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brooks
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Re: One list

Post by brooks » Sun May 12, 2019 10:18 pm

bob99 wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 9:19 am
brooks wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 8:18 am
If outside hires continue at WJ/Swoop and Encore starts hiring 250 hour wonders I don't think one list is good for the pilot group.
You must not realize that every captain at Encore has more experience than the OTS hires that mainline has hired this year.
With all due respect that is a pretty bold statement. Perhaps we could spare a pissing contest.
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cloak
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Re: One list

Post by cloak » Mon May 13, 2019 6:17 am

Dyna wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 5:45 pm
... To say I need to vote yes because you were promised something, while accepting that I’m giving up what I was promised, is unrealistic and frankly, unfair. ...
And that is the main point that stays hidden when people view this deal from a narrow perspective and with emotion.

Additionally, this arrangement has reached the fullness if its term. Both companies have certified under separate bargaining units with duty of fair representation to their own members, conditions at Encore have improved significantly from its humble beginnings, the experience level of recruitment is diverging at the two companies, and the new agreement at Encore to large extent has the termination of the one list priced in.

This is a natural culmination of that initial phase and the beginning of the new phase of development and growth, especially in light of Onex purchase. This is the quality of life that it is dynamic and evolves in ways that could not be foreseen before. And it is about balance. Some missed out in one area, but gain in others that cannot be perceived immediately. In light of recent events, and the general feeling online, it would be very surprising for this letter to be approved.

The Onex deal has changed the landscape with likely focus/growth in Swoop, wide body, and trans border capacity to support the joint venture.
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Last edited by cloak on Mon May 13, 2019 7:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

altiplano
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Re: One list

Post by altiplano » Mon May 13, 2019 7:12 am

altiplano wrote:
Mon May 06, 2019 6:05 pm
none of us know what may come around the next corner...

....

there are scenarios coming that we can't even dream of... I'd want things spelled out a lot clearer than a broad seniority integration in only one direction.

I'd want protections from mergers at the regional, layoffs at the Mainline, and many other things before I just did a feel good unity Yes vote.

...

Unintended consequences.
I'd say that one of those scenarios nobody would have thought of just landed.

Onex will likely split the parts up at Westjet.

What types of unintended consequence will that bring with a one way seniority ladder?

I'd be surprised if your MEC still sent it to a vote after this...
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cloak
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Re: One list

Post by cloak » Mon May 13, 2019 7:42 am

altiplano, it feels good for the ego to quote oneself! Joking aside, I wonder how ALPA will react in light of this new development.

However, it is not a foregone conclusion - as much as AC folks would like it :D - that WestJet will be split up. Imho, it is more likely that Onex for some time develops WestJet and all its segments to its full potential and then sells 49% say to Delta possibly with an IPO for a portion of the company to follow. With Onex and Delta as major shareholders, they IPO will sell like hot cakes!

Recall in 1999 Onex tried unsuccessfully to acquire and merge both Canadian and Air Canada in a deal that likely would have been better for the stakeholders, but not for its then executives who later retreated to their Swiss Alps mansions! At any rate, Onex has been interested in and is quite capable of developing and growing an airline like WestJet to its full potential of a world class top10 airline, BEFORE reaping its benefits and still holding a long term position.
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Re: One list

Post by JBI » Mon May 13, 2019 1:36 pm

Yikes!

I sure picked the wrong week to go on vacation. Lots of interesting developments the beginning of which I couldn't even begin to speculate on. Anything could happen, but I would caution about anyone getting all worked up that Onex will immediately parting out the airline a la Gordon Gekko. While anything is possible, Onex's record doesn't indicate that as a modus operandi.
sarg wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 11:42 am

JBI the joys of selective editing. It's not the first time you've ignored the problem of OTS pilots, and how the LOA is going affect them going forward. As you so concisely put it a union's job is to look after its members, Encore pilots are not members of the mainline union until they transfer into the mainline bargaining unit. At which time you are advocating to be treated better than anyone starting in the mainline unit that came from anywhere but Encore.


sarg, I can assure you no harm or deception was meant by not including the whole quote. It was merely to 1- have it 'notified' on your account that I've responded and 2- demonstrate what part of you post I was responding to.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on points. We've hashed it out enough.

With regard to OTS pilots, I was reviewing the seniority list. It's important to note that mainline hiring went in fits and spurts while Encore hiring was pretty consistent. It's also important to note that a number of the Direct Entry Captains at Encore during this time period originally applied to mainline, but were queried as to whether they would be interested in a DEC position at Encore with a seniority number at WestJet.

The last Encore pilots who flowed prior to Jan 1, 2019 (and are thus grandfathered by the Kaplan Award) were hired Sept 2015.

From Sept 2015-Dec 2015, there were 7 mainline pilots and 34 Encore pilots hired.
2016 - 130 (13 mainline and 117 Encore)
2017 - 228 (54 mainline 174 Encore) - it should be noted that no mainline pilots were hired in 2017 after August. There were 85 pilots hired between Aug and Dec 2017
2018 - 202 (6 mainline and 196 Encore)
So far in 2019 there have been a mix of mainline and Encore classes with the most recent WPSL showing the bottom 13 spots being held by mainline pilots.

As I’ve previously stated, this isn’t a knock on the mainline OTS pilots at all. I know a bunch of them and I consider them friends and colleagues. I don’t want negative things to happen to them any more than I don’t want negative things to happen to my Encore colleagues.

So, there are roughly 85ish mainline pilots whose seniority will be affected by the One List LOA if Encore pilots are removed from the Seniority List. The most junior ones hired early this year will see their seniority jump up almost 470 spots. Yet, if the LOA fails, they'll STILL be at the bottom of the mainline seniority list with no ability to bid for open positions at Encore or Swoop.

The most senior OTS pilots and, in particular, the ones hired in late 2016 and early 2017 will not see their seniority numbers rise significantly. For these 50 or so, I definitely agree that they would probably rather have the ability to bump Encore pilots. It's the difference between having 350 pilots below them or only 40ish pilots below them. So IF the LOA was voted NO, AND the company was willing to renegotiate bumping provisions, these 50 or so pilots would benefit greatly. But let's not forget, now that hiring at mainline is ramping up again, a full ability to bump would also positively impact the Encore pilots as currently the bottom 13 pilots on the list (as of April) are OTS mainline pilots. They should love the idea that mainline pilots are more protected by the CA's scope provisions; they can't be bumped by Encore pilots. I am extremely skeptical of the No voters' belief that getting bumping provisions in a renegotiated LOA is as easy as perceived.

As I said, I know a number of those 50 OTS pilots, if I thought that the scope and lay off protections written into the LOA left them completely exposed I'd be saying so. But I spent an entire other topic trying to explain why I don't believe the current lay-off wording is inadequate for mainline pilots.

There are a lot of uncertainties moving forward with today's announcement. While you and I disagree on how much the company 'needs' the One List or how much and/or how immediate they'd increase pay to Encore, what isn't uncertain is that the 550 or so Encore pilots, especially the more senior ones who will be losing 100-200 spots on the WestJet Pilot Seniority list (depending on how much hiring takes place at mainline) and the ability to bid back out west and significantly delay their upgrade at mainline will feel completely betrayed. It will cause a significant rift in the pilot group. With the potential for new ownership do we really want a rift in the pilot group?

Now, more than ever it is imperative that all WestJet, Encore and Swoop pilots stick together so that we can ensure solid careers for our group in this time of change.
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Re: One list

Post by altiplano » Mon May 13, 2019 1:45 pm

cloak wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 7:42 am
altiplano, it feels good for the ego to quote oneself! Joking aside, I wonder how ALPA will react in light of this new development.

However, it is not a foregone conclusion - as much as AC folks would like it :D - that WestJet will be split up. Imho, it is more likely that Onex for some time develops WestJet and all its segments to its full potential and then sells 49% say to Delta possibly with an IPO for a portion of the company to follow. With Onex and Delta as major shareholders, they IPO will sell like hot cakes!

Recall in 1999 Onex tried unsuccessfully to acquire and merge both Canadian and Air Canada in a deal that likely would have been better for the stakeholders, but not for its then executives who later retreated to their Swiss Alps mansions! At any rate, Onex has been interested in and is quite capable of developing and growing an airline like WestJet to its full potential of a world class top10 airline, BEFORE reaping its benefits and still holding a long term position.
LOL... yeah, just saying, I said it already and here it is almost on queue... you never know what's around the corner and how it will play or what direction your new owners have in mind...

Lots of possibilities... for sure...

I think the whole industry and business community is watching with interest on how this transaction plays.

Great time to hold shares, good for you guys!
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Re: One list

Post by Victory » Mon May 13, 2019 2:20 pm

Did they have the takeover thread deleted? Not a good sign.
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Re: One list

Post by JBI » Mon May 13, 2019 2:25 pm

Victory wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 2:20 pm
Did they have the takeover thread deleted? Not a good sign.
Nope, looks like it was just moved to the General Comments Section
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Jep
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Re: One list

Post by Jep » Mon May 13, 2019 2:29 pm

While anything can happen, given the premium that all shareholders will receive on their shares, I don’t see any indication that the Westjet group of companies will be split up or otherwise changed. As Ed indicated on this mornings Webcast, the single word he chose to describe what would come out of this transaction was “growth”. This suggests that Onyx investing in Westjet is a huge vote of confidence in their strategy and the markets ability to support Westjet growth plans. Anyone on the property today who is concerned about lay-off provisions likely has nothing to worry about.
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Last edited by Jep on Mon May 13, 2019 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

altiplano
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Re: One list

Post by altiplano » Mon May 13, 2019 2:35 pm

"Growth"

I have learned that Pilots and Executives have different visions for what this term means.

Pilots believe it means more planes, more routes.

Executives define it as growing their bank accounts, unlocking value.
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Re: One list

Post by North Shore » Mon May 13, 2019 8:15 pm

Victory wrote:
Mon May 13, 2019 2:20 pm
Did they have the takeover thread deleted? Not a good sign.
Nope. As JBI suggested, it was merged with the other thread, and moved into the general section.
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FlyYYC
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Re: One list

Post by FlyYYC » Tue May 14, 2019 12:47 pm

Now that Westjet is selling...not sure a one list is in our best interest. Who knows what the plans are.
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Re: One list

Post by Maritimer » Tue May 14, 2019 12:55 pm

One list voted down. 54% No, 77% voters
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Re: One list

Post by Gear Jerker » Tue May 14, 2019 1:05 pm

Unbelievable. For the no's, and the 400 pilots who couldn't even be bothered to vote, while Encore guys stood with you in unity. All this will accomplish is destabilize Encore, and thus the mothership. Every pilot who was on the fence on AC will now leave, and all of our management will flow. Why would anybody with a choice between Jazz and Encore come here now? This is a sad day.
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Re: One list

Post by SPR » Tue May 14, 2019 1:12 pm

Thanks guys. You've really emphasized that WestJet and Encore are separate, and we're not on the same team. I can't speak for everyone, but I for one am done helping you, and I'm going to take every small opportunity I have to jab back at you. To the guys who used my jumpseat to get home on the last, full flight of the night, you can spent another night away from home. To the guys who used my jumpseat to barely make it to work by the skin of their teeth, you can deal with the ramifications of the new commuting rules. To the guy who asked to go ahead of me in the immigration line so he could make it to his kid's birthday, you can wait your damn turn.
You guys have all just reinforced Swoop, and ensured that a flood of Encore pilots will be going there and continuing the terrible working conditions. You've undermined your best opportunity to improve things for members of your own bargaining group. I'll be looking for work elsewhere now, but in the meantime I'm seriously considering going to Swoop and doing whatever I can to help get thirty tails moved over from WestJet. If management has trouble crewing all those planes, I'll work 26 days a month to stick it to you. Then I'm going to go work for one of your competitors and help them wear down WestJet from the outside. I hope Onex guts you.
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Re: One list

Post by .80@410 » Tue May 14, 2019 1:17 pm

:(
Sorry ladies and gents .

It was a YES for me.

I was the minority .
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Re: One list

Post by skybaron » Tue May 14, 2019 1:30 pm

SPR wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 1:12 pm
Thanks guys. You've really emphasized that WestJet and Encore are separate, and we're not on the same team. I can't speak for everyone, but I for one am done helping you, and I'm going to take every small opportunity I have to jab back at you. To the guys who used my jumpseat to get home on the last, full flight of the night, you can spent another night away from home. To the guys who used my jumpseat to barely make it to work by the skin of their teeth, you can deal with the ramifications of the new commuting rules. To the guy who asked to go ahead of me in the immigration line so he could make it to his kid's birthday, you can wait your damn turn.
You guys have all just reinforced Swoop, and ensured that a flood of Encore pilots will be going there and continuing the terrible working conditions. You've undermined your best opportunity to improve things for members of your own bargaining group. I'll be looking for work elsewhere now, but in the meantime I'm seriously considering going to Swoop and doing whatever I can to help get thirty tails moved over from WestJet. If management has trouble crewing all those planes, I'll work 26 days a month to stick it to you. Then I'm going to go work for one of your competitors and help them wear down WestJet from the outside. I hope Onex guts you.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Goddam what a sick industry. WJ “Mainline dip sh*ts” just took their temper tantrum out on their younger siblings! Those guys stuck by you at the worst of times, and this is how you reward their loyalty!

F**K YOU WJ!
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Re: One list

Post by tbayav8er » Tue May 14, 2019 1:32 pm

.
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Re: One list

Post by bob99 » Tue May 14, 2019 1:38 pm

The new scum of Canadian aviation.
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Re: One list

Post by John1234 » Tue May 14, 2019 1:54 pm

Congrats to the original swoop scum who couldn’t get a job at well any other half decent airline. Before being picked off the bottom because they were the online option. As well to the low time guys who got in because all the other qualified pilots were working their buts off being captains at encore supporting there fellow colleagues at mainline, preventing tails going to swoop. Hope mainline guys and gals feel strong today; you achieve absolutely nothing out of this.
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Re: One list

Post by yvrpilot82 » Tue May 14, 2019 2:44 pm

Over 400 pilots couldn't EVEN BE BOTHERED to vote.
To think how many Encore guys stood at the campus last year holding picket signs deluded that we were together in unity. What an utter slap in the face. I don't personally agree with the jumpseat ban on Encore for WJ commuters that seems to be purported around social media, but it already shows the division that is happening from two groups that were apparently supporting each other until this vote.
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Re: One list

Post by hurtin'albertan » Tue May 14, 2019 2:45 pm

SPR wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 1:12 pm
Thanks guys. You've really emphasized that WestJet and Encore are separate, and we're not on the same team. I can't speak for everyone, but I for one am done helping you, and I'm going to take every small opportunity I have to jab back at you. To the guys who used my jumpseat to get home on the last, full flight of the night, you can spent another night away from home. To the guys who used my jumpseat to barely make it to work by the skin of their teeth, you can deal with the ramifications of the new commuting rules. To the guy who asked to go ahead of me in the immigration line so he could make it to his kid's birthday, you can wait your damn turn.
You guys have all just reinforced Swoop, and ensured that a flood of Encore pilots will be going there and continuing the terrible working conditions. You've undermined your best opportunity to improve things for members of your own bargaining group. I'll be looking for work elsewhere now, but in the meantime I'm seriously considering going to Swoop and doing whatever I can to help get thirty tails moved over from WestJet. If management has trouble crewing all those planes, I'll work 26 days a month to stick it to you. Then I'm going to go work for one of your competitors and help them wear down WestJet from the outside. I hope Onex guts you.
Ugh. I don't blame you one bit for feeling this way. Truly a sad day. Just know that THIS mainline pilot voted yes, and I'll be buying coffees for every Encore pilot I come across for the rest of my career and if you stick around and flow, the beer's on me too on a layover. It's the very least I can do as an offer of apology for the incredibly short-sighted actions of my peers at mainline. What a fucking mess we have made. :supz:

Congrats WJ pilots. You just gave Swoop new lifeblood with a new uber-motivated pool of pilots willing to go there to undermine our WAWCON and @#$! us right back. Bravo. :toimonster:
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Last edited by hurtin'albertan on Tue May 14, 2019 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: One list

Post by Gear Jerker » Tue May 14, 2019 2:49 pm

I'd like to also do 2 things here.

1) Commend the Encore MEC who, to my judgment has acted reasonably, wisely, professionally and showed unity through every step.

2) Call out the Westjet MEC who, despite obvious turmoil, unrest and divided opinion even amongst the LEC's, and despite disinformation being spread rampantly, went ahead and opened the vote. 400 pilots didn't even vote. Whatever happens from here, you wear this.
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Re: One list

Post by avbird » Tue May 14, 2019 3:00 pm

I hope Westjet pilots who commute from yul or yow like walking, the jumpseat is closed at encore.
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Re: One list

Post by porcsord » Tue May 14, 2019 3:01 pm

To preface this, I have no horse in this race. I don't work for WestJet or Encore, or have even the slightest desire to work for an airline. With that being said take the following piece of advice for what you paid for it:

Don't be bitter, don't go out of your way to hurt others. Stop people from getting home to their families because your number doesn't transfer over? Grow up. The world doesn't owe you anything, and like everything else in life get used to the fact that it isn't fair. If you hold that much resentment throughout your career, you're going to be a miserable C*** to fly with, and that misery will be noticeable outside work. You took a position at a company, they pay you for that position, and like everything else: Nothing Happens until it Happens, you gambled on one list and it didn't pan out, it's no different than investing in stocks, you hope it goes up, but it may also tank. If you don't like the result, apply elsewhere find another job, but don't carry your bitterness.

PC
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