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Blue42
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Re: One list

Post by Blue42 »

George Taylor wrote: Thu May 02, 2019 1:56 pm I must admit I didn’t look at the lay-off language.
Totally a one way street. WJ pilots can’t take Encore jobs during layoffs. If their on the list and can stay, while senior guys get laid off (on the same list) that sucks.
This is a new change to the previous language. Now I can see the NO side.
☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️

That right there is a “NO” vote!!!!!

One list should be one list!!
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JBI
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Re: One list

Post by JBI »

Blue42 wrote: Thu May 02, 2019 2:47 pm
George Taylor wrote: Thu May 02, 2019 1:56 pm I must admit I didn’t look at the lay-off language.
Totally a one way street. WJ pilots can’t take Encore jobs during layoffs. If their on the list and can stay, while senior guys get laid off (on the same list) that sucks.
This is a new change to the previous language. Now I can see the NO side.
☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️

That right there is a “NO” vote!!!!! One list should be one list!!
So have you actually read your (mainline) Collective Agreement? You do realize that mainline has significantly more robust scope and anti lay-off clauses than Encore, correct? The separate lists for lay-offs clause actually PROTECTS mainline and Swoop guys BELOW Encore pilots from being laid off.

Check out the Scope section 1-1.05 of the mainline working agreement. Seriously, read through things and ask questions before you start posting stuff on AvCanada.

pacman007 wrote: Thu May 02, 2019 12:08 pm well if I was Westjet management I would just laugh and let the pilots be pitted against one another! if the Westjet pilots think they are going to stick it to management by dividing the group they are frankly...a little crazy. union busting and negotiation 101 is divide then conquer and if the pilots do that to themselves its just sad...also you said OTS hires would obviously vote NO..but if everyone hired before jan 1st position on the list won't change what is the benifit for the OTS pilots to vote no...isnt there position the same no matter if the list is voted in or not?? just don't get it
This I generally agree with. If mainline folks think that they are teaching the company a lesson by voting "no" they are seriously misunderstanding the situation.

I would argue that if you ask almost any mainline pilot what their biggest complaint about their new CA is the answer would be Swoop. Well here's the thing, if an Encore Captain who loses his/her seniority they now have a lot more to gain now by going to Swoop. In fact, (with VERY rough calculations) if they upgrade after two years at Swoop (which most Encore Captains would be eligible to do), they stand to make over $80,000 more total during their first 6 years after flowing than if they just went to mainline and became an FO. Sure the conditions at Swoop are not good, but making more money, flying a jet, having control over your base and STILL getting LOS starts looking more attractive.

So honestly, do mainline pilots think that they'll have more leverage with the company by saying no to the One List and thus making Swoop a more attractive destination for a number of Encore pilots?
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George Taylor
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Re: One list

Post by George Taylor »

[quote=JBI post_id=1076935 time=1556844589 user_id=363
Seriously, read through things and ask questions before you start posting stuff on AvCanada
[/quote]

Hey, Mein Kampf, I’ll take the same liberties as you and post whatever I want, and participate as I see fit.
The language was there before and now it’s not.

Sieg Heil
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hurtin'albertan
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Re: One list

Post by hurtin'albertan »

JBI wrote: Thu May 02, 2019 5:49 pm
Blue42 wrote: Thu May 02, 2019 2:47 pm
George Taylor wrote: Thu May 02, 2019 1:56 pm I must admit I didn’t look at the lay-off language.
Totally a one way street. WJ pilots can’t take Encore jobs during layoffs. If their on the list and can stay, while senior guys get laid off (on the same list) that sucks.
This is a new change to the previous language. Now I can see the NO side.
☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️

That right there is a “NO” vote!!!!! One list should be one list!!
So have you actually read your (mainline) Collective Agreement? You do realize that mainline has significantly more robust scope and anti lay-off clauses than Encore, correct? The separate lists for lay-offs clause actually PROTECTS mainline and Swoop guys BELOW Encore pilots from being laid off.

Check out the Scope section 1-1.05 of the mainline working agreement. Seriously, read through things and ask questions before you start posting stuff on AvCanada.

pacman007 wrote: Thu May 02, 2019 12:08 pm well if I was Westjet management I would just laugh and let the pilots be pitted against one another! if the Westjet pilots think they are going to stick it to management by dividing the group they are frankly...a little crazy. union busting and negotiation 101 is divide then conquer and if the pilots do that to themselves its just sad...also you said OTS hires would obviously vote NO..but if everyone hired before jan 1st position on the list won't change what is the benifit for the OTS pilots to vote no...isnt there position the same no matter if the list is voted in or not?? just don't get it
This I generally agree with. If mainline folks think that they are teaching the company a lesson by voting "no" they are seriously misunderstanding the situation.

I would argue that if you ask almost any mainline pilot what their biggest complaint about their new CA is the answer would be Swoop. Well here's the thing, if an Encore Captain who loses his/her seniority they now have a lot more to gain now by going to Swoop. In fact, (with VERY rough calculations) if they upgrade after two years at Swoop (which most Encore Captains would be eligible to do), they stand to make over $80,000 more total during their first 6 years after flowing than if they just went to mainline and became an FO. Sure the conditions at Swoop are not good, but making more money, flying a jet, having control over your base and STILL getting LOS starts looking more attractive.

So honestly, do mainline pilots think that they'll have more leverage with the company by saying no to the One List and thus making Swoop a more attractive destination for a number of Encore pilots?
Pretty much this. --^

If WJ pilots reneg on the one-list because they are angry at the company, or think it wasn't leveraged enough during the negotiations, or they just wanna have something to vote no to, they better think about what, exactly, is stopping Encore folks from bidding on every single swoop vacancy that comes up.

You want to give swoop a steady stream of willing supplicants? Kill the Encore pilot's position on the wj list by voting no. The quickest way for them to get back on the list is to come in via Swoop. Sure, a bunch may quit, but a lot will stay and go to swoop. Have a look at the past few Swoop bids. They haven't even been able to fill captain vacancies and are now looking for DEC off the street again. Encore fos were getting Swoop Cap positions.

The quickest way to end this swoop nightmare is to choke it out from attracting talent. You erase encore pilots from the wj lisi, they now have an incentive to bid on swoop.
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hurtin'albertan
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Re: One list

Post by hurtin'albertan »

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JBI
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Re: One list

Post by JBI »

George Taylor wrote: Thu May 02, 2019 7:05 pm
Hey, Mein Kampf, I’ll take the same liberties as you and post whatever I want, and participate as I see fit.
The language was there before and now it’s not.

Sieg Heil
My comment was aimed more at the poster responding to your post with an emphatic "that should be a NO vote!" (with five exclamation points and a bunch of finger emojis). Lay Offs and status are an important issue and getting a full understanding of the situation is important. I'll be the first to admit that the wording isn't very clear. Nonetheless, calling someone "my fight" and somewhat alluding to being a nazi for suggesting that folks read through their contract and get clarification on items they are not certain about is not really appropriate. I would also suggest it's not historically accurate either - the nazi's historical legacy isn't for making rational informed decisions...

Hopefully someone can post this clarification on the WJ ALPA forum. As an Encore pilot I do not have access to it. Because the mainline CA covers both Swoop and mainline whereas the Encore TA covers only Encore things are quite confusing.

In the mainline CA, Section 1-1 deals with Scope.

Section 1-1.03 provides a max amount of regional aircraft at "WestJet Encore and/or through a CPA or similar arrangement"

Section 1-1.04 provides that Swoop can operate up to 30 NB aircraft (without additional mainline capacity)

Section 1-1.05 is the important one where (a) there will be 90% of active WJ pilot positions and (b) No pilot shall be laid off as a direct result of a number of different commercial agreements.

While the Encore TA does have some similar language in section 2-4.01, it is less robust. There is no numbers of aircraft scope and there are significantly less types of commercial relationships specified that the company cannot use to affect lay-offs.

So, while hopefully no one at any of WJ/Swoop/Encore will have to deal with lay-offs, it would generally be much easier for the company to start with lay-offs at Encore than at mainline or Swoop.

BUT, if we have one-list for both flow AND lay-offs, there could potentially be Encore pilots more senior than either Mainline or Swoop pilots as there is right now. If we went straight to one list for example, there are a significant number of Encore pilots senior to the most junior Swoop pilots and even a few of the most junior mainline pilots. However, right now only senior Encore pilots hold a bid onto a mainline position, but really junior pilots can hold a bid into Swoop positions as most senior pilots, in support of Mainline pilots, haven't bid into Swoop.

If we had one list for lay offs too, the junior Swoop and mainline pilots (part of the same bargaining unit) would be susceptible to being bumped by senior Encore pilots.

Moving on now to the One List LOA document. It does say that WJ/Swoop pilots being laid off get to bid on open Encore positions but Encore pilots don't get to bid on open Swoop/WJ positions in sections 8.01 and 9.01. Although many mainline folks are reading this provision as "I don't get to bump Encore pilots if I'm laid off" the real way to read it is "Senior Encore pilots can't bump junior Swoop/WJ pilots if THEY get laid off".

Things ARE messy no doubt. 3 companies, 2 unions. But please let's read through all the documents and discuss things.

To Victory!
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cloak
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Re: One list

Post by cloak »

Firstly, congratulations to Encore pilots for securing a "good" contract and the 90% vote shows that the great majority agree with this sentiment. Great gains have been made in areas of flow and compensation, for not only flow has been increased to 60%, but it seems for the first time there is monetary value attached to this formula for the pilot group. Another great advantage is the top up pay which essentially starts Encore pilots at year three and well ahead of any other direct-hire pilots. These are significant gains that help build perspective.

They also show that perhaps the "one list" is being priced into the contract to create a more independently sustainable remuneration at Encore going forward. This is smart because the old model was simply not sustainable. Recall that Encore was started below "industry average" and well below the likes of Jazz and Porter. To compensate, much to the credit of WestJet pilots, the one list was created to entice the Encore pilots. As time has gone by, Encore has grown to mature on its own and this model is no longer sustainable or necessary. This is due to many factors.

Firstly, Encore has grown to be a sizeable airline with its own advantages compelling some to consider it for the long haul. Secondly, the great majority of the initial experienced group that established Encore has already flowed to WestJet or left for other greener pastures. The majority of new recruits, in comparison, are at the beginning of their careers and need not such incentives. And finally, the compensation package has improved and this new contract has already priced in a replacement for the "one list" in the form of monetary reward for Encore pilots and placing them ahead of direct-hire pilots. This model is sustainable.

While arguments can be presented with much fervor, perspective is needed to draw a logical, fair conclusion that creates a sustainable model. The same way that "separate bargaining units" is used as justification or explanation for the lay-off language, so too it can be in all situations, that is to say when an Encore pilot is "hired" at WestJet, they go to the bottom of the seniority list like any other new hire, except that they go ahead of other new hires and because of their service at Encore they are rewarded with bump-up pay for two years, so in essence they start at year three. Plus they forego the whole interview process that other new hires went through. And since new hires have no say in the labour relations of the company they join, "they should have known" cannot be a real justification/explanation for the one list. The same can be said for instance about Air Canada that just because pilots still join it, doesn't mean they agree with 4 long years of "probationary" pay.

For these factors, it is difficult to envision a "working" solution for the one list and whether or not this time, it is a model that will be obsolete.
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mbav8r
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Re: One list

Post by mbav8r »

JBI,
I understand that you’re a lawyer, so you would or should know better than most the importance of how something can be interpreted.
Section 1-1.05 is the important one where (a) there will be 90% of active WJ pilot positions and (b) No pilot shall be laid off as a direct result of a number of different commercial agreements.
My understanding of this, is this clause is based on the day this arbitrated agreement took effect, meaning if there were 1000 WJ pilots that day, 900 is the minimum they could go to as a result of shifting work.
Now, correct me if I’m wrong, this clause does not include Encore pilot positions therefore every Encore pilot that flows becomes part of the 90%, essentially bumping down the OTS pilots. In my example, if 100 Encore pilots flow, those that were number 800-900 are now at risk of lay-off in addition to those that were 900-1000.
The award is not name specific, it’s a number based on 90% of active pilots, you can see how this could be problematic for OTS pilots who are very likely to vote no.
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Mach1
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Re: One list

Post by Mach1 »

SPR wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:49 am
George Taylor wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:16 am Hey SPR there are lots of tissues in the jet, looks like you could use some. Sounds like a lot of fun being with you on a 4 day. It's not your fellow pilots that you should be angry with.
If pilots deprive me of my current standing on the One List, then that's exactly who I'll be angry with. Who else would be responsible?
Since Mach1 didn't bother to answer this question, I'll pose it to you too:
Here's an analogy: imagine you accepted a job at a starting wage of $100/hour, and your colleagues voted to reduce your pay to, say, $50/hour. Would you continue working there?
Sure, I'll answer that. What makes you think that this has not happened to me several times throughout my career? It did. Here's what I did: I adapted to the new situation as best I could and adjusted my life as needed and I moved forward in life. You can sit around being mad and bitter but it eats you up and it's just wasted energy because it changes nothing at the end of the day. Life changes and nothing is forever.

SPR, I know nothing will change your mind or alter your very set attitude in life but, what the hell, here's some free advice: Don't do me any favours by moving onto the mainline planes. I'll have to be that captain you sit with as you seethe about something you feel you didn't get in life. Eventually, you are going to force me to be an asshole, and I don't like being an asshole, to administer an attitude correction to you. If you think the captain you are flying with can't make your life a living hell, then you have not been in the industry long. It can go right up to me ejecting you from the flight deck. After that, both you and the captain are going to be called into the office to explain what happened. My answer will be simple. You failed to do your duty/endangered the aircraft through lack of SOP and CRM adherence. Your answer, if you are being honest, will be you are mad about X, Y, or Z that you are owed. Which side of this do you think the Chief Pilot or DFO are going to come down on? Who's career gets hurt when this happens? Just some food for thought for you.
Mr. North wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:12 pm It would behoove some of us to climb down from the haughty perch of "dues paying" and "hardship" and realize that new pilots are no more entitled than they are victims of circumstance.
I agree, the industry is in a position to improve and I think it should be improved. For all. One of the things overlooked by those at the top is that it's tough at the bottom... but the thing that is overlooked by those at the bottom is that dues have been paid by those at the upper levels right now. People who didn't get into the airlines until they were in their 40's and have only a limited amount of time to acquire a reasonable amount to retire on while those who are just beginning an airline career at 25 have a long life to earn high wages. I'm all for helping out those starting out but do you really think it will enter their consciousness to add money to my hourly wages or retirement benefits when the next contract gets negotiated? Or do you think they will look at the top earners and say, "Screw them, they make all this money and I only get this smaller amount!" even though one has been 20+ years in the industry vs. 5 years. I have no faith that a person like SPR would ever think, "Hey, that guy only got to earn big money for 10 years of his entire life, he should get a raise" But I can count on him to pout in the flight deck if he doesn't get everything he wants... mad at me because the system is somehow my fault. It's a long way of saying, this is a two way street.
Mr. North wrote: Tue Apr 30, 2019 8:12 pm The largest opportunity our profession has encountered in modern history is nearly upon us. How best do we approach it? On a unified front seeking improvements for all pilots? Or divided in groups taking an immature satisfaction in undercutting one another because of generational differences in experience and circumstance?
I agree. United we stand. Divided we fall.... that's from the top down and the bottom up.

I would also argue that those who think a no vote will reopen the contract that you are not being realistic in your hopes. The company (Clive) would burn the company to the ground rather than reopen that contract early. To do so would be to admit they were wrong and that's the one thing they cannot do. Better to burn it to the ground and start over in their minds.
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hurtin'albertan
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Re: One list

Post by hurtin'albertan »

To those who are pissed off about WJ pilots not being able to bump/flush out Encore pilots if there is a layoff at mainline, you need to consider that if you want that ability, then Encore pilots will want the same thing in the event there are layoffs there. You can't have your cake and eat it too,

Imagine this scenario: Mainline is growing, adding 787s, hiring etc. Sure some pilots are flowed from Encore, some though are OTS. Those OTS pilots are obviously at the bottom of the “one list”.

Now let’s say WJ enters into a CPA with some other company, or expands the one with Pasco and they can provide feed for the beast (787s). Let’s say that Encore has remained stagnant. Very little hiring, so there are a number of OTS mainline pilots occupying the bottom of the one list.

Now let’s say that Encore is having trouble attracting talent to staff their planes, or their flight attendants go on a lengthy strike, or the Q400 is grounded for a while a la Max (lucky the other CPA is running ATRs!) and the decision is made to just park some planes and lay off pilots. This isn’t a direct result of the CPA, which would violate Encore’s scope provision about commercial agreements but due to some other factor. Bottom line: there are layoffs at Encore.

Well now we have Encore pilots, who are senior to WJ mainline pilots on the One List punted to the curb?

"But it's one list!" you say. "Seniority rules!" you say.

If you want the ability to lay off in pure seniority on the One List, then it can’t just be one way. The junior guy, whether mainline, Swoop or Encore gets the boot.

Think about that before you get all indignant about not being able to flush Encore pilots if there is a layoff at mainline.
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Mr. North
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Re: One list

Post by Mr. North »

cloak wrote: Fri May 03, 2019 7:21 am Firstly, Encore has grown to be a sizeable airline with its own advantages compelling some to consider it for the long haul. Secondly, the great majority of the initial experienced group that established Encore has already flowed to WestJet or left for other greener pastures. The majority of new recruits, in comparison, are at the beginning of their careers and need not such incentives. And finally, the compensation package has improved and this new contract has already priced in a replacement for the "one list" in the form of monetary reward for Encore pilots and placing them ahead of direct-hire pilots. This model is sustainable.
What advantages does Encore posses that make it a lasting career choice? There is no pension, the ESP is only 10%, and the work rules (while better than Swoop) still fall short of mainline. Aside from the literal 5-6 individuals positioned in training with ambitions for management, I do not know a single line flying pilot who would consider Encore as a career destination, especially in this pilot hungry environment. The notion that somehow new or young pilots are less deserving of the benefits of seniority (that have been enjoyed up until now) is ridiculous and speaks to your disregard for your peers at Encore and pilots junior to you.

Compensation is now roughly on par with Jazz and Porter. The two year top up when one flows does not begin to approach the monetary value of the one list. The bump up is to recognize the service of Encore pilots and alleviate the transitional pay cut. It is not by any means intended to replace the incredible value of the one list which defines upgrades on the jet. It's absence would mean Encore pilots (present and former) would see their upgrade times on the jet extend by YEARS. A paltry $28K in no way "replaces" the financial impact of such a delay to captaincy.

When considering the financial and lifestyle gains an OTS pilot might enjoy should the one list disappear, it's easy to understand how they may develop a sense of unfairness. That bias however is misplaced and would be better directed by holding up a mirror. OTS pilots most certainly do have a say in labor conditions prior to employment, it's called not accepting the job! You accepted the job, you accepted the conditions.

Whether they deem the current system just or not, all OTS pilots should consider the risk to upsetting the apple cart. Are you willing to alienate hundreds of your peers already at mainline? Drive a wedge between an entire employee group working for the same parent company? Consider for a moment, the negative implications this could have at negotiations in 2023 and beyond. With flow times currently standing at 3.5 years and estimated to be 5+ for new hires, why on earth would anyone go to Encore just to start over again at WestJet? Especially when the Jazz/AC route offers a much shorter and concise timeline. Such a shortage would mean management would have to entice pilots to Encore by financial means. At whose expense do you think that will come from? If OTS pilots are so desperate for the left seat, go to AC where upgrades are holding steady at 2-4 years.

The only way to improve upon conditions at the top is to accommodate those at the bottom. Oh and avoiding a civil war helps too.
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Re: One list

Post by fish4life »

Did any encore pilots go to swoop when they had a hiring ban on?
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Re: One list

Post by DropTanks »

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Re: One list

Post by cloak »

Admittedly it is a difficult discussion to have in the presence of emotional attachment, at the same time pragmatically it is quite likely not just the OTS pilots, but also the ones that fly with them and know them and their experience. This is natural "human" tendency, albeit seemingly unfair to some, and this is why such arrangements normally come to an end. If it doesn't normally exist, is because it doesn't work in the long run. And the market has a way of balancing things, for instance those that have recently flowed have missed the top up pay, but they have flowed.

And accepting a job under certain conditions does not mean that one is married to those conditions in perpetuity. For instance those pilots that have recently joined Air Canada under the 4 long years of probationary pay are not obliged to uphold those conditions forever and CAN in the future, rather they must, when opportunity presents itself, work towards improving those conditions. In like manner, a senior pilot, or even management cannot, must not, remonstrate their efforts saying that they had joined under those conditions and must submit to it forever. Life is dynamic and things change in response to market needs and forces.
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Re: One list

Post by skyhighh »

cloak wrote: Sat May 04, 2019 9:51 am Admittedly it is a difficult discussion to have in the presence of emotional attachment, at the same time pragmatically it is quite likely not just the OTS pilots, but also the ones that fly with them and know them and their experience.
The conversation between OTS hires and Encore pilots must come with an understanding that a lot of OTS hires have a lot less experience than the Encore pilots. The reason why some went to mainline and others to Encore was just...luck. In the last few ground school, none of the OTS hires had more experience than any Encore Captain. Lets remember that Encore have pilots that came from heavy jets and/or have experience flying worldwide. The belief that OTS hires deserve to have seniority over the Encore pilots due to experience is just wrong. Let's remember how Encore got created and how WestJet forced pilots to go to Encore in order to go at some point to WestJet.

For the ones saying "It's okay it's just 3-4 years of your carreer"... well it is not... it's more like 10 years. Most of the Encore captains have 5.000+ hours and if they left Encore to go to any other airline they will go behind 500-1000h pilots, and if they go to mainline without keeping their seniority they would be behind 1500h pilots... Making all their experience built in the last basically 10 years... worth...nothing!

WestJet pilots are against the one list because they want to "screw" the company because of Swoop...But think about it for more than 2 seconds... What do you think Encore pilots are going to do if the one list fails? All the FOs are going to apply at Swoop and start building seniority + YOS... and then what? Mainline will be crying because Swoop will be more alive than ever!

Let's remember one thing... How many Encore pilots went to Swoop? How many WestJet pilots went to Swoop? The ones that are keeping Swoop alive are the WJ pilots, not the Encore ones. Encore pilots stood behind their brothers and sisters during the entire process, even during all the uncertainty.

If the LOA doesn't pass, not only will it create animosity between the two pilots group but you would be digging yourself a bigger hole that has already been done. The one list is legit one of the only thing that prevents Swoop from growing.

Be smart, vote smart.

An Encore pilot that has been standing behind the WJ pilot group for many years.
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sarg
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Re: One list

Post by sarg »

JBI wrote: Fri May 03, 2019 2:04 am

In the mainline CA, Section 1-1 deals with Scope.

Section 1-1.03 provides a max amount of regional aircraft at "WestJet Encore and/or through a CPA or similar arrangement"

Section 1-1.04 provides that Swoop can operate up to 30 NB aircraft (without additional mainline capacity)

Section 1-1.05 is the important one where (a) there will be 90% of active WJ pilot positions and (b) No pilot shall be laid off as a direct result of a number of different commercial agreements.

While the Encore TA does have some similar language in section 2-4.01, it is less robust. There is no numbers of aircraft scope and there are significantly less types of commercial relationships specified that the company cannot use to affect lay-offs.

So, while hopefully no one at any of WJ/Swoop/Encore will have to deal with lay-offs, it would generally be much easier for the company to start with lay-offs at Encore than at mainline or Swoop.

BUT, if we have one-list for both flow AND lay-offs, there could potentially be Encore pilots more senior than either Mainline or Swoop pilots as there is right now. If we went straight to one list for example, there are a significant number of Encore pilots senior to the most junior Swoop pilots and even a few of the most junior mainline pilots. However, right now only senior Encore pilots hold a bid onto a mainline position, but really junior pilots can hold a bid into Swoop positions as most senior pilots, in support of Mainline pilots, haven't bid into Swoop.

If we had one list for lay offs too, the junior Swoop and mainline pilots (part of the same bargaining unit) would be susceptible to being bumped by senior Encore pilots.

Moving on now to the One List LOA document. It does say that WJ/Swoop pilots being laid off get to bid on open Encore positions but Encore pilots don't get to bid on open Swoop/WJ positions in sections 8.01 and 9.01. Although many mainline folks are reading this provision as "I don't get to bump Encore pilots if I'm laid off" the real way to read it is "Senior Encore pilots can't bump junior Swoop/WJ pilots if THEY get laid off".

Things ARE messy no doubt. 3 companies, 2 unions. But please let's read through all the documents and discuss things.

To Victory!
Section 1-1.05 guarantees the number of pilots on Jan 1, 2019.

So 787's arrive for the next couple of years, maybe 20 of them growth by 20% or so in pilot numbers then the next 9/11 occurs company lays off 25% of the current (a few years down the road) pilot numbers. They still meet Section 1-1.05 clause but almost every current Encore pilot, because of flow, plus any OTS pilot are on the street while Encore pilots with less overall seniority are still employed.

This LOA needs to be fixed to work for all now and in the future.
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Biff
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Re: One list

Post by Biff »

skyhighh wrote: Sat May 04, 2019 10:38 am
The conversation between OTS hires and Encore pilots must come with an understanding that a lot of OTS hires have a lot less experience than the Encore pilots. The reason why some went to mainline and others to Encore was just...luck. In the last few ground school, none of the OTS hires had more experience than any Encore Captain. Lets remember that Encore have pilots that came from heavy jets and/or have experience flying worldwide. The belief that OTS hires deserve to have seniority over the Encore pilots due to experience is just wrong. Let's remember how Encore got created and how WestJet forced pilots to go to Encore in order to go at some point to WestJet.

For the ones saying "It's okay it's just 3-4 years of your carreer"... well it is not... it's more like 10 years. Most of the Encore captains have 5.000+ hours and if they left Encore to go to any other airline they will go behind 500-1000h pilots, and if they go to mainline without keeping their seniority they would be behind 1500h pilots... Making all their experience built in the last basically 10 years... worth...nothing!

WestJet pilots are against the one list because they want to "screw" the company because of Swoop...But think about it for more than 2 seconds... What do you think Encore pilots are going to do if the one list fails? All the FOs are going to apply at Swoop and start building seniority + YOS... and then what? Mainline will be crying because Swoop will be more alive than ever!

Let's remember one thing... How many Encore pilots went to Swoop? How many WestJet pilots went to Swoop? The ones that are keeping Swoop alive are the WJ pilots, not the Encore ones. Encore pilots stood behind their brothers and sisters during the entire process, even during all the uncertainty.

If the LOA doesn't pass, not only will it create animosity between the two pilots group but you would be digging yourself a bigger hole that has already been done. The one list is legit one of the only thing that prevents Swoop from growing.

Be smart, vote smart.

An Encore pilot that has been standing behind the WJ pilot group for many years.
I’m not sure why the Encore pilots would believe they are doing mainline pilots a favour by not applying at Swoop. As a mainline pilot, I would rather see the Swoop captain positions go to an Encore employee then to a DEC from outside the company. As far as I can tell, everyone at mainline believes the same.

Please, if you’re an Encore pilot and you want to go to Swoop, go. Swoop is going to keep growing(until management decides it’s not worth wasting any more money) whether it’s by hiring DEC from Encore or from OTS. We would rather it go internal.
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JBI
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Re: One list

Post by JBI »

Biff wrote: Sat May 04, 2019 6:47 pm
I’m not sure why the Encore pilots would believe they are doing mainline pilots a favour by not applying at Swoop. As a mainline pilot, I would rather see the Swoop captain positions go to an Encore employee then to a DEC from outside the company. As far as I can tell, everyone at mainline believes the same.

Please, if you’re an Encore pilot and you want to go to Swoop, go. Swoop is going to keep growing(until management decides it’s not worth wasting any more money) whether it’s by hiring DEC from Encore or from OTS. We would rather it go internal.
Hi Biff,

Thanks for your comment. While I generally share your thoughts and won't judge a pilot Encore or OTS for going to Swoop, respectfully, both the WJ MEC and Encore MEC and most of the mainline pilots that I've spoken with don't share your thoughts. While it is different now that Swoop is considered single employer with WestJet, the general thought is that is Swoop can't attract enough qualified candidates they'll have to improve the conditions at Swoop.

Cheers
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Biff
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Re: One list

Post by Biff »

JBI wrote: Sun May 05, 2019 5:27 pm
Hi Biff,

Thanks for your comment. While I generally share your thoughts and won't judge a pilot Encore or OTS for going to Swoop, respectfully, both the WJ MEC and Encore MEC and most of the mainline pilots that I've spoken with don't share your thoughts. While it is different now that Swoop is considered single employer with WestJet, the general thought is that is Swoop can't attract enough qualified candidates they'll have to improve the conditions at Swoop.

Cheers
Really? I have no idea what the Encore MEC is saying to the Encore pilots but I haven’t read or heard of the WJ MEC discouraging Encore or WJ pilots to apply to Swoop.
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DropTanks
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Re: One list

Post by DropTanks »

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Last edited by DropTanks on Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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