire system failed the crew and passengers - Boeing failed by assuming that B737 type rated pilots could execute an Unreliable Airspeed NNC followed by a Stab Trim Runaway, the CAA's and the airlines are complicit in allowing pilot flying skills to atrophy by an over reliance on automation, and finally the pilots and their unions for allowing the dumbing down of the industry. Plenty of blame to go around but Boeing is not alone.
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Re: Boeing Systemic Problems Continue

Post by Daniel Cooper » Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:37 pm

There's a reason they don't give you multiple compounding failures in the sim. It can be very confusing. Why put pilots in that situation in the first place due to a simple AOA sensor error? Why no comparator system? Why make even an AOA DISAGREE light an optional extra? Why not tell pilots about the MCAS system at all other than what it stands for? It's getting pretty obvious that the answer is money which is why people are upset with Boeing.
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Re: Boeing Systemic Problems Continue

Post by DanWEC » Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:54 pm

L39Guy wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 9:58 pm
Are they perfect? Are they infallible? Not at all but show me any other device that is as complex that does not have its challenges? Samsung cellphones with exploding batteries, vehicles with mandatory recalls etc.
All excellent examples of the same corporate mandate to push products to consumers without due diligence. Just because others are just as negligent does not justify the practice!
Last I checked rushing a phone to market only caused tech envy and not mass fatalities.

It's all fucking bullshirt if you ask me.
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Re: Boeing Systemic Problems Continue

Post by pianokeys » Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:22 am

DanWEC wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:54 pm
L39Guy wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 9:58 pm
Are they perfect? Are they infallible? Not at all but show me any other device that is as complex that does not have its challenges? Samsung cellphones with exploding batteries, vehicles with mandatory recalls etc.
Last I checked rushing a phone to market only caused tech envy and not mass fatalities.
Yup. One of these is not like the other! One can wipe out 180 plus people in one go, the other one is just annoying.
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Re: Boeing Systemic Problems Continue

Post by goingnowherefast » Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:23 am

Transport category aircraft require redundancy in almost every part of the design. MCAS somehow escaped this despite a second sensor being installed, but not included. The AOA display and AOA disagree being integral to a flight control system, but being options for cost points at money being more important than safety.

It is one layer in the swiss cheese, but it's a pretty big hole in that slice.
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Re: Boeing Systemic Problems Continue

Post by Inverted2 » Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:43 am

Eric Janson wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:34 pm
Ralph Nader's viewpoint:-

https://www.commondreams.org/views/2019 ... muilenburg

I agree - this Virtue Signalling CEO Dennis Muilenburg has to go.
At least a Ralph didn’t call it the Corvair. :mrgreen:
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Re: Boeing Systemic Problems Continue

Post by L39Guy » Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:48 am

Daniel Cooper wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:37 pm
There's a reason they don't give you multiple compounding failures in the sim. It can be very confusing. Why put pilots in that situation in the first place due to a simple AOA sensor error? Why no comparator system? Why make even an AOA DISAGREE light an optional extra? Why not tell pilots about the MCAS system at all other than what it stands for? It's getting pretty obvious that the answer is money which is why people are upset with Boeing.
If you study the preliminary reports as I have done (and not based one's understanding from the New York Times or Wall Street Journal), one quickly discovers that neither of the accident aircraft crews did the Unreliable Airspeed Checklist (UAS) yet the crew of the Lion Air incident aircraft the day before did. The airspeed was unreliable the moment that aircraft lifted off - stick shaker, IAS Disagree, etc., yet neither of the accident crews executed a pretty simple recall (memory) procedure (autopilot off, autothrottle off, set 10 degrees pitch and 80% power). This was long before MCAS kicked in when the flaps were raised (raising the flaps with the apparent intention of proceeding to destination with UAS is questionable airmanship). It is also interesting to note that in the Ethiopian case, the Captain tried to engage the autopilot at 400 ft ("Command"), a definite no-no with UAS or, alternatively, if he thought he was stalling - one does not recover from a stall with the autopilot.

The incident aircraft crew did perform the UAS checklist and they were able to control the aircraft even after MCAS reared its ugly head. Why were they able to control the aircraft? Because they were not racing around at Vmo (about 340 kts) like the others trying to manually trim the aircraft with the trim wheel - the forces to turn that trim wheel at that speed are impossible for even the fittest pilot. The fact that the incident aircraft crew did not know the Stab Trim Runaway checklist and relied upon a B737 jump-seater from another airline to tell them to turn off the stab trim is another story. So is the fact that they continued to destination (1 1/2 hour flight) and not land immediately with both UAS and a Stab Trim Runaway is another (airmanship) issue.

So while multiple unrelated failures are not provided in sim training, the crews of the accident aircraft did not even do the UAS procedure from the moment they lifted off to when the retracted the flaps. Up until flap retraction, this was a single failure event not a multiple, unrelated failure.
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Re: Boeing Systemic Problems Continue

Post by L39Guy » Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:57 am

goingnowherefast wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:23 am
Transport category aircraft require redundancy in almost every part of the design. MCAS somehow escaped this despite a second sensor being installed, but not included. The AOA display and AOA disagree being integral to a flight control system, but being options for cost points at money being more important than safety.

It is one layer in the swiss cheese, but it's a pretty big hole in that slice.
Not quite true - in the case of the B737, the electrical stab trim system is a single point of failure (single trim motor, etc), and that is why there is a Stab Trim Runaway checklist and a manual procedure to fly the aircraft thereafter. An engine failure is a single point of failure (for whatever reason) that requires pilot intervention - that is why we do V1 cuts, etc. Same thing with the outflow valves for the pressurization system.

I agree, however, that MCAS needs some redesign however to tone it down a bit. There will never be three AOA sensors on the B737 so there will be no means to do democracy of AOA (vote the erroneous one out).

The Turkish accident at Schipol was the result of a single radar altimeter input into the autothrottle; when the single source thought it was at zero feet it retarded the thrust levers, the speed decayed and the aircraft stalled, despite three pilots being in the flight deck. Boeing then modified the system to take two inputs.
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