One list

Discuss topics relating to Westjet.

Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog

Post Reply
Barney
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 57
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 6:58 pm
Location: Canada

Re: One list

Post by Barney »

You didn't read my post close enough. One you organize and unionize everything is RENEGOTIATED. The one list does not exist until union members vote.
I'm sure you can understand now.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Barney
Rank 2
Rank 2
Posts: 57
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 6:58 pm
Location: Canada

Re: One list

Post by Barney »

yvrpilot82 wrote: Sun May 12, 2019 4:50 pm
Barney wrote: Sun May 12, 2019 4:15 pm

So the 4 guys can go screw themselves and wait 13 years to upgrade while another full company goes through, who is not on the contract and not a member of said union.
Alot to ask dont ya think?

Yes! They can go screw themselves. They knew when they signed up that they'd be bottom of the list.

Currently guys at Encore are flowing at the Year 3+ mark.This timeframe has likely now doubled for new hires. When they signed up the One List was a promised item in the job offer.

After 3 years at Encore working their asses off I don't think they'll feel sorry for a 1500 hour Metro driver who just got hired direct at WJ who's feeling hard done by.
3 whole years wow maybe you should just bypass everyone and head directly to CP.

I didnt realize you had so much experience.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Dyna
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 26
Joined: Sun Jan 12, 2014 1:07 pm

Re: One list

Post by Dyna »

I’m an OTS hire. I’ve been hesitant to post given the emotions on display here, but I feel the need to share my thoughts. I fully support my Encore brethren and maintaining the one list. Every mainline pilot I know and have worked with fully supports having Encore pilots on “one list”. I knew what I was signing up for when I interviewed and when I accepted my terms of employment with WestJet. I have no desire to change those terms for my own betterment.

Unfortunately the terms have changed. It’s not the fault of Encore pilots, or our own mainline pilots. When I started here I knew about flow, about how that would affect my career progression as pilots from Encore flowed into mainline above me in seniority. I was (still am) accepting of that. The trade off was my ability to bump down in the event of a labour reduction. Some of the more passionate Encore posters on here are saying they want what was promised to them. I don’t blame you for that, I want that too. You had access to our list, I had access to yours. Under the terms of this LOU nothing has changed for you, but I can’t say the same. To say I need to vote yes because you were promised something, while accepting that I’m giving up what I was promised, is unrealistic and frankly, unfair.

I appreciate the respectful dialogue, but I staunchly disagree that lay-off protection at mainline is sufficient. Without access to your list, there’s very little protection for mainline pilots. Without the ability to bump down, there’s nothing stopping management from advising....say mid November (for instance)... “things are slowing in the new year, here’s your lay-off notice commencing Jan 1. Hope to see you in March, Merry Christmas”. Under the terms I accepted, they couldn’t do that without causing massive retraining costs as everyone bumps down. That is a huge inhibiter for hasty management decisions. Anyone that has paid attention to this executive should be aware that this is a real possibility.

WJ needs the one list, desperately. If it gets voted down, they’ll be the first ones asking to come back to the table. The only other way for them to attract pilots to Encore is to improve WAWCON. That has immediate financial consequences, and they’ll avoid that by rewording this horribly flawed document.

It’s an emphatic NO! vote for me. As I read somewhere in the King James Version, this LOU is a piece of shit, and it stinketh.
---------- ADS -----------
 
yvrpilot82
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 29
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:26 pm

Re: One list

Post by yvrpilot82 »

Barney wrote: Sun May 12, 2019 5:11 pm

3 whole years wow maybe you should just bypass everyone and head directly to CP.

I didnt realize you had so much experience.
How many years would you suggest IS acceptable to be employed on one's terms of an employment agreement before the rug is pulled out from under them?
---------- ADS -----------
 
Caloyan
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun May 12, 2019 7:00 pm

Re: One list

Post by Caloyan »

The WJ MEC made it very clear if this was voted no, it would not be reopened for negotiation. It doesn’t matter if Encore and the company come back to the table, the WestJet MEC has said they will not address it again.

Isn’t everyone better off with this than nothing at all?
Dyna wrote: Sun May 12, 2019 5:45 pm I’m an OTS hire. I’ve been hesitant to post given the emotions on display here, but I feel the need to share my thoughts. I fully support my Encore brethren and maintaining the one list. Every mainline pilot I know and have worked with fully supports having Encore pilots on “one list”. I knew what I was signing up for when I interviewed and when I accepted my terms of employment with WestJet. I have no desire to change those terms for my own betterment.

Unfortunately the terms have changed. It’s not the fault of Encore pilots, or our own mainline pilots. When I started here I knew about flow, about how that would affect my career progression as pilots from Encore flowed into mainline above me in seniority. I was (still am) accepting of that. The trade off was my ability to bump down in the event of a labour reduction. Some of the more passionate Encore posters on here are saying they want what was promised to them. I don’t blame you for that, I want that too. You had access to our list, I had access to yours. Under the terms of this LOU nothing has changed for you, but I can’t say the same. To say I need to vote yes because you were promised something, while accepting that I’m giving up what I was promised, is unrealistic and frankly, unfair.

I appreciate the respectful dialogue, but I staunchly disagree that lay-off protection at mainline is sufficient. Without access to your list, there’s very little protection for mainline pilots. Without the ability to bump down, there’s nothing stopping management from advising....say mid November (for instance)... “things are slowing in the new year, here’s your lay-off notice commencing Jan 1. Hope to see you in March, Merry Christmas”. Under the terms I accepted, they couldn’t do that without causing massive retraining costs as everyone bumps down. That is a huge inhibiter for hasty management decisions. Anyone that has paid attention to this executive should be aware that this is a real possibility.

WJ needs the one list, desperately. If it gets voted down, they’ll be the first ones asking to come back to the table. The only other way for them to attract pilots to Encore is to improve WAWCON. That has immediate financial consequences, and they’ll avoid that by rewording this horribly flawed document.

It’s an emphatic NO! vote for me. As I read somewhere in the King James Version, this LOU is a piece of shit, and it stinketh.
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
brooks
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 296
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 7:33 pm

Re: One list

Post by brooks »

bob99 wrote: Sun May 12, 2019 9:19 am
brooks wrote: Sun May 12, 2019 8:18 am If outside hires continue at WJ/Swoop and Encore starts hiring 250 hour wonders I don't think one list is good for the pilot group.
You must not realize that every captain at Encore has more experience than the OTS hires that mainline has hired this year.
With all due respect that is a pretty bold statement. Perhaps we could spare a pissing contest.
---------- ADS -----------
 
cloak
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 432
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:08 pm

Re: One list

Post by cloak »

Dyna wrote: Sun May 12, 2019 5:45 pm ... To say I need to vote yes because you were promised something, while accepting that I’m giving up what I was promised, is unrealistic and frankly, unfair. ...
And that is the main point that stays hidden when people view this deal from a narrow perspective and with emotion.

Additionally, this arrangement has reached the fullness if its term. Both companies have certified under separate bargaining units with duty of fair representation to their own members, conditions at Encore have improved significantly from its humble beginnings, the experience level of recruitment is diverging at the two companies, and the new agreement at Encore to large extent has the termination of the one list priced in.

This is a natural culmination of that initial phase and the beginning of the new phase of development and growth, especially in light of Onex purchase. This is the quality of life that it is dynamic and evolves in ways that could not be foreseen before. And it is about balance. Some missed out in one area, but gain in others that cannot be perceived immediately. In light of recent events, and the general feeling online, it would be very surprising for this letter to be approved.

The Onex deal has changed the landscape with likely focus/growth in Swoop, wide body, and trans border capacity to support the joint venture.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by cloak on Mon May 13, 2019 7:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
altiplano
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5377
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 2:24 pm

Re: One list

Post by altiplano »

altiplano wrote: Mon May 06, 2019 6:05 pm none of us know what may come around the next corner...

....

there are scenarios coming that we can't even dream of... I'd want things spelled out a lot clearer than a broad seniority integration in only one direction.

I'd want protections from mergers at the regional, layoffs at the Mainline, and many other things before I just did a feel good unity Yes vote.

...

Unintended consequences.
I'd say that one of those scenarios nobody would have thought of just landed.

Onex will likely split the parts up at Westjet.

What types of unintended consequence will that bring with a one way seniority ladder?

I'd be surprised if your MEC still sent it to a vote after this...
---------- ADS -----------
 
cloak
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 432
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:08 pm

Re: One list

Post by cloak »

altiplano, it feels good for the ego to quote oneself! Joking aside, I wonder how ALPA will react in light of this new development.

However, it is not a foregone conclusion - as much as AC folks would like it :D - that WestJet will be split up. Imho, it is more likely that Onex for some time develops WestJet and all its segments to its full potential and then sells 49% say to Delta possibly with an IPO for a portion of the company to follow. With Onex and Delta as major shareholders, they IPO will sell like hot cakes!

Recall in 1999 Onex tried unsuccessfully to acquire and merge both Canadian and Air Canada in a deal that likely would have been better for the stakeholders, but not for its then executives who later retreated to their Swiss Alps mansions! At any rate, Onex has been interested in and is quite capable of developing and growing an airline like WestJet to its full potential of a world class top10 airline, BEFORE reaping its benefits and still holding a long term position.
---------- ADS -----------
 
JBI
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1064
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 11:21 am
Location: YYC / LGA

Re: One list

Post by JBI »

Yikes!

I sure picked the wrong week to go on vacation. Lots of interesting developments the beginning of which I couldn't even begin to speculate on. Anything could happen, but I would caution about anyone getting all worked up that Onex will immediately parting out the airline a la Gordon Gekko. While anything is possible, Onex's record doesn't indicate that as a modus operandi.
sarg wrote: Sun May 12, 2019 11:42 am
JBI the joys of selective editing. It's not the first time you've ignored the problem of OTS pilots, and how the LOA is going affect them going forward. As you so concisely put it a union's job is to look after its members, Encore pilots are not members of the mainline union until they transfer into the mainline bargaining unit. At which time you are advocating to be treated better than anyone starting in the mainline unit that came from anywhere but Encore.


sarg, I can assure you no harm or deception was meant by not including the whole quote. It was merely to 1- have it 'notified' on your account that I've responded and 2- demonstrate what part of you post I was responding to.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on points. We've hashed it out enough.

With regard to OTS pilots, I was reviewing the seniority list. It's important to note that mainline hiring went in fits and spurts while Encore hiring was pretty consistent. It's also important to note that a number of the Direct Entry Captains at Encore during this time period originally applied to mainline, but were queried as to whether they would be interested in a DEC position at Encore with a seniority number at WestJet.

The last Encore pilots who flowed prior to Jan 1, 2019 (and are thus grandfathered by the Kaplan Award) were hired Sept 2015.

From Sept 2015-Dec 2015, there were 7 mainline pilots and 34 Encore pilots hired.
2016 - 130 (13 mainline and 117 Encore)
2017 - 228 (54 mainline 174 Encore) - it should be noted that no mainline pilots were hired in 2017 after August. There were 85 pilots hired between Aug and Dec 2017
2018 - 202 (6 mainline and 196 Encore)
So far in 2019 there have been a mix of mainline and Encore classes with the most recent WPSL showing the bottom 13 spots being held by mainline pilots.

As I’ve previously stated, this isn’t a knock on the mainline OTS pilots at all. I know a bunch of them and I consider them friends and colleagues. I don’t want negative things to happen to them any more than I don’t want negative things to happen to my Encore colleagues.

So, there are roughly 85ish mainline pilots whose seniority will be affected by the One List LOA if Encore pilots are removed from the Seniority List. The most junior ones hired early this year will see their seniority jump up almost 470 spots. Yet, if the LOA fails, they'll STILL be at the bottom of the mainline seniority list with no ability to bid for open positions at Encore or Swoop.

The most senior OTS pilots and, in particular, the ones hired in late 2016 and early 2017 will not see their seniority numbers rise significantly. For these 50 or so, I definitely agree that they would probably rather have the ability to bump Encore pilots. It's the difference between having 350 pilots below them or only 40ish pilots below them. So IF the LOA was voted NO, AND the company was willing to renegotiate bumping provisions, these 50 or so pilots would benefit greatly. But let's not forget, now that hiring at mainline is ramping up again, a full ability to bump would also positively impact the Encore pilots as currently the bottom 13 pilots on the list (as of April) are OTS mainline pilots. They should love the idea that mainline pilots are more protected by the CA's scope provisions; they can't be bumped by Encore pilots. I am extremely skeptical of the No voters' belief that getting bumping provisions in a renegotiated LOA is as easy as perceived.

As I said, I know a number of those 50 OTS pilots, if I thought that the scope and lay off protections written into the LOA left them completely exposed I'd be saying so. But I spent an entire other topic trying to explain why I don't believe the current lay-off wording is inadequate for mainline pilots.

There are a lot of uncertainties moving forward with today's announcement. While you and I disagree on how much the company 'needs' the One List or how much and/or how immediate they'd increase pay to Encore, what isn't uncertain is that the 550 or so Encore pilots, especially the more senior ones who will be losing 100-200 spots on the WestJet Pilot Seniority list (depending on how much hiring takes place at mainline) and the ability to bid back out west and significantly delay their upgrade at mainline will feel completely betrayed. It will cause a significant rift in the pilot group. With the potential for new ownership do we really want a rift in the pilot group?

Now, more than ever it is imperative that all WestJet, Encore and Swoop pilots stick together so that we can ensure solid careers for our group in this time of change.
---------- ADS -----------
 
altiplano
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5377
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 2:24 pm

Re: One list

Post by altiplano »

cloak wrote: Mon May 13, 2019 7:42 am altiplano, it feels good for the ego to quote oneself! Joking aside, I wonder how ALPA will react in light of this new development.

However, it is not a foregone conclusion - as much as AC folks would like it :D - that WestJet will be split up. Imho, it is more likely that Onex for some time develops WestJet and all its segments to its full potential and then sells 49% say to Delta possibly with an IPO for a portion of the company to follow. With Onex and Delta as major shareholders, they IPO will sell like hot cakes!

Recall in 1999 Onex tried unsuccessfully to acquire and merge both Canadian and Air Canada in a deal that likely would have been better for the stakeholders, but not for its then executives who later retreated to their Swiss Alps mansions! At any rate, Onex has been interested in and is quite capable of developing and growing an airline like WestJet to its full potential of a world class top10 airline, BEFORE reaping its benefits and still holding a long term position.
LOL... yeah, just saying, I said it already and here it is almost on queue... you never know what's around the corner and how it will play or what direction your new owners have in mind...

Lots of possibilities... for sure...

I think the whole industry and business community is watching with interest on how this transaction plays.

Great time to hold shares, good for you guys!
---------- ADS -----------
 
Victory
Rank 6
Rank 6
Posts: 464
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:32 am

Re: One list

Post by Victory »

Did they have the takeover thread deleted? Not a good sign.
---------- ADS -----------
 
JBI
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1064
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 11:21 am
Location: YYC / LGA

Re: One list

Post by JBI »

Victory wrote: Mon May 13, 2019 2:20 pm Did they have the takeover thread deleted? Not a good sign.
Nope, looks like it was just moved to the General Comments Section
---------- ADS -----------
 
Jep
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:46 pm

Re: One list

Post by Jep »

While anything can happen, given the premium that all shareholders will receive on their shares, I don’t see any indication that the Westjet group of companies will be split up or otherwise changed. As Ed indicated on this mornings Webcast, the single word he chose to describe what would come out of this transaction was “growth”. This suggests that Onyx investing in Westjet is a huge vote of confidence in their strategy and the markets ability to support Westjet growth plans. Anyone on the property today who is concerned about lay-off provisions likely has nothing to worry about.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Last edited by Jep on Mon May 13, 2019 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
altiplano
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 5377
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 2:24 pm

Re: One list

Post by altiplano »

"Growth"

I have learned that Pilots and Executives have different visions for what this term means.

Pilots believe it means more planes, more routes.

Executives define it as growing their bank accounts, unlocking value.
---------- ADS -----------
 
North Shore
Rank Moderator
Rank Moderator
Posts: 5602
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 3:47 pm
Location: Straight outta Dundarave...

Re: One list

Post by North Shore »

Victory wrote: Mon May 13, 2019 2:20 pm Did they have the takeover thread deleted? Not a good sign.
Nope. As JBI suggested, it was merged with the other thread, and moved into the general section.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Say, what's that mountain goat doing up here in the mist?
Happiness is V1 at Thompson!
Ass, Licence, Job. In that order.
FlyYYC
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:57 pm

Re: One list

Post by FlyYYC »

Now that Westjet is selling...not sure a one list is in our best interest. Who knows what the plans are.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Maritimer
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 113
Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:06 am

Re: One list

Post by Maritimer »

One list voted down. 54% No, 77% voters
---------- ADS -----------
 
User avatar
Gear Jerker
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 248
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:48 am

Re: One list

Post by Gear Jerker »

Unbelievable. For the no's, and the 400 pilots who couldn't even be bothered to vote, while Encore guys stood with you in unity. All this will accomplish is destabilize Encore, and thus the mothership. Every pilot who was on the fence on AC will now leave, and all of our management will flow. Why would anybody with a choice between Jazz and Encore come here now? This is a sad day.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Look, it's f***in Patrick Swayze and Reveen!
SPR
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 114
Joined: Fri Mar 21, 2014 3:32 pm

Re: One list

Post by SPR »

Thanks guys. You've really emphasized that WestJet and Encore are separate, and we're not on the same team. I can't speak for everyone, but I for one am done helping you, and I'm going to take every small opportunity I have to jab back at you. To the guys who used my jumpseat to get home on the last, full flight of the night, you can spent another night away from home. To the guys who used my jumpseat to barely make it to work by the skin of their teeth, you can deal with the ramifications of the new commuting rules. To the guy who asked to go ahead of me in the immigration line so he could make it to his kid's birthday, you can wait your damn turn.
You guys have all just reinforced Swoop, and ensured that a flood of Encore pilots will be going there and continuing the terrible working conditions. You've undermined your best opportunity to improve things for members of your own bargaining group. I'll be looking for work elsewhere now, but in the meantime I'm seriously considering going to Swoop and doing whatever I can to help get thirty tails moved over from WestJet. If management has trouble crewing all those planes, I'll work 26 days a month to stick it to you. Then I'm going to go work for one of your competitors and help them wear down WestJet from the outside. I hope Onex guts you.
---------- ADS -----------
 
Post Reply

Return to “WestJet”