Do you check your killer items just prior to takeoff?

[digits_]

Xander, why APU off?

Because in most cases (99% of the time, unless one of the engine bleeds is MEL’d) it’s not necessary for takeoff.

Furthermore, there is an altitude limitation for running the APU (33000’ on my aircraft) and if you run the APu above that, you will get an « APU EXEEDANCE » Eicas message.

Also it burns fuel for no reason.

So translation: nothing will really happen if you forget about it on takeoff?

[Xander]

Xander, why APU off?

Because in most cases (99% of the time, unless one of the engine bleeds is MEL’d) it’s not necessary for takeoff.

Furthermore, there is an altitude limitation for running the APU (33000’ on my aircraft) and if you run the APu above that, you will get an « APU EXEEDANCE » Eicas message.

Also it burns fuel for no reason.

So translation: nothing will really happen if you forget about it on takeoff?

If possibly exceeding the aircraft’s limitations is nothing for you, then yeah.

[goingnowherefast]

Taking off with the apu running won't kill you in your aircraft type. It's not a killer item. I'll use the Navajo as an example, takeoff with the outboard tanks selected could put you in the trees at the end of the runway. It will kill you.

[digits_]

Taking off with the apu running won't kill you in your aircraft type. It's not a killer item. I'll use the Navajo as an example, takeoff with the outboard tanks selected could put you in the trees at the end of the runway. It will kill you.

Thank you.


To answer the original question: I don't check anything extra in airplanes where the checklist has to be used. Follow the checklist. If you follow the checklist and then do your own killer item checklist, you won't be paying attention to the real checklist too much, since you'll subconciously think "I do my own checklist anyway". If you miss items on a checklist that often, then something is seriously wrong with either your SOPs, CRM procedures or checklist.

It's like people who do their own extra "gear down 3 green" check on short final, 10 seconds after the company checklist called for that anyway

[Xander]

Taking off with the apu running won't kill you in your aircraft type. It's not a killer item. I'll use the Navajo as an example, takeoff with the outboard tanks selected could put you in the trees at the end of the runway. It will kill you.

Yeah?

It’s definitely an undesired aircraft state.

Which have been contributing factors in many aircraft accidents throughout history.

Who knows? You might overload the APU gen because you forgot it. It might catch fire. You may be unable to extinguish it. It might kill you on a very bad day.

Furthermore, I doubt OP meant something that might literally kill you. My interpretation of the question was more along the lines of:

« What items do you double check before takeoff ».

That’s the way I read it anyway.

[C.W.E.]

It's like people who do their own extra "gear down 3 green" check on short final,

I always do a short final check for landing to confirm I have the correct gear position.

It is.

" Where am I landing and where is my gear. "

It has saved me landing with the wrong gear position twice.

[Schooner69A]

Place me in the "Gear in the green" camp on short final.

Years ago, doing multiple closed patterns in a T-33, a friend of mine landed with the wheels securely tucked in the wells. When later asked what had happened, my friend didn't sugar coat it: "I guess I forgot to put them down..." Saved a lot of investigation time.

On the T-bird, gear was dropped opposite the button and upon receiving the "3 green" indication, the landing gear handle was given a "shake" test to ensure it was where it was supposed to be. Something interrupted this sequence with predictable results. (In your mind, when you're convinced you've done something, it takes a two times four upside the head to change that conviction...) (;>0)

A final check on short final would have caught the error.

[Joe Blow Schmo]

Just before takeoff I recheck the Takeoff performance. That’s in addition to the 5+ times it gets checked or cross checked in the SOPs. Just one final check to make sure we’re not 100 tonnes out. It wouldn’t be the first time that happened if we were. Also recheck gear and flaps on short final despite the airplane telling me they’re down.

[goingnowherefast]

Taking off with the apu running won't kill you in your aircraft type. It's not a killer item. I'll use the Navajo as an example, takeoff with the outboard tanks selected could put you in the trees at the end of the runway. It will kill you.

Yeah?

It’s definitely an undesired aircraft state.

Which have been contributing factors in many aircraft accidents throughout history.

Who knows? You might overload the APU gen because you forgot it. It might catch fire. You may be unable to extinguish it. It might kill you on a very bad day.

Furthermore, I doubt OP meant something that might literally kill you. My interpretation of the question was more along the lines of:

« What items do you double check before takeoff ».

That’s the way I read it anyway.

Right in the first post, the OP uses the example of a home built taking off with the fuel selector in the off position. That's a pretty big killer item. You've got 33000' to notice the APU is running before it even warns you that it's on, and can still turn it off. If it's something you personally check, then it's probably a good idea, but don't pretend it's a killer item.

I usually look for weak spots in the aircraft design, SOPs and checklists. If there's something I don't like, I'll add a personal "double check". Could be the APU if the SOPs and company checklists are inadequate to prevent what you describe. Not necessarily killer items, but an error regardless. My current aircraft type and SOPs are quite good and catching anything close to a killer item. From the flows, to checklist and various aircraft warning systems, they're covered multiple times.

[5x5]

Much of this sounds a bit like having checklists to check the checklists. If there really are items you need to have an internal checklist to cover (not things you do just for your own peace of mind) then shouldn't you be reporting it to the company you work for or the people who own the aircraft you're flying and get the checklists revised? If it's something you actually need to do, then shouldn't it also be needed by anyone else in that aircraft?

[AirFrame]

Since i've just done a runup before takeoff, I expect the critical things are already checked... It runs, it runs at elevated power setting, mixture can shut the engine off, flaps set for t/o, etc.

Last check before rolling out is BBBD, Belts (on and tight) Baggage (secured) Brakes (work) Doors (closed and locked), a final check that they're all where they should be. After that, I recite the two takeoff emergency mnemonics to try and have them ready in my mind if needed:

EFOTO:TSB - Engine Failure On Take Off - Throttle back, Stick back, Brake to a stop

EFATO:SLAM - Engine Failure After Take Off - Straight ahead, Level wings, Airspeed (to best glide), Mayday

[Xander]

Taking off with the apu running won't kill you in your aircraft type. It's not a killer item. I'll use the Navajo as an example, takeoff with the outboard tanks selected could put you in the trees at the end of the runway. It will kill you.

Yeah?

It’s definitely an undesired aircraft state.

Which have been contributing factors in many aircraft accidents throughout history.

Who knows? You might overload the APU gen because you forgot it. It might catch fire. You may be unable to extinguish it. It might kill you on a very bad day.

Furthermore, I doubt OP meant something that might literally kill you. My interpretation of the question was more along the lines of:

« What items do you double check before takeoff ».

That’s the way I read it anyway.

Right in the first post, the OP uses the example of a home built taking off with the fuel selector in the off position. That's a pretty big killer item. You've got 33000' to notice the APU is running before it even warns you that it's on, and can still turn it off. If it's something you personally check, then it's probably a good idea, but don't pretend it's a killer item.

I usually look for weak spots in the aircraft design, SOPs and checklists. If there's something I don't like, I'll add a personal "double check". Could be the APU if the SOPs and company checklists are inadequate to prevent what you describe. Not necessarily killer items, but an error regardless. My current aircraft type and SOPs are quite good and catching anything close to a killer item. From the flows, to checklist and various aircraft warning systems, they're covered multiple times.

Still an undesired aircraft state. A mild one i'll give you that, much less critical than a fuel selector.

Forgetting the APU would have a nasty little effect of not decluttering the EICAS, thus possibly reducing situational awareness. I would argue that on a bad day it could be fatal. That's serious enough for my list.

The question was: Do you check your killer items just prior to takeoff. It's subjective by nature.

If you don't feel like checking that particular item, then so be it, we'll just have to agree to disagree. For me it's justified and will continue to be.

Fly safe.

[Illya Kuryakin]

I just call "Release the hounds" and hope she flies.
Illya

[pelmet]

Another guy who crashed because he didn't check his killer items just before takeoff. If he had taken several seconds, he would have almost certainly have discovered that he forgot to do any checks/checklist at all due to distractions. In this case, it was combined with the fact that he had made an fuel transfer selection on the ground and forgotten about it.

Start at 9:20 of the the video for the cause discussion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJrVUZKcxrU

Check your killer items just before takeoff.

[radarvectors]

How about a double check for the runway you're lining up on? There have been numerous cases, especially the old war (triangle) configuration of runways with shared thresholds, that have been problematic to say the least.

Someone once told me, and I will never forget it-"the red handles will hurt you, the white handles will kill you". Lots of checks for the red but the white is a lot more common and can get missed more often in my opinion.

If the spidey sense is tingling, they are my first place to look.

[pelmet]

How about a double check for the runway you're lining up on? There have been numerous cases, especially the old war (triangle) configuration of runways with shared thresholds, that have been problematic to say the least.

It is a good idea. The actual procedure can vary by type of aircraft and operation. To show one example.........where I have been working, it is the last item on the Before Takeoff Checklist. With a full crew on board for a long flight, it would sound like this....

PM: "Departure Runway"
PF: "Runway 05 right verified"
PM: "Runway 05 right verified"
CM3: "Runway 05 right verified"
CM4: "Runway 05 right verified"
PM: "Before Takeoff Checklist complete"
PF: "Checklist complete"

The question is, how and what do you verify. It could be the runway sign at the runway entrance, the number on the runway, or the localizer which has been tuned if it is low vis operations. But I also like to look at the navigation display in addition to the runway prior to responding and see that the proper runway number is showing. Some guys have taken off with the wrong runway in the FMC(typically the parallel one) which causes issues as well.

Admittedly, it has been much less disciplined in general aviation.

[pelmet]

"C-GDON, a Cessna 172K aircraft operated by Insignia College, was on the first take-off for circuits
at Boundary Bay Airport (CZBB), BC with one student pilot on board. The student took off from
Runway 07 and during the climb realized the aircraft airspeed was decreasing. As the aircraft was
nearing a stall at 300 feet AGL, the pilot regained control by lowering the nose to keep speed up.
The pilot declared a MAYDAY and ATC gave the pilot the option of "any runway". Other traffic was
cleared to allow GDON runway access. The pilot managed to make a 180 degree turn to land on
Runway 25 without further issues. After landing, the pilot realized she had set "full flaps" and did
not set them for take-off prior to departure, as required in the pre-flight checklist. Ground taxi
clearances were obtained and the aircraft taxied back to the company facility."


Perhaps the student(or instructor) was influenced by the line of thinking in a similar recent discussion linked below. Taking ten seconds to double check certain killer items by memory just before taking the runway can save your life.

viewtopic.php?p=1103059#p1103059

[photofly]

I’ve been party to countless takeoffs in a 172 with full flaps. Well, perhaps not countless, but several. So I suspect have many people here. The guilty party usually works it out by the time they reach the downwind, if not earlier. It has never occurred to me to declare a MAYDAY.

If a pretakeoff checklist for Boeing 737 has seven items on it, how long does it need to be for a Cessna 172? Ten seconds is an awfully long time to run a checklist of reasonable length - so the appropriate thing is to use the checklist, which is your “killer items” list, anyway.

[pelmet]

I’ve been party to countless takeoffs in a 172 with full flaps. Well, perhaps not countless, but several. So I suspect have many people here. The guilty party usually works it out by the time they reach the downwind, if not earlier. It has never occurred to me to declare a MAYDAY.

If a pretakeoff checklist for Boeing 737 has seven items on it, how long does it need to be for a Cessna 172? Ten seconds is an awfully long time to run a checklist of reasonable length - so the appropriate thing is to use the checklist, which is your “killer items” list, anyway.

Obviously, once again, as has no doubt been seen in hundreds of crashes and near crashes over the years, the idea that using the checklist will always prevent an accident does not work. Items get skipped or not properly followed through. Sometimes they are killer items(as I call them) It is a nice thought to think that checklist use is foolproof for getting all the important items set properly, except, I keep coming up with example after example where it didn't work. But my technique as an add-on, will never cause harm and on rare occasion will prevent an accident.

Not sure why you have been 'party to countless takeoffs in a 172 with full flaps'. Is there a particular reason why this has happened to you so often. It can be quite dangerous, depending on circumstances, especially on a version having 40° flaps like the K model in this incident. I doubt that many people here have been party to 'countless takeoffs in a 172 with full flaps' as you suggest. I certainly have never done it, not even once.

[photofly]

I’ve been party to countless takeoffs in a 172 with full flaps. Well, perhaps not countless, but several. So I suspect have many people here. The guilty party usually works it out by the time they reach the downwind, if not earlier. It has never occurred to me to declare a MAYDAY.

If a pretakeoff checklist for Boeing 737 has seven items on it, how long does it need to be for a Cessna 172? Ten seconds is an awfully long time to run a checklist of reasonable length - so the appropriate thing is to use the checklist, which is your “killer items” list, anyway.

Not sure why you have been 'party to countless takeoffs in a 172 with full flaps'. Is there a particular reason for this, especially with a version having 40° flaps like the K model in this incident. I doubt that many people here have been party to 'countless takeoffs in a 172 with full flaps' as you suggest. I certainly have never done it, not even once.

You should know from practicing a go-around with 40 flap that a 172 will climb well enough. Perhaps not at maximum weight, but certainly two-up. Typically it happens on a touch and go when someone mis-sequences the flaps and power and gets airborne with the flaps still extended. Safer at that point to climb away, rather than retract them at low level and risk sinking. Once you’re climbing you might as well leave things unsaid and see when they work it out: Why is the plane climbing with such a nose-low attitude, and why won’t it accelerate past 80 knots.... oh wait, I get it...
Sometimes people don’t work it out up until they reach for the flaps to set up for landing.

It’s not entirely valueless, as an exercise: it’s possible someone will have to go around with the flaps stuck at 40.

[ant_321]

I’ve been party to countless takeoffs in a 172 with full flaps. Well, perhaps not countless, but several. So I suspect have many people here. The guilty party usually works it out by the time they reach the downwind, if not earlier. It has never occurred to me to declare a MAYDAY.

If a pretakeoff checklist for Boeing 737 has seven items on it, how long does it need to be for a Cessna 172? Ten seconds is an awfully long time to run a checklist of reasonable length - so the appropriate thing is to use the checklist, which is your “killer items” list, anyway.

If using the Boeing SOP’s the 737 before take off checklist is 2 items. Flaps and stabilizer trim.

[pelmet]

I’ve been party to countless takeoffs in a 172 with full flaps. Well, perhaps not countless, but several. So I suspect have many people here. The guilty party usually works it out by the time they reach the downwind, if not earlier. It has never occurred to me to declare a MAYDAY.

If a pretakeoff checklist for Boeing 737 has seven items on it, how long does it need to be for a Cessna 172? Ten seconds is an awfully long time to run a checklist of reasonable length - so the appropriate thing is to use the checklist, which is your “killer items” list, anyway.

Not sure why you have been 'party to countless takeoffs in a 172 with full flaps'. Is there a particular reason for this, especially with a version having 40° flaps like the K model in this incident. I doubt that many people here have been party to 'countless takeoffs in a 172 with full flaps' as you suggest. I certainly have never done it, not even once.

You should know from practicing a go-around with 40 flap that a 172 will climb well enough. Perhaps not at maximum weight, but certainly two-up. Typically it happens on a touch and go when someone mis-sequences the flaps and power and gets airborne with the flaps still extended. Safer at that point to climb away, rather than retract them at low level and risk sinking.

I guess it all depends on density altitude and weight. I typically get an instructor to retract the flaps when I do touch and go's, especially if in a retractable gear aircraft.

Anyways, the bottom line is that there have been plenty of accidents on takeoff with flaps fully extended. Check your killer items before taking the runway for departure, it would have saved this student from experiencing a near stall.

[pelmet]

I’ve been party to countless takeoffs in a 172 with full flaps. Well, perhaps not countless, but several. So I suspect have many people here. The guilty party usually works it out by the time they reach the downwind, if not earlier. It has never occurred to me to declare a MAYDAY.

If a pretakeoff checklist for Boeing 737 has seven items on it, how long does it need to be for a Cessna 172? Ten seconds is an awfully long time to run a checklist of reasonable length - so the appropriate thing is to use the checklist, which is your “killer items” list, anyway.

If using the Boeing SOP’s the 737 before take off checklist is 2 items. Flaps and stabilizer trim.

Must be the new ones. The old ones seemed to have more.

[photofly]

In this latest example, if the plane got to 300 feet, it was clearly capable of climbing: if not, it would never have got out of ground effect. Why didn’t the instructor just select an appropriate pitch attitude, raise the flaps and continue the climb?

I typically get an instructor to retract the flaps when I do touch and go's, especially if in a retractable gear aircraft.

who retracts the flaps if there’s no instructor on board? Or are touch and go’s considered too advanced for student pilots?

Anyways, the bottom line is that there have been plenty of accidents on takeoff with flaps fully extended

Can you find some? That would be interesting reading.

[pelmet]

In this latest example, if the plane got to 300 feet, it was clearly capable of climbing: if not, it would never have got out of ground effect. Why didn’t the instructor just select an appropriate pitch attitude, raise the flaps and continue the climb?

I typically get an instructor to retract the flaps when I do touch and go's, especially if in a retractable gear aircraft.

who retracts the flaps if there’s no instructor on board? Or are touch and go’s considered too advanced for student pilots?

Anyways, the bottom line is that there have been plenty of accidents on takeoff with flaps fully extended

Can you find some? That would be interesting reading.

Here is some interesting reading.

Check your killer items. It would have saved this guy's life.

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Repor ... l&IType=FA