Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

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schnitzel2k3
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

altiplano wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:25 am schnitzel:

What's sad is that this is a recurring theme from you, and you don't seem to get it... we've had this discussion before... it takes the whole industry to make gains. 1 group can't do it alone.
Yes we have, and it's because you and many people like you don't get it. It takes the leading pilot group in Canada, in my opinion that would be the ACPA, to forge the way. You guys are the example to follow, stop pretending you aren't 'the force' holding airline wages back in Canada. You guys ABSOLUTELY are.

Unfortunately the way things are means that any airline I chose to start at in Canada, I have to deal with the same abysmal starting salaries you guys have agreed to because everyone is competing with Air Canada, and to do that they have to peg their salaries (costs) at or below ACs.

I have to keep touching on it, because I see the same ignorant posts from guys off flat pay that think 'well I went through it, the next guy can too, it's not that bad, hey just bid captain, yatayatayata, think about the end game....'.

I'll make you a deal altiplano, if you can make significant headway in the starting salaries on your next agreement and help raise the industry bar in Canada close or to the level that we are seeing in the U.S., I promise you will never hear from me on this topic ever again.

S.
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by altiplano »

Ignorant? Hardly. You are ignorant to the history and the way the labour landscape in this country had unfolded.

I never said that I went through flat pay and years of stagnation so others should.

We had TS and WS rates along with CARs work rules, and some other gems forced on us by an arbitrator so AC could be competitive in 2012, BECAUSE WE SAID NO.

We've spent the last 2 TAs trying to repair some of that, getting years of service back on upgrades at Rouge, getting a pension back for our new hires, trying to fix the CARs work rules at the LCC, etc... and those were big... some guys saw $20-30K gains on YOS alone, plus lifelong guaranteed 6 figure pensions? that's a big item. And we lost those things because other Canadian comparators airlines don't have them.

First 4 years, (all levels) yeah it's not where we should be... I want to see it gone, and I explained where and how it came to be... but still overall as far as career earning potential and benefits, AC is out in front in this country. It's not even close.

What pension do the other airlines in Canada have?
None.
Are their work rules better then ours?
No.
Are their rates higher than ours?
No.

How many came here from other airlines just last month? Let alone over the past year... Westjet, Sunwing, Transat, Cathay, Qatar, and other top paying expat airlines... every course is like that... Seems guys are seeing where the potential is today in this country... where the leading contract is.

Don't get me wrong, I really want to see gains here, I think our group has made crucial mistakes and our leadership has been weak, if not complicit in underselling us, AC Pilots have their problems, but it's not the only problem in this country.

Look at how US Pilots make gains, 1 after another, pattern bargaining.
AA gets to #1, UA is next and they beat that, then comes DLT not to be outdone and they get a raise our of contract to make sure they're #1 now... meanwhile JBL, AKA, ALG, SPT etc are bleeding pilots to the Majors so they get right up there too, SWA also keeps pumping along at the same rates as the top drivers in the country... SWA, isn't that what WS is modelled on? Why can't they march those rates and work conditions?

They all push each other up. It's everyone's responsibility to make gains and lift the profession. That's what has to happen here.

AC led North American carriers in pay levels in 2003... ABYSMALLY we haven't been able to make significant gains since, and went backwards a couple times... and still we lead all Canadian airlines today... what were Westjet and C3 and Transat guys doing those years... none of them were catching up... how many consecutive quarters of profitability at Westjet? and they can't get ahead of us? do you remember C3 340 pay? it was lower than AC RJs... Transat widebodies are paid lower than our narrowbodies... and meanwhile we continue to stagnate with downward pressure because of these low cost bottom feeders springing up... Jetsgo, Flair, Swoop...

That's what holds us back.

That's what keeps wages low... how can you make gains when no other national comparators are even close...

Can't make gains when guys have a chip on their shoulders about one company or another, or are too busy being a company guy, keeping it going at all costs... too weak to say no, whether that means shutting it down and setting the brake at contract duty time or 14 hours, or using your sick days when you have to, or not answering your phone on a day off.. that's a big one...

How many guys are working as much OT as they can? 16+ or 20+, days to brag about their T4? That's the problem, and it's a big one. More work isn't a raise and it hurts your position, and your profession.

Used to be we bragged how little we worked to bring in $250K or whatever. We need to get back to that.
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by Inverted2 »

It ain't gonna change any time soon folks. Air Canada still has a huge stack of applicants with experience dying to get on, and they have their puppy mill (Jazz) giving them a for now endless supply of 2000 hour first officers.

Sure they could up the pay to be nice but why would they? If they cut pay by 20% tomorrow they would still be flush with applicants. Supply and demand.
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by Victory »

It's lip service. They say they want to see it gone but there are other things they would rather have. As soon as you are out of 4 year pay it's not an issue and shouldn't others pay their dues like you did?
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by TheSocialChameleon »

Questions for those who work at AC:

What’s the current upgrade time frame?
What is the base salary for a Captain?
How long can you expect to be on reserve?
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by schnitzel2k3 »

altiplano wrote: Tue Apr 23, 2019 9:17 am Ignorant? Hardly. You are ignorant to the history and the way the labour landscape in this country had unfolded.

I never said that I went through flat pay and years of stagnation so others should.

We had TS and WS rates along with CARs work rules, and some other gems forced on us by an arbitrator so AC could be competitive in 2012, BECAUSE WE SAID NO.

We've spent the last 2 TAs trying to repair some of that, getting years of service back on upgrades at Rouge, getting a pension back for our new hires, trying to fix the CARs work rules at the LCC, etc... and those were big... some guys saw $20-30K gains on YOS alone, plus lifelong guaranteed 6 figure pensions? that's a big item. And we lost those things because other Canadian comparators airlines don't have them.

First 4 years, (all levels) yeah it's not where we should be... I want to see it gone, and I explained where and how it came to be... but still overall as far as career earning potential and benefits, AC is out in front in this country. It's not even close.

What pension do the other airlines in Canada have?
None.
Are their work rules better then ours?
No.
Are their rates higher than ours?
No.

How many came here from other airlines just last month? Let alone over the past year... Westjet, Sunwing, Transat, Cathay, Qatar, and other top paying expat airlines... every course is like that... Seems guys are seeing where the potential is today in this country... where the leading contract is.

Don't get me wrong, I really want to see gains here, I think our group has made crucial mistakes and our leadership has been weak, if not complicit in underselling us, AC Pilots have their problems, but it's not the only problem in this country.

Look at how US Pilots make gains, 1 after another, pattern bargaining.
AA gets to #1, UA is next and they beat that, then comes DLT not to be outdone and they get a raise our of contract to make sure they're #1 now... meanwhile JBL, AKA, ALG, SPT etc are bleeding pilots to the Majors so they get right up there too, SWA also keeps pumping along at the same rates as the top drivers in the country... SWA, isn't that what WS is modelled on? Why can't they march those rates and work conditions?

They all push each other up. It's everyone's responsibility to make gains and lift the profession. That's what has to happen here.

AC led North American carriers in pay levels in 2003... ABYSMALLY we haven't been able to make significant gains since, and went backwards a couple times... and still we lead all Canadian airlines today... what were Westjet and C3 and Transat guys doing those years... none of them were catching up... how many consecutive quarters of profitability at Westjet? and they can't get ahead of us? do you remember C3 340 pay? it was lower than AC RJs... Transat widebodies are paid lower than our narrowbodies... and meanwhile we continue to stagnate with downward pressure because of these low cost bottom feeders springing up... Jetsgo, Flair, Swoop...

That's what holds us back.

That's what keeps wages low... how can you make gains when no other national comparators are even close...

Can't make gains when guys have a chip on their shoulders about one company or another, or are too busy being a company guy, keeping it going at all costs... too weak to say no, whether that means shutting it down and setting the brake at contract duty time or 14 hours, or using your sick days when you have to, or not answering your phone on a day off.. that's a big one...

How many guys are working as much OT as they can? 16+ or 20+, days to brag about their T4? That's the problem, and it's a big one. More work isn't a raise and it hurts your position, and your profession.

Used to be we bragged how little we worked to bring in $250K or whatever. We need to get back to that.
And I want to see you guys back at that level.

Good luck altiplano going forward, you guys are going to need it.

S.
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by cloak »

altiplano, thanks for the explanation of the recent events, although it is no justification for four years of flat (probationary) pay. Air Canada corporate has been two steps ahead of ACPA all the way. And I agree that Air Canada wages set the standard that other airlines follow. It is not the other way around. So instead of going to WestJet AGM, open an "information booth" at Air Canada AGM to educate the shareholders and bear pressure on Air Canada corporate. Maybe then Air Canada wages will rise to its competitors levels in the U.S and the rest of Canada will follow.
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by yycflyguy »

FWIW - Our VP Flight Ops was very vocal about the need to have PIT (Pilot Introduction Training) classes of 40 for the foreseeable future. I see in his latest update that he congratulated 65 new hires on the last two courses. I'm no math major but that looks like 15 no shows/deferrals. Almost 20% less than needed. I don't think new hires are being incentivized into joining 4 years of flat pay.
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by altiplano »

yycflyguy wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:57 am FWIW - Our VP Flight Ops was very vocal about the need to have PIT (Pilot Introduction Training) classes of 40 for the foreseeable future. I see in his latest update that he congratulated 65 new hires on the last two courses. I'm no math major but that looks like 15 no shows/deferrals. Almost 20% less than needed. I don't think new hires are being incentivized into joining 4 years of flat pay.
Maybe due reduced training capacity from 737 courses cancelled? Lots of new hires going on the 737.
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by yycflyguy »

altiplano wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:02 pm
yycflyguy wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:57 am FWIW - Our VP Flight Ops was very vocal about the need to have PIT (Pilot Introduction Training) classes of 40 for the foreseeable future. I see in his latest update that he congratulated 65 new hires on the last two courses. I'm no math major but that looks like 15 no shows/deferrals. Almost 20% less than needed. I don't think new hires are being incentivized into joining 4 years of flat pay.
Maybe due reduced training capacity from 737 courses cancelled? Lots of new hires going on the 737.
Unless they changed how equipment was awarded, last day of PIT class had the names in the hat and then you got to "choose" equipment/position based on that order. I don't think they are exclusively hiring for the 737 at this point. I think they are seeing no-shows and nobody wants to admit it.
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by Oxi »

judging by the last PIT course pilots they are no "no shows", I would say 99% that the April PIT 31 and May PITs of I think 26 and 25 are due to the 737 Max. August will be a big big system wide
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by altiplano »

yycflyguy wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:02 pm
altiplano wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:02 pm
yycflyguy wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:57 am FWIW - Our VP Flight Ops was very vocal about the need to have PIT (Pilot Introduction Training) classes of 40 for the foreseeable future. I see in his latest update that he congratulated 65 new hires on the last two courses. I'm no math major but that looks like 15 no shows/deferrals. Almost 20% less than needed. I don't think new hires are being incentivized into joining 4 years of flat pay.
Maybe due reduced training capacity from 737 courses cancelled? Lots of new hires going on the 737.
Unless they changed how equipment was awarded, last day of PIT class had the names in the hat and then you got to "choose" equipment/position based on that order. I don't think they are exclusively hiring for the 737 at this point. I think they are seeing no-shows and nobody wants to admit it.
It's possible guys are no-showing,

But what I meant is the training department on all types can only handle so many course starts in the 3 or 4 weeks after the PIT course finishes.

Since there are no 737 courses to run that number is reduced... Why bring guys on if your sims and instructors are already at capacity so they just reduce the overall new hire intake by 6 or 8 or whatever the 737 was going to accommodate, otherwise maybe guys would be waiting around 5 or 6 weeks or more to start 320 or RP training or whatever...

I'm just guessing... but it seems likely... we're still hundreds short...
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by cloudskimmer »

yycflyguy wrote: Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:57 am FWIW - Our VP Flight Ops was very vocal about the need to have PIT (Pilot Introduction Training) classes of 40 for the foreseeable future. I see in his latest update that he congratulated 65 new hires on the last two courses. I'm no math major but that looks like 15 no shows/deferrals. Almost 20% less than needed. I don't think new hires are being incentivized into joining 4 years of flat pay.
I believe he said in one of his newsletters a few months back that the plan was to hire 30-40 every three weeks until June and then classes of 40 every 2 weeks. So I don’t think there are may no-shows, if any, based on the last few courses. That forecast was also before the 737 MAX grounding so not sure if the plans are changing.
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by Stu Pidasso »

The piece you don't understand Schnitzel, is the low starting pay has nothing to do with Air Canada (The Corporation) and everything to do with ACPA. The company could care less if the 4000 Pilots were all paid exactly the same, all that matters to them is the cost of the entire Pilot payroll.

It is up to the Union to decide how they want it distributed.


At a recent meeting the CEO stated that the top Captain earned 450K and the top FO 350K, after some guy was beaking off about the lousy pay. He was told to go apply to the M-Rats. Now If it was up to me, no Pilot would ever earn less than the person delivering you your coffee, or the one loading the baggage. In todays dollars I would say starting pay should be at 100K, giving consideration to the level of investment in the career. The reason why it is so poor for the first four years is a long complicated discussion about Union bargaining.

The difference between a Corporate Pilot career and an AC one are not even in the same league, but we all make our own choices.
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by cloak »

Stu Pidasso wrote: Sat May 04, 2019 8:53 am The piece you don't understand Schnitzel, is the low starting pay has nothing to do with Air Canada (The Corporation) and everything to do with ACPA. The company could care less if the 4000 Pilots were all paid exactly the same, all that matters to them is the cost of the entire Pilot payroll.

It is up to the Union to decide how they want it distributed.


At a recent meeting the CEO stated that the top Captain earned 450K and the top FO 350K, after some guy was beaking off about the lousy pay. He was told to go apply to the M-Rats. Now If it was up to me, no Pilot would ever earn less than the person delivering you your coffee, or the one loading the baggage. In todays dollars I would say starting pay should be at 100K, giving consideration to the level of investment in the career. The reason why it is so poor for the first four years is a long complicated discussion about Union bargaining.

The difference between a Corporate Pilot career and an AC one are not even in the same league, but we all make our own choices.
Very well put, the starting pay should be around 100K. There should be greater "value" for the years of experience a pilot brings to Air Canada upon joining. At the moment its only "value" is to get a pilot an interview! Even worse, there is no distinction between different levels of experience. This is due to the way pilot unions are set-up that don't treat piloting jobs as "professional" jobs. Although during negotiations unions compare pilots with other professionals like nurses, doctors and lawyers, they behave like factory workers and often new recruits, who don't have a voice, are sacrificed.
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by Daniel Cooper »

I wonder if part of the problem is the people making these decisions were hired at 18 and sat sideways on the DC-8 for years. Now people being hired are often 30+, are 737 Captains, and are going right seat wide-body. It's not exactly the way it used to be.
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by Stu Pidasso »

Considering we are close to D.E.C. positions, I bet that Management wishes they were paying 100K to start. They could attract (home) some of highly experienced ex-Pats flying for Cathay and Emirates. The existing Pilot Shortage and more importantly experience shortage is keeping our Flt Ops Management awake at night.


Maybe "signing bonuses" would be an good end run around ACPA?
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by altiplano »

You couldn't do signing bonuses outside the collective agreement... it would take agreement from ACPA.

But you're right that's exactly the type of thing that the company would like us to agree to - one time payments... and it sounds good on the surface, but it's a mistake. We would be better and want an increase in pay in the contract - that stays into the future and raises build on that... the one time payment? As quickly as it comes, it's gone and you are still left with the lower salary.

There was a similar issue at Horizon a couple years back - signing bonuses to attract new recruits - the Union threatened to strike and sued the company.

“Short-sighted maneuvers won’t solve the staffing problem, and as our airline continues to ground flights, the real victims will be the passengers, customers, and communities in the Pacific Northwest that rely on Horizon Air for their livelihood,” said Capt. Jeff Cox, a Horizon pilot and executive council chairman of APA Teamsters Local 1224, in a news release. “A one-time payment to new recruits does nothing to address the pilot retention issues at Horizon Air that are already jeopardizing service.”


https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/new ... trike.html

Also, you're right that the company says: "there's only so much, you guys split it up how you see fit"... and that's the problem... time for the company to get a bigger pot.

As much as new hires are underpaid, so is every other position at this airline. Our Captains, particularly NB, significantly lag other legacy North American and European airlines, our FOs are a substandard ratio of that already substandard Captain pay, and we have RPs where we should have Captains and FOs on LH/ULH routes.

Too many of us though, just happy to be here, happy to be flying a new jet, happy to go with the flow... that's at every airline in this country AFAIC. esp. the new ULCC operators they had to dredge the ditch to get the pay down too... We might lead the pack in Canada, but it's like being King of the Idiots...
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by ogopogo »

At a recent meeting the CEO stated that the top Captain earned 450K

Wow, how is that even possible?
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Re: Record revenues vs 4 year flat pay

Post by tbaylx »

ogopogo wrote: Sun May 05, 2019 6:19 am At a recent meeting the CEO stated that the top Captain earned 450K

Wow, how is that even possible?
That's not a stretch for top guys doing some overtime. Sunwing has guys approaching that number as well, probably Westjet too. I don't think anyone is arguing the top level pay is inadequate. It takes working on a bunch of your time off, and half of that goes away to fund whatever it is our government spends our taxes on this week.

Like mentioned above the issue is trying to attract older experienced captains with the current entry pay structure. If flight ops has issues with overall new hire experience levels the solution is simple.
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