How is this happening that most float operators are requesting that applicants have 1000 or even 2000 hrs. For god sakes pretty soon they'll be looking for A320 experience to fly a beaver. AC mins are 1000.
and thats what I have to say about that,
Float Requirements Higher than Air Canada
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Dust Devil
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Scuba_Steve
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just curious
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AirCanada is paying a premium on having "low timers(as you put it)" fly their planes...
The float guys CAN get insurance for their birds for the low timers but why when they'd have to pay twice as much for it?
Why not ask for the most amount of hours possible so they can pay the least amount of coin for insurance?
The float guys CAN get insurance for their birds for the low timers but why when they'd have to pay twice as much for it?
Why not ask for the most amount of hours possible so they can pay the least amount of coin for insurance?
How many 1000 hr pilots do you think will be handling the controls of an Air Canada flight during take-off or landing???? Let alone being the PIC???
My guess would be none... with that time they would most likely be cruisers...
There's a big difference in responsibility between a cruiser, or even an F/O and being the PIC of a Beaver. Plus, all the insurance company sees is that all 6 pax in your -2 are millionares..
My guess would be none... with that time they would most likely be cruisers...
There's a big difference in responsibility between a cruiser, or even an F/O and being the PIC of a Beaver. Plus, all the insurance company sees is that all 6 pax in your -2 are millionares..
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wallypilot
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some guys think this industry is so linear. it seems they think that from small plane to big plane, the requirements are low time to high time. But it's not. Far from it. It depends on the type of work. Realistically, RP for big red doesn't require any experience. Do the type rating and all that good training, and you are set. On the other hand, PIC beaver on the coast of BC or NW ontario requires experience and skills that can only be gained with time working in that type of job. the type of a/c isn't necessarily the point here...it's flying up narrow inlets with 20G30 4SM 005 OVC -RA and knowing that you could safely continue, or it's time to turn around.
Or flying for Keystone and knowing that you shouldn't go, because you don't have enough fuel to your destination??equires experience and skills that can only be gained with time working in that type of job..... knowing that you could safely continue, or it's time to turn around.
Before to many of you get caught up in the "need lots of time in order to satisfy the insurance company" one needs to look at who is having the accidents in the bush.
I am not sure of when the last time I heard of a low time pilot crashing a commercial float plane. Seems to me that it is the high time guys who are causing all the carnage yet it is the low timers that are paying the price!
I am not sure of when the last time I heard of a low time pilot crashing a commercial float plane. Seems to me that it is the high time guys who are causing all the carnage yet it is the low timers that are paying the price!
You Can Love An Airplane All You Want, But Remember, It Will Never Love You Back!
The float guys CAN get insurance for their birds for the low timers but why when they'd have to pay twice as much for it?
I dont think that is the case. I dont think an insurance company will offer an open pilot clause to any company anymore....maybe if the company has a good record and has been around for a while they'd offer it, but the insurance companies simply wont approve a pilot without the experience they want. thats been my experience, anyways.
What would they say if it was an 8,000 hour guy who did it. It's not like guys with that kind of time or more haven't done the same thing. Someone should actually take a long hard look at how much damage the so called experienced guys have caused in the last few years.
I say blaming the newbies is unfair because it isn't them ringing up the insurance claims!
I say blaming the newbies is unfair because it isn't them ringing up the insurance claims!
You Can Love An Airplane All You Want, But Remember, It Will Never Love You Back!
Most, if not all the accidents I've seen and heard of have been from mid time pilots.
I remember reading a breakdown of the exact points at which pilots were most likely to have accidents at..
#1 on the list was the 2000hr mark
#2 3500hr
amazingly this is right where most companies like to hire...
Enough experience and time to start becoming complacent maybe?
The 500hr mark was right at the bottom of the list.
I can't say much though.. I've only got 250hrs
I remember reading a breakdown of the exact points at which pilots were most likely to have accidents at..
#1 on the list was the 2000hr mark
#2 3500hr
amazingly this is right where most companies like to hire...
Enough experience and time to start becoming complacent maybe?
The 500hr mark was right at the bottom of the list.
I can't say much though.. I've only got 250hrs
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Dust Devil
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I have an open pilot clause which states 3000TT 1000 multi.185_guy wrote:The float guys CAN get insurance for their birds for the low timers but why when they'd have to pay twice as much for it?
I dont think that is the case. I dont think an insurance company will offer an open pilot clause to any company anymore....maybe if the company has a good record and has been around for a while they'd offer it, but the insurance companies simply wont approve a pilot without the experience they want. thats been my experience, anyways.
I've had guys approved with less. It all depends on how hard your broker goes to bat for you.
//=S=//
A parent's only as good as their dumbest kid. If one wins a Nobel Prize but the other gets robbed by a hooker, you failed
A parent's only as good as their dumbest kid. If one wins a Nobel Prize but the other gets robbed by a hooker, you failed
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sportingrifle
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Insurance premiums and low time pilots
The other (Sat afternoon)day I am on a ferry going through Active Pass on the west coast. Visability is less than 3/8 mile because the pass is 3/4 mile wide and I can't see either side of it. Out of the gloom comes a Beaver at 50'. Vanished several seconds later. Doubtless he had a dozen or so user defined waypoints in his gps that he was following. Hope he knew exactly when the ferries sailed. What a moron.
What makes an operation safe ends with the skill and experience of the pilot but starts with the owner, company culture, ops manager, etc. This is why relatively low time pilots can operate in a very structured environment. The insurance companies keep upping pilot requirements hoping that at some point they will have pilots flying the airplanes that will say No. If pilots are hard to find, said operators will no longer be able to say "fly it or I'll find somebody who will!" Last year there were 3 fatal floatplane accidents that claimed 13 lives. Given that the average insurance payout is about 2 mil/fatality plus the 3 aircraft, the insurance industry probably paid about 28 mil for those 3 accidents not counting all the other bent tin. That means that the industry has to recover about 30 mil a year in premiums form a couple dozen operators.
The ops mngr. of the company that sent the Beaver out last Saturday probably bitches and moans to all that will listen about insurance premiums and tells low time pilots that there is nothing he can do to help them, that's just the way it is.
What makes an operation safe ends with the skill and experience of the pilot but starts with the owner, company culture, ops manager, etc. This is why relatively low time pilots can operate in a very structured environment. The insurance companies keep upping pilot requirements hoping that at some point they will have pilots flying the airplanes that will say No. If pilots are hard to find, said operators will no longer be able to say "fly it or I'll find somebody who will!" Last year there were 3 fatal floatplane accidents that claimed 13 lives. Given that the average insurance payout is about 2 mil/fatality plus the 3 aircraft, the insurance industry probably paid about 28 mil for those 3 accidents not counting all the other bent tin. That means that the industry has to recover about 30 mil a year in premiums form a couple dozen operators.
The ops mngr. of the company that sent the Beaver out last Saturday probably bitches and moans to all that will listen about insurance premiums and tells low time pilots that there is nothing he can do to help them, that's just the way it is.
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Cat Driver
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" Out of the gloom comes a Beaver at 50'. Vanished several seconds later. Doubtless he had a dozen or so user defined waypoints in his gps that he was following. Hope he knew exactly when the ferries sailed. What a moron. "
It is unlikely that a pilot would be spending much time looking at a GPS flying at fifty feet and 3/8 ths of a mile.
What kills most of these guys is trying to fly contact in low vis and glassy water at low altitude, if the water surface is rough you usually don't fly into it.
However, you are right flying in those conditions and having accidents will just drive the insurance requirements up even higher.
Cat
It is unlikely that a pilot would be spending much time looking at a GPS flying at fifty feet and 3/8 ths of a mile.
What kills most of these guys is trying to fly contact in low vis and glassy water at low altitude, if the water surface is rough you usually don't fly into it.
However, you are right flying in those conditions and having accidents will just drive the insurance requirements up even higher.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Cat Driver
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Pinocchio:
Excellent post.
However TC could care less about what you or I may think.
The last thing TC wants is someone with more esperience than them teaching, they would lose their ability to keep the status quo in flight training.
Cat
Excellent post.
However TC could care less about what you or I may think.
The last thing TC wants is someone with more esperience than them teaching, they would lose their ability to keep the status quo in flight training.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
2) As a case in point in the reported accident, why did the float equipped C172 takeoff directly out over apparently “dry” terrain?? What happened to the concept of keeping water under or beside you by circling the lake until safe departure altitude is reached? Why did lesson #1 get left behind?? Was it ever taught?? Again, try this stunt with an experienced bush pilot/owner beside you and you’d be hiking down the road if not left in the bush.
I'd be interested to hear how many have been taught by said 'experienced bush pilot/owner' to circle the lake you just recently departed until a 'safe' departure altitude is reached. First of all what would be considered a safe altitude and in my case the point was mute as we were taught by the experienced guys to depart as close as possible into wind and turn for your destination having cleared the trees almost always over "dry" terrain or at least muskeg in NW Ontario. Other companies with -2's and -3's in the same area did the same thing and not once did I see an aircraft circling back to reach so called safe altitude...I would have been concerned if they did.
I'd be interested to hear how many have been taught by said 'experienced bush pilot/owner' to circle the lake you just recently departed until a 'safe' departure altitude is reached. First of all what would be considered a safe altitude and in my case the point was mute as we were taught by the experienced guys to depart as close as possible into wind and turn for your destination having cleared the trees almost always over "dry" terrain or at least muskeg in NW Ontario. Other companies with -2's and -3's in the same area did the same thing and not once did I see an aircraft circling back to reach so called safe altitude...I would have been concerned if they did.
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Cat Driver
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Pinocchio said:
" Obviously with the 3, you relinquish climb pushing the nose down to level flight on the cross wind slant and downwind (over or beside water) , however after the nose is back into wind, you’re afforded another great ramp up into wind over water.. "
Help me understand that bit I just highlighted.
Are you saying that your rate of climb goes to zero x/wind and down wind?
Are you saying that you have to wait until you are flying into wind again before your airplane will once again climb?
Cat
" Obviously with the 3, you relinquish climb pushing the nose down to level flight on the cross wind slant and downwind (over or beside water) , however after the nose is back into wind, you’re afforded another great ramp up into wind over water.. "
Help me understand that bit I just highlighted.
Are you saying that your rate of climb goes to zero x/wind and down wind?
Are you saying that you have to wait until you are flying into wind again before your airplane will once again climb?
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
