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Biff
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Re: One list

Post by Biff » Sat May 11, 2019 10:06 am

bob99 wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 9:18 am
JBI wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 8:52 am
Ex DC10 Driver wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 8:24 am
I disagree...still voting no!
Make WestJet Great Again! :lol:
They do sound like Trump supporters, don't they? And you can't reason with those people.

Thanks for screwing over your Encore brothers and sisters :roll:
We’re not “screwing over our Encore brothers and sisters”. We’re standing up for ourselves(and for our Encore brothers and sisters when they flow over). Don’t worry, a large percentage of our pilot group still wants some form of one list. The company wants some form of one list. We, the pilot group, will ensure that it gets revisited with better terms and conditions if this version is voted down(which I believe is unlikely).
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Biff
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Re: One list

Post by Biff » Sat May 11, 2019 10:08 am

sstaurus wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 9:38 am
Voting no will just make Swoop more attractive (if it could be at all). Instead of letting it fizzle out and squashing it like a bug, Swoop will grow to be a bigger thorn in your side. But I guess it's all about me me me again... unity can go fly a kite.
Who cares. Swoop is going to be crewed either with you guys or off the street. I’d rather you guys do it.
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flyinhigh
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Re: One list

Post by flyinhigh » Sat May 11, 2019 11:21 am

Biff wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 10:06 am
We’re not “screwing over our Encore brothers and sisters”. We’re standing up for ourselves(and for our Encore brothers and sisters when they flow over). Don’t worry, a large percentage of our pilot group still wants some form of one list. The company wants some form of one list. We, the pilot group, will ensure that it gets revisited with better terms and conditions if this version is voted down(which I believe is unlikely).
Sorry but you say you're not screwing over your Encore brothers and sisters, and in fact looking out for them. Yet, they were the ones that stood by you backing you every step of the way through the negotiations, bashed Swoop and have decided to NOT go there making Swoop choke. Now you feel that there is one thing that you can do to make the company come to the table to make you deal better, yet you already got everything in which you wanted during bargaining. By saying no to the list is exactly screwing the Encore pilots, and the pilots which have already flowed earlier in the year.

If the list is voted down, I would immediately call the Encore MEC and say I have a deal for you that you will not want to turn down and sweeten their pot. On the flip side, I would make the mainline pilots a living hell just to ensure the massive divide that was created stays exactly that.

Good Luck to the Encore pilots, as I feel you may need it.
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Biff
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Re: One list

Post by Biff » Sat May 11, 2019 11:37 am

flyinhigh wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 11:21 am
Biff wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 10:06 am
We’re not “screwing over our Encore brothers and sisters”. We’re standing up for ourselves(and for our Encore brothers and sisters when they flow over). Don’t worry, a large percentage of our pilot group still wants some form of one list. The company wants some form of one list. We, the pilot group, will ensure that it gets revisited with better terms and conditions if this version is voted down(which I believe is unlikely).
Sorry but you say you're not screwing over your Encore brothers and sisters, and in fact looking out for them. Yet, they were the ones that stood by you backing you every step of the way through the negotiations, bashed Swoop and have decided to NOT go there making Swoop choke. Now you feel that there is one thing that you can do to make the company come to the table to make you deal better, yet you already got everything in which you wanted during bargaining. By saying no to the list is exactly screwing the Encore pilots, and the pilots which have already flowed earlier in the year.

If the list is voted down, I would immediately call the Encore MEC and say I have a deal for you that you will not want to turn down and sweeten their pot. On the flip side, I would make the mainline pilots a living hell just to ensure the massive divide that was created stays exactly that.

Good Luck to the Encore pilots, as I feel you may need it.
The Encore pilots didn’t go to Swoop during the ALPA hiring ban. Thank you for respecting the hiring ban.

The hiring ban was removed months ago. I’ve heard of none of the MEC’s asking you still not to go to Swoop(please correct me if the Encore MEC has put out a memo requesting you still not go). With that in mind, if you want to go to Swoop, go to Swoop. No one cares! If none of the Encore pilots go Swoop WILL hire off the street. That would be worse. I can’t understand why you guys are still using the “we’ll go to Swoop” as a threat to mainline. If mainline pilots want it they will go. It seems opposite is happening.

As to your last point, what I would do, if I was you, is to wait.... If the LOA gets voted down(still a HUGE if), then rest assured, as I said before, the majority of mainline pilots want you included in a one list...just not this one. So wait and see what happens over the following months.

If that’s not good enough for you then by all means, throw a hissy fit and call your MEC and tell them that you’ll fly a 74 seat configured jet at Encore for nothing. That’s totally your right.

Oh and one other thing. Swoop isn’t having a crewing problem, it’s having a revenue problem.

And one, one other thing(probably the last😃), how would you go about making my life a living hell?
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JBI
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Re: One list

Post by JBI » Sat May 11, 2019 12:54 pm

Biff wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 11:37 am
I’ve heard of none of the MEC’s asking you still not to go to Swoop(please correct me if the Encore MEC has put out a memo requesting you still not go).
The Encore MEC has provided the information regarding Swoop however has indicated that it does not recommend Encore pilots going to Swoop due to the poor working conditions. It is generally believed that if Swoop is not able to recruit with the current conditions the company it will need to revisit the issue. The previous concern amongst Encore pilots was that despite the One List they would be forced to go to Swoop instead of mainline.

Based on my understanding of hiring trends in the Canadian Aviation Industry (again, I'm not an expert but have written a book on pilot careers and have spoken at various aviation career expos) I don't think Swoop will have too much of a problem recruiting for the initial 10 tails, but if they want to expand to 20 or 30 tails (which the Kaplan Award permits) they would have trouble recruiting at the current Wages and Working conditions.

While I'm obviously very much a proponent of voting "Yes" to the LOA, I personally have tried to be pragmatic and objective in my posts. However, I think the emotional responses that you're seeing from other Encore pilots is just a glimpse of the negative reaction mainline pilots will received from Encore pilots if the LOA fails.

Also, while I respect your position that you would attempt to renegotiate the one list, from someone who was involved with both the WJPA and was briefly an ALPA rep (before going on disability leave), I think you are significantly overestimating mainline's bargaining position vis a vis one list and the company. The company has NO obligation whatsoever to come back to the table to negotiate. The current LOA is something that was negotiated over the course of 6-8 months with 5 parties. Now that the company has a CA with both sets of pilots, I can't see them being in a hurry to renegotiate.

Honest question - what is it that you think voting No will improve at mainline?

In the other topic I've explained how mainline pilots are protected by the scope provisions in the current LOA and why they would have significant difficulty of getting the company to agree to bumping provisions. At the end of the day you're welcome to vote No, but the vague positives and wishes for something better is far outweighed by the negatives to the pilot groups that will ensue.
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Ex DC10 Driver
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Re: One list

Post by Ex DC10 Driver » Sat May 11, 2019 1:04 pm

Well stated Biff!
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JBI
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Re: One list

Post by JBI » Sat May 11, 2019 1:34 pm

Ex DC10 Driver wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 1:04 pm
Well stated Biff!
EX DC10 Driver, I'll also pose the question to you - it's an honest one - what provisions make this LOA poor? And/or what else do mainline pilots voting No think that they'll be able to negotiate instead?

Going through this thread the only specifics outside of "the company has mistreated us" and "the language in the LOA is doo doo" I've only been able to see the following specific concerns that I've quoted below.

I've presented information on both the lay-off provisions and the near impossibility of renegotiating them. With regard to the final post regarding the previous Encore pilots not getting the REIP, it's very unfortunate but the company and Encore MEC was not in a legal position to provide such a perk due to duty of care requirements for unions. A union represents its current members. Period. It cannot negotiate for its previous members. Unfortunately since the Encore pilots that have flowed are previous members, that is not something the Encore MEC is able to negotiate. As the payment is coming from Encore and not WestJet mainline, mainline isn't treating it's pilots differently (which, if they then paid some of their pilots extra but not others, they too would be in a breach of duty of care). It sucks. Period. But that one is not something that will be fixed by voting No.

Again, you're welcome to disagree, but other than the points touched upon, I haven't read any specifics on what is really wrong with this LOA or how voting No will actually improve conditions at mainline and for the Encore pilots that eventually flow there. I'd honestly like to hear more specifics.
JTrain wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:39 am

But if management wants to add pilots to the WJA seniority list, I expect something in return. If they need a recruitment tool for Encore, there are ways they can sweeten the pot for WJ pilots for us to sign off on it, even if we are talking non-monetary compensation. As in get rid of Swoop. Or improve Swoop work rules / condititions.
Blue42 wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 2:47 pm
George Taylor wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 1:56 pm
I must admit I didn’t look at the lay-off language.
Totally a one way street. WJ pilots can’t take Encore jobs during layoffs. If their on the list and can stay, while senior guys get laid off (on the same list) that sucks.
This is a new change to the previous language. Now I can see the NO side.
☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️

That right there is a “NO” vote!!!!!

One list should be one list!!
DropTanks wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 6:06 pm
To the above post...sure thing no problem. One list should be One list. Let seniority rule.

FYI. The sentiment among folks at least in YYZ is a big fat NO. The reason is not to give 🖕🏼 to Encore or the Company. It’s simply because of terrible/lacking lay-off protection language that actually existed in the previous contract. We are all for supporting Encore Pilots in their quest for flow but it can’t be a One way street. They can’t have their seniority cake and eat it too.
FlyYYC wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 4:43 pm
Encore should have never been made a separate company. The union certainly makes things more complicated. It's also not just OTS pilots voting no. There are previous Encore pilots who are very unhappy that they put in their time and never got their top up pay.
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Biff
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Re: One list

Post by Biff » Sat May 11, 2019 3:41 pm

JBI wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 12:54 pm
Biff wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 11:37 am
I’ve heard of none of the MEC’s asking you still not to go to Swoop(please correct me if the Encore MEC has put out a memo requesting you still not go).
The Encore MEC has provided the information regarding Swoop however has indicated that it does not recommend Encore pilots going to Swoop due to the poor working conditions. It is generally believed that if Swoop is not able to recruit with the current conditions the company it will need to revisit the issue. The previous concern amongst Encore pilots was that despite the One List they would be forced to go to Swoop instead of mainline.
So I’m right? The Encore MEC hasn’t told you guys not to flow to Swoop? Thanks for setting that straight. Maybe we can stop using the “we’ll go to Swoop” as a threat to the mainline pilots then. As I said before if you want to go to Swoop, go to Swoop 👍
JBI wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 12:54 pm

Based on my understanding of hiring trends in the Canadian Aviation Industry (again, I'm not an expert but have written a book on pilot careers and have spoken at various aviation career expos) I don't think Swoop will have too much of a problem recruiting for the initial 10 tails, but if they want to expand to 20 or 30 tails (which the Kaplan Award permits) they would have trouble recruiting at the current Wages and Working conditions.
Swoop seemed to be able to hire for the initial cadre of 14(?) pilots during an ALPA hiring freeze. I’m not convinced they will have an issue hiring for another 20 planes. If what I read on this forum is to believed, lots of really experienced guys and girls flocked to Encore from jets overseas. I have to think If Swoop was around at the time they probably would have gone there instead.
JBI wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 12:54 pm

While I'm obviously very much a proponent of voting "Yes" to the LOA, I personally have tried to be pragmatic and objective in my posts. However, I think the emotional responses that you're seeing from other Encore pilots is just a glimpse of the negative reaction mainline pilots will received from Encore pilots if the LOA fails.

Also, while I respect your position that you would attempt to renegotiate the one list, from someone who was involved with both the WJPA and was briefly an ALPA rep (before going on disability leave), I think you are significantly overestimating mainline's bargaining position vis a vis one list and the company. The company has NO obligation whatsoever to come back to the table to negotiate. The current LOA is something that was negotiated over the course of 6-8 months with 5 parties. Now that the company has a CA with both sets of pilots, I can't see them being in a hurry to renegotiate.

Honest question - what is it that you think voting No will improve at mainline?
We might be “significantly overestimating mainlines bargaining position”. That’s absolutely true. There’s always a risk to voting down any contract, the easiest thing to do is always agree that what you’re told is good for you. I get that. I think in this case though, all the parties would like to see a one list go ahead so the risk is minimal.

As an aside, you seem to enjoy spouting your lawyering credentials. I have a question. If all lawyers are as sure of their position as you seem to be, why do we need judges in this country?
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Mr. North
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Re: One list

Post by Mr. North » Sat May 11, 2019 8:41 pm

Biff wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 3:41 pm
As an aside, you seem to enjoy spouting your lawyering credentials. I have a question. If all lawyers are as sure of their position as you seem to be, why do we need judges in this country?
Perhaps it's because people with less topical knowledge insist on arguing endlessly like yourself.
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Re: One list

Post by sarg » Sat May 11, 2019 10:29 pm

JBI wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 1:34 pm



I've presented information on both the lay-off provisions and the near impossibility of renegotiating them. With regard to the final post regarding the previous Encore pilots not getting the REIP, it's very unfortunate but the company and Encore MEC was not in a legal position to provide such a perk due to duty of care requirements for unions. A union represents its current members. Period. It cannot negotiate for its previous members. Unfortunately since the Encore pilots that have flowed are previous members, that is not something the Encore MEC is able to negotiate. As the payment is coming from Encore and not WestJet mainline, mainline isn't treating it's pilots differently (which, if they then paid some of their pilots extra but not others, they too would be in a breach of duty of care). It sucks. Period. But that one is not something that will be fixed by voting No.

That about covers what is wrong with the LOA. A union represents its current members and should not be making one type of future member secondary to another, OTS vs. Encore. Flow maxes out at 90/year or 60% expecting the OTS pilots to take a hit going forward for their entire WestJet career without receiving the possible benefit of job protection in the event of a downturn doesn't work for me.

JBI you keep writing like it's only the future of the Encore pilots that will be affected by the wording of the LOA, it's not. I'm not expecting a no vote to lead to a reopening of the CBA for anyone nor am I hoping to gain any other advantages or punish anyone. If you're correct in that full up & down seniority would violate the CBA well, it sucks but the vote needs to be No.
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Re: One list

Post by oxfordhouse » Sun May 12, 2019 1:05 am

JBI i dont know why you waste your time. The no group wont change their mind. Encore stood by and supported mainline guys from the beginning of the Alpa drive. The talk of unity and even talk of barganing as one unit from day one, whatever that means. Encore was a leveraging tool to these jerks and will continue to be used as a leveraging tool. No amount of reasoning will be able to bring in a revelation of unity or support from the stone cold deaf.

We will find out in a couple of days the true colors of WestJet mainline pilots. A complicated game of moving parts. Easy to do when it doesnt affect your career and its not costing you anything. And so one day you flow after spending many years working in gruelling conditions at Encore and you’re sitting next to that mainline guy you might hear something like man you guys got screwed really sorry about that. What kind of relationship will you have in the cockpit while you know deep down you got burned 250 spots? Thats 4 years upgrade maybe 5. But hey its okay just grin and bear it. Like some douche said on this chat the market will decide, okay Gordon Gekko.
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Biff
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Re: One list

Post by Biff » Sun May 12, 2019 7:51 am

Mr. North wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 8:41 pm
Biff wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 3:41 pm
As an aside, you seem to enjoy spouting your lawyering credentials. I have a question. If all lawyers are as sure of their position as you seem to be, why do we need judges in this country?
Perhaps it's because people with less topical knowledge insist on arguing endlessly like yourself.
Oh...the irony.
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Yycjetdriver
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Re: One list

Post by Yycjetdriver » Sun May 12, 2019 8:17 am

oxfordhouse wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 1:05 am
JBI i dont know why you waste your time. The no group wont change their mind. Encore stood by and supported mainline guys from the beginning of the Alpa drive. The talk of unity and even talk of barganing as one unit from day one, whatever that means. Encore was a leveraging tool to these jerks and will continue to be used as a leveraging tool. No amount of reasoning will be able to bring in a revelation of unity or support from the stone cold deaf.

We will find out in a couple of days the true colors of WestJet mainline pilots. A complicated game of moving parts. Easy to do when it doesnt affect your career and its not costing you anything. And so one day you flow after spending many years working in gruelling conditions at Encore and you’re sitting next to that mainline guy you might hear something like man you guys got screwed really sorry about that. What kind of relationship will you have in the cockpit while you know deep down you got burned 250 spots? Thats 4 years upgrade maybe 5. But hey its okay just grin and bear it. Like some douche said on this chat the market will decide, okay Gordon Gekko.
Why waste his time??? Perhaps because he clearly has a lot of skin in the game. While his posts are well done and he stated his credentials, there clearly favouring one outcome..... The one he will benefit from.
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brooks
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Re: One list

Post by brooks » Sun May 12, 2019 8:18 am

Easier to have two lists going forward than ungluing 1 list. If outside hires continue at WJ/Swoop and Encore starts hiring 250 hour wonders I don't think one list is good for the pilot group. The Encore guys and gals should be happy that just like every other regional out there that they have a shoe in to mainline. If the "WJ group" is going to start playing like a big kid then it should start acting like one. Sorry if I offended anyone. :D
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Re: One list

Post by JBI » Sun May 12, 2019 8:41 am

Biff wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 3:41 pm
So I’m right? The Encore MEC hasn’t told you guys not to flow to Swoop? Thanks for setting that straight. Maybe we can stop using the “we’ll go to Swoop” as a threat to the mainline pilots then. As I said before if you want to go to Swoop, go to Swoop 👍
I'm afraid you misunderstood - the Encore MEC has been quite consistent with its message that Swoop is not somewhere that it recommends Encore pilots go at the current time.
Biff wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 3:41 pm

As an aside, you seem to enjoy spouting your lawyering credentials. I have a question. If all lawyers are as sure of their position as you seem to be, why do we need judges in this country?
In my last post, I didn't spout my lawyering credentials at all - I "spouted" my credentials as an author on the subject of the aviation industry hiring trends as well as some experience with the WJPA/ALPA in seeing some of the challenges with actually negotiating or affecting change with the company (though to be fair I was not involved in the direct negotiations with the company as I withdrew when I was on leave).

And truthfully, I don't enjoy having to state my credentials. While I'm proud that I worked hard and graduated law school, it should be that reasoned debate with well articulated points is convincing enough. However, that doesn't seem to be the case for a lot of things in this world so I outline my experience before backing up my opinion. I'm not always right (you can ask my wife about that!) but when I give my opinion that:

1- I think No voters are overestimating the bargaining position of mainline pilots to renegotiate an LOA with the company;
2- No voters are underestimating the easiness of getting the company to renegotiate an LOA that includes bumping;
3- There are specific legal barriers to an LOA that includes the ability to bump;
4- The lay-off provisions that are included in the LOA actually do provide a significant amount of protection as outlined in my other topic (which surprisingly no one has questioned or challenged or discussed - I would have figured that if lay-off provisions were the main concern of some folks there would have been more of a discussion);
5- The negative consequences of a No vote far outweigh any potential hoped for positives; and
6- Filling more than 10 aircraft at Swoop could start to be problematic

there is both education and experience to back it up.

sarg wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 10:29 pm

JBI you keep writing like it's only the future of the Encore pilots that will be affected by the wording of the LOA, it's not. I'm not expecting a no vote to lead to a reopening of the CBA for anyone nor am I hoping to gain any other advantages or punish anyone. If you're correct in that full up & down seniority would violate the CBA well, it sucks but the vote needs to be No.
sarg, thanks for you comments. With the proposed LOA, my position as outlined in my other topic is that a full up & down seniority would problematic for a number of reasons and, in particular, how the lay-off provisions outlined in the LOA do provide mainline pilots with good protections. Keep in mind I hope to be a mainline pilot in the next year or so. If I thought the protections were not effective I would be saying so. While it does concern more than just the future of Encore pilots, as I'll discuss below, they have the most to lose by a No vote.

Nonetheless, if the LOA gets voted No, there is still no up & down provisions. And in fact, mainline pilots will lose the right to bid on Encore open spots both now and in the event of a lay-off. I really can't see how having nothing is better. However, to each their own.
oxfordhouse wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 1:05 am
JBI i dont know why you waste your time. The no group wont change their mind.
CYOH, I understand the frustration. I mean it's not like I'm spending a significant amount of time on the computer while I'm on vacation in France at the moment... oh wait...

However, I'm not necessarily trying to change the mind of the particular posters interacting on this board. If that happened that'd be great, but I'm also sure that there are a number of folks reading trying to get information and understanding of the terms of the LOA. I have heard anecdotal evidence of mainline pilots not having an understanding of why Encore pilots will be so upset if there is a No vote as well as some claims from mainline pilots that "we have no lay-off protection like we do now", which as I've attempted to outline, is quite false. Hopefully accurate information about the pros and cons can get out there.

Some folks will not believe me, which is too bad and some folks won't agree with me, which is fine. But I feel it's important to make sure that there's an understanding of the issues before someone votes No.
Yycjetdriver wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 8:17 am

Why waste his time??? Perhaps because he clearly has a lot of skin in the game. While his posts are well done and he stated his credentials, there clearly favouring one outcome..... The one he will benefit from.
Of course I have skin in the game. I've stated that from the beginning. For me personally, a No vote has the potential of meaning I can make it back out to Western Canada with WJ in a reasonable amount of time, or not; Financially it likely means the difference of almost $250,000 over the course of my career at WestJet. And it also significantly impacts whether going to a start up like EnerJet becomes worth the risk.

For the company and both the Encore and mainline pilots, I think the negatives of this continued uncertainty will have significant detrimental effects and I fear that the division between the two pilot groups in the event of a No vote will be disastrous. If that's the negative impact on me personally, how do you think 500 Encore pilots will be feeling?

At the end of the day though, as I've previously outlined, I think all pilots at WJ/Encore/Swoop will benefit from having this LOA voted in.

People are welcome to disagree with me. But I hope that until this vote is complete we can continue to discuss the issues professionally and respectfully and get as much information as possible out there.
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Last edited by JBI on Sun May 12, 2019 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

bob99
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Re: One list

Post by bob99 » Sun May 12, 2019 9:19 am

brooks wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 8:18 am
If outside hires continue at WJ/Swoop and Encore starts hiring 250 hour wonders I don't think one list is good for the pilot group.
You must not realize that every captain at Encore has more experience than the OTS hires that mainline has hired this year.
brooks wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 8:18 am
The Encore guys and gals should be happy that just like every other regional out there that they have a shoe in to mainline.
I think they would be, if that was the understanding when hired. However the ~600 pilots affected by this were hired under the premise of the one list. Many were also hired at times when mainline was not hiring, so they thought it would be better to go to Encore right away because at least that way they can get a number.

Canadian pilots have continually, for decades, screwed over the next generation for their own benefit (B scales etc). Now there's some people here who are doing it willingly and for no benefit or reason at all. It just doesn't make sense to me. We have a chance to make things better for those below us and we're just gonna piss it away.
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Re: One list

Post by sarg » Sun May 12, 2019 11:42 am

JBI wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 8:41 am


sarg wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 10:29 pm

JBI you keep writing like it's only the future of the Encore pilots that will be affected by the wording of the LOA, it's not. I'm not expecting a no vote to lead to a reopening of the CBA for anyone nor am I hoping to gain any other advantages or punish anyone. If you're correct in that full up & down seniority would violate the CBA well, it sucks but the vote needs to be No.
sarg, thanks for you comments. With the proposed LOA, my position as outlined in my other topic is that a full up & down seniority would problematic for a number of reasons and, in particular, how the lay-off provisions outlined in the LOA do provide mainline pilots with good protections. Keep in mind I hope to be a mainline pilot in the next year or so. If I thought the protections were not effective I would be saying so.

Nonetheless, if the LOA gets voted No, there is still no up & down provisions. And in fact, mainline pilots will lose the right to bid on Encore open spots both now and in the event of a lay-off. I really can't see how having nothing is better. However, to each their own.




People are welcome to disagree with me. But I hope that until this vote is complete we can continue to discuss the issues professionally and respectfully and get as much information as possible out there.
sarg wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 10:29 pm
JBI wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 1:34 pm


I've presented information on both the lay-off provisions and the near impossibility of renegotiating them. With regard to the final post regarding the previous Encore pilots not getting the REIP, it's very unfortunate but the company and Encore MEC was not in a legal position to provide such a perk due to duty of care requirements for unions. A union represents its current members. Period. It cannot negotiate for its previous members. Unfortunately since the Encore pilots that have flowed are previous members, that is not something the Encore MEC is able to negotiate. As the payment is coming from Encore and not WestJet mainline, mainline isn't treating it's pilots differently (which, if they then paid some of their pilots extra but not others, they too would be in a breach of duty of care). It sucks. Period. But that one is not something that will be fixed by voting No.

That about covers what is wrong with the LOA. A union represents its current members and should not be making one type of future member secondary to another, OTS vs. Encore. Flow maxes out at 90/year or 60% expecting the OTS pilots to take a hit going forward for their entire WestJet career without receiving the possible benefit of job protection in the event of a downturn doesn't work for me.

JBI you keep writing like it's only the future of the Encore pilots that will be affected by the wording of the LOA, it's not. I'm not expecting a no vote to lead to a reopening of the CBA for anyone nor am I hoping to gain any other advantages or punish anyone. If you're correct in that full up & down seniority would violate the CBA well, it sucks but the vote needs to be No.
JBI the joys of selective editing. It's not the first time you've ignored the problem of OTS pilots, and how the LOA is going affect them going forward. As you so concisely put it a union's job is to look after its members, Encore pilots are not members of the mainline union until they transfer into the mainline bargaining unit. At which time you are advocating to be treated better than anyone starting in the mainline unit that came from anywhere but Encore.

The solution to the problem is simple, although unlikely, the "WestJet Group" declares itself the common employer for all pilots employed by the WestJet Group of companies seniority list are merged based on DOH and full mobility rights granted. The company is unlikely to do that because they lose some of their control.

You and others can claim that a Yes vote prevents a divided group, doesn't hurt anyone, and breaks the eating of our young pattern, but this absolutely untrue and will make sure that it continues. It just has the advantage of ensuring your position is better.

While a No vote doesn't mean that we can fix what is needed, it is our only hope of being able to try. With the seniority rights clause surviving cancelation of the LOA all power in the LOA is ceded to the company.
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DirtyDashDriver
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Re: One list

Post by DirtyDashDriver » Sun May 12, 2019 1:05 pm

Long time reader, first-time poster. I'll out myself as an Encore pilot so we can continue to have a reasonable discussion - something I never thought I'd hear myself say on or about AvCanada. My handle is +TSRA over on PPRuNe where I mostly frequent, but that was already taken here.

There is a part of me that understands the no vote. I get it from the seniority side and the lay-off protection side. As emotional as this is for me and my co-workers, I get it. Emotions aside, I could see myself considering a no vote. I can also see myself voting yes. Here is my 2c.

One List

OTS pilots knew what the gist of the one list was when they joined WestJet or Swoop. It was part of the shtick, and if an OTS pilot could not agree to that, they should have sought gainful employment elsewhere. Yes, things change, and we as Encore pilots may have to bite the bullet here, but asking us to consider how this will affect an OTS pilot is not germane. They considered this on their own when they joined the company and thought it an acceptable term of their employment. It would be a vastly different story if we (WS/WO/WR) were trying to start a "one list" or otherwise combine our lists. Then the OTS pilots would have a very understandable gripe as some of them would lose out on their seniority. But as it stands, no one has lost seniority. People are trying to gain seniority through a no vote.

Again, I get it. It shaves off up to four years to the left seat and we are two different bargaining units. But call a spade a spade; don't pretend you're voting no for the betterment of my career, because you're not. A no vote for the one list improves your career, not mine and certainly not "ours."

Lay-off protection

I agree with the no vote in that a WestJet pilot should be able to bump lower seniority pilots out of their position in the case of a lay-off if the "one list" lives. They should not have to bid for open positions. But I ask you to consider this: Encore pilots are not asking to bump an OTS pilot out of their mainline position in the good times, we're asking that you keep a reserved spot for us that recognizes our time spent as an employee of the WestJet Group. In bad times it is likely that an Encore pilot will be laid-off before a mainline pilot is. It is also reasonable to assume that if lay-offs get extreme enough that it reaches WestJet, there likely won't be an Encore for you to bid to - either we've been folded or the CPA was cancelled and we were sold because they had to lay-off too many mainline pilots.

If you argue a no vote gives you greater protection, you're wrong. The LOU gives you an extra avenue of protection you do not currently have and will not have with a no vote. Is it perfect? Nope. But it is better than what you have.

Votes

A yes vote would keep things as they are today. Everyone (WS/WO/WR) has their current seniority as they understood the system to be when they accepted the job. WS and WO pilots would also have the opportunity to bid into Encore should a lay-off occur and there are open positions.

A yes vote would allow us to modify the LOU if and when the two MEC's merge as a combined bargaining unit (this was previously hinted at by both MEC's). In such a case, Encore would likely become a position bid (remember, the union controls the list, the company controls who they hire) and everyone gets the same lay-off protection. Yes, this is three to five years away, but a yes vote allows us somewhere to build up from.

A no vote ensures a WS or WO pilot will never be able to bid down to Encore in the case of a lay-off. It will likely mean the two MEC's never merge, and it will destroy any unity between our two pilot groups. The WS/WO MEC has said they will not revisit this issue. That means they will not revisit one list and they will not revisit the lay-off protections. A no vote ends the conversation, it does not restart it. I'd like to give as much balance to the no side as I have the yes side, but I honestly don't see, given the WS/WO MEC said they will not revisit the issue, how a no vote is positive except for the seniority gain by OTS pilots.

A single list will eventually ensure stability up and down for all near 2,000 pilots at the WestJet group. Having two lists guarantees protection for no one and forces two pilot groups face layoffs instead of one.

We can all work forward to better the situation given a yes vote. We cannot from a no vote.
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Barney
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Re: One list

Post by Barney » Sun May 12, 2019 4:15 pm

I get it you want flow and seniority and top up pay too. Thats great that you want all thoses things. You were able to negotiate all thoses things in your latest contract except seniority. Once you organize all that you once had needed to be negotiated again.

Now Mainline has their own contract and their own members to look out for as well. In most new hire classes the ratio is 6/10 Encore flow.

So the 4 guys can go screw themselves and wait 13 years to upgrade while another full company goes through, who is not on the contract and not a member of said union.
Alot to ask dont ya think?

Anyway I dont think either side is selfish just looking out for their own career which isnt that bad is it?

Good luck on tuesday whatever side your on on this one.
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yvrpilot82
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Re: One list

Post by yvrpilot82 » Sun May 12, 2019 4:50 pm

Barney wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 4:15 pm


So the 4 guys can go screw themselves and wait 13 years to upgrade while another full company goes through, who is not on the contract and not a member of said union.
Alot to ask dont ya think?

Yes! They can go screw themselves. They knew when they signed up that they'd be bottom of the list.

Currently guys at Encore are flowing at the Year 3+ mark.This timeframe has likely now doubled for new hires. When they signed up the One List was a promised item in the job offer.

After 3 years at Encore working their asses off I don't think they'll feel sorry for a 1500 hour Metro driver who just got hired direct at WJ who's feeling hard done by.
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Barney
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Re: One list

Post by Barney » Sun May 12, 2019 5:04 pm

You didn't read my post close enough. One you organize and unionize everything is RENEGOTIATED. The one list does not exist until union members vote.
I'm sure you can understand now.
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Barney
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Re: One list

Post by Barney » Sun May 12, 2019 5:11 pm

yvrpilot82 wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 4:50 pm
Barney wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 4:15 pm


So the 4 guys can go screw themselves and wait 13 years to upgrade while another full company goes through, who is not on the contract and not a member of said union.
Alot to ask dont ya think?

Yes! They can go screw themselves. They knew when they signed up that they'd be bottom of the list.

Currently guys at Encore are flowing at the Year 3+ mark.This timeframe has likely now doubled for new hires. When they signed up the One List was a promised item in the job offer.

After 3 years at Encore working their asses off I don't think they'll feel sorry for a 1500 hour Metro driver who just got hired direct at WJ who's feeling hard done by.
3 whole years wow maybe you should just bypass everyone and head directly to CP.

I didnt realize you had so much experience.
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Dyna
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Re: One list

Post by Dyna » Sun May 12, 2019 5:45 pm

I’m an OTS hire. I’ve been hesitant to post given the emotions on display here, but I feel the need to share my thoughts. I fully support my Encore brethren and maintaining the one list. Every mainline pilot I know and have worked with fully supports having Encore pilots on “one list”. I knew what I was signing up for when I interviewed and when I accepted my terms of employment with WestJet. I have no desire to change those terms for my own betterment.

Unfortunately the terms have changed. It’s not the fault of Encore pilots, or our own mainline pilots. When I started here I knew about flow, about how that would affect my career progression as pilots from Encore flowed into mainline above me in seniority. I was (still am) accepting of that. The trade off was my ability to bump down in the event of a labour reduction. Some of the more passionate Encore posters on here are saying they want what was promised to them. I don’t blame you for that, I want that too. You had access to our list, I had access to yours. Under the terms of this LOU nothing has changed for you, but I can’t say the same. To say I need to vote yes because you were promised something, while accepting that I’m giving up what I was promised, is unrealistic and frankly, unfair.

I appreciate the respectful dialogue, but I staunchly disagree that lay-off protection at mainline is sufficient. Without access to your list, there’s very little protection for mainline pilots. Without the ability to bump down, there’s nothing stopping management from advising....say mid November (for instance)... “things are slowing in the new year, here’s your lay-off notice commencing Jan 1. Hope to see you in March, Merry Christmas”. Under the terms I accepted, they couldn’t do that without causing massive retraining costs as everyone bumps down. That is a huge inhibiter for hasty management decisions. Anyone that has paid attention to this executive should be aware that this is a real possibility.

WJ needs the one list, desperately. If it gets voted down, they’ll be the first ones asking to come back to the table. The only other way for them to attract pilots to Encore is to improve WAWCON. That has immediate financial consequences, and they’ll avoid that by rewording this horribly flawed document.

It’s an emphatic NO! vote for me. As I read somewhere in the King James Version, this LOU is a piece of shit, and it stinketh.
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yvrpilot82
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Re: One list

Post by yvrpilot82 » Sun May 12, 2019 6:27 pm

Barney wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 5:11 pm


3 whole years wow maybe you should just bypass everyone and head directly to CP.

I didnt realize you had so much experience.
How many years would you suggest IS acceptable to be employed on one's terms of an employment agreement before the rug is pulled out from under them?
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Caloyan
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Re: One list

Post by Caloyan » Sun May 12, 2019 7:06 pm

The WJ MEC made it very clear if this was voted no, it would not be reopened for negotiation. It doesn’t matter if Encore and the company come back to the table, the WestJet MEC has said they will not address it again.

Isn’t everyone better off with this than nothing at all?
Dyna wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 5:45 pm
I’m an OTS hire. I’ve been hesitant to post given the emotions on display here, but I feel the need to share my thoughts. I fully support my Encore brethren and maintaining the one list. Every mainline pilot I know and have worked with fully supports having Encore pilots on “one list”. I knew what I was signing up for when I interviewed and when I accepted my terms of employment with WestJet. I have no desire to change those terms for my own betterment.

Unfortunately the terms have changed. It’s not the fault of Encore pilots, or our own mainline pilots. When I started here I knew about flow, about how that would affect my career progression as pilots from Encore flowed into mainline above me in seniority. I was (still am) accepting of that. The trade off was my ability to bump down in the event of a labour reduction. Some of the more passionate Encore posters on here are saying they want what was promised to them. I don’t blame you for that, I want that too. You had access to our list, I had access to yours. Under the terms of this LOU nothing has changed for you, but I can’t say the same. To say I need to vote yes because you were promised something, while accepting that I’m giving up what I was promised, is unrealistic and frankly, unfair.

I appreciate the respectful dialogue, but I staunchly disagree that lay-off protection at mainline is sufficient. Without access to your list, there’s very little protection for mainline pilots. Without the ability to bump down, there’s nothing stopping management from advising....say mid November (for instance)... “things are slowing in the new year, here’s your lay-off notice commencing Jan 1. Hope to see you in March, Merry Christmas”. Under the terms I accepted, they couldn’t do that without causing massive retraining costs as everyone bumps down. That is a huge inhibiter for hasty management decisions. Anyone that has paid attention to this executive should be aware that this is a real possibility.

WJ needs the one list, desperately. If it gets voted down, they’ll be the first ones asking to come back to the table. The only other way for them to attract pilots to Encore is to improve WAWCON. That has immediate financial consequences, and they’ll avoid that by rewording this horribly flawed document.

It’s an emphatic NO! vote for me. As I read somewhere in the King James Version, this LOU is a piece of shit, and it stinketh.
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