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jedcat
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Re: One list

Post by jedcat »

Sorry Encore, while the rest of the airlines are supporting one another for the progress of the industry, these parasites that call them selves pilots just took the WestJet brand back to the 90s. I came to the picket the WestJet pilots had last spring to give support and think I met just as many encore pilots as WestJet.

Encore stay strong out there.

WJ pilots, Just so I understand, your company allowed you to let your regional pilots hold seniority going into the major airline (something I think most of wish we had when we were at regionals) and you voted no?
please request different uniforms from Encore so I dont accidently spit on one of them mistaking Encore for WJ and when your in the terminal and get the feeling that the AC, Jazz and transit pilots are judging you, you can trust your instincts. I'm sure this news will make it's way to the states too aren't ya'll ALPA?
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Impact
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Re: One list

Post by Impact »

Vanguard wrote: Tue May 14, 2019 4:20 pm
For the 400 of you that did not vote... shame on you. You are almost worse than the people who voted to dispel this LOU. We know it didn’t affect you that much but it affected all the time we put into Encore waiting to join you on the other side.
Are you suggesting that I do not have the right to not vote, if that's what I choose to do?

I'm a little shocked that you would trample on my personal liberties as a result of you not achieving a result that was wished for.
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Yycjetdriver
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Re: One list

Post by Yycjetdriver »

jedcat wrote: Tue May 14, 2019 10:57 pm Sorry Encore, while the rest of the airlines are supporting one another for the progress of the industry, these parasites that call them selves pilots just took the WestJet brand back to the 90s. I came to the picket the WestJet pilots had last spring to give support and think I met just as many encore pilots as WestJet.

Encore stay strong out there.

WJ pilots, Just so I understand, your company allowed you to let your regional pilots hold seniority going into the major airline (something I think most of wish we had when we were at regionals) and you voted no?
please request different uniforms from Encore so I dont accidently spit on one of them mistaking Encore for WJ and when your in the terminal and get the feeling that the AC, Jazz and transit pilots are judging you, you can trust your instincts. I'm sure this news will make it's way to the states too aren't ya'll ALPA?
“The rest of the airlines in Canada are supporting one another” ahahaahaha. What rock are you living under?
Are you referring to the A scale senior Jazz guys that sold out and screwed anyone coming to Jazz on the B scale? Maybe you talking about the Georgian guys who worked under terrible WAWCON, driving down the CPA industry only to eventually join the very guys they helped screw.
The list goes on...
It’s fine and understandable if you hate what WJ Mainline guys did, but don’t act like it hasn’t been done in different ways by basically every other group.
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jedcat
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Re: One list

Post by jedcat »

Yycjetdriver wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 10:08 am
jedcat wrote: Tue May 14, 2019 10:57 pm Sorry Encore, while the rest of the airlines are supporting one another for the progress of the industry, these parasites that call them selves pilots just took the WestJet brand back to the 90s. I came to the picket the WestJet pilots had last spring to give support and think I met just as many encore pilots as WestJet.

Encore stay strong out there.

WJ pilots, Just so I understand, your company allowed you to let your regional pilots hold seniority going into the major airline (something I think most of wish we had when we were at regionals) and you voted no?
please request different uniforms from Encore so I dont accidently spit on one of them mistaking Encore for WJ and when your in the terminal and get the feeling that the AC, Jazz and transit pilots are judging you, you can trust your instincts. I'm sure this news will make it's way to the states too aren't ya'll ALPA?
“The rest of the airlines in Canada are supporting one another” ahahaahaha. What rock are you living under?
Are you referring to the A scale senior Jazz guys that sold out and screwed anyone coming to Jazz on the B scale? Maybe you talking about the Georgian guys who worked under terrible WAWCON, driving down the CPA industry only to eventually join the very guys they helped screw.
The list goes on...
It’s fine and understandable if you hate what WJ Mainline guys did, but don’t act like it hasn’t been done in different ways by basically every other group.
First off I didnt say Canada so if you're going to quote someone dont add words, I think the majority of the Jazz pilots are happy that they have career progression into AC and are welcomed and have priority. Georgians gone and that's an improvement. You say the list goes on and on, but I'm just saying there is more support out there MEC's working together IE AC honoring your swoop hiring band. All the airlines in the states are working off each others contracts to improve, Regional to major transitions have been improving too. you guys just took a step backwards.

but maybe I'm wrong to be hopefull that things are improving but I'm not wrong about you fucking over your peers and I'll leave it at that
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GATRKGA
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Re: One list

Post by GATRKGA »

It looks like I hit a bit of a nerve there with some of you. I am sorry for having offended you guys.

I have no problem with fast career progressions. If the training and mentorship can keep up with it, then it's a fantastic time for the generation behind us and I would love to see a system where we break away from having to attend our peers' funerals. Been to a handful of those myself. It sucks! All that being said, it still doesn't remove the fact that you guys still have it way better. How many Encore related funerals have you been to? 0. How do you connect this to me thinking that just cause my generation had to go through it, you do to? That is an assumption at best.

And no, of course, I don't think Encore is just made up of 23-year-olds with bare bone experience. But I also don't think that the majority of Encore is staffed with much experience. Because if that was the case, you guys would not have favored 92% of that TA. Had there actually existed an experienced demographic that could provide these kids with a voice of reason, you would have educated your youth on how voting in such a contract could easily backfire pending the one-list vote. And it did. For the record, I've studied your TA immensely. You guys voted 92% in favor based on a gamble of the one-list vote coming through for you; a vote that wasn't set to close until weeks after your TA vote was due. And it so turns out that the one list vote was rejected. While this may all be perceived as WJ pilots betrayal, it actually isn't. They have a very fair point in rejecting the one list based on improper reduction language. Is it at all considered that the WJ pilots were the ones that favored in the first version of one list? Believe me when I tell you that WJ pilots did not do this as a slap in your face. Something serious was on the line, and reduction language is huge. How could it not be a big deal to not have reduction language? So you get to bypass a bunch of 737 drivers today to upgrade, but you can't reduce in order of seniority? Wtf? Give your head a shake! You Encore drivers jumped the gun and voted in favor anyway, fully well knowing that one-list hadn't been solved. And now you've shorted yourself of a clear bargaining power simply because you didn't send the MEC back to the table for a better TA with one list language clarified.

I am so sorry that this truth is being exposed about your choices, but you are unfortunately surrounded by a very inexperienced paradigm, and as a result, you guys got the failure of a contract which you now have to sit there and dwell on for the next five years.

As adults, you make your own decisions with the information that you have in front of you. Would you risk going through a cell, even if it was reported as just heavy rain on the CANUC4 with an MSA of 14k? No. Would you risk voting in favor of a contract when you don't have the confirmed details of one list? No. Why? Cause it's a risky gamble. And you guys did exactly that. Gambled; resultantly, 92% of you got burned in a fair game of poker. Nobody held a gun to your head to vote in 92% in favor of that TA. You did that one all on your own.

Sorry, I struck a nerve with my initial post. I do want you guys to succeed over there at Encore. But you have to accept your current state of affairs before anything can be done about it. Banning your jumpseat won't do anything. Just as it won't do anything if you don't recognize that the majority of your Encore demographics are not as experienced in this industry to make informed decisions. 92% clearly indicates that most of your pilots haven't even been in the industry long enough to see what an economic slow down will look like. Let alone a system where gambling the next 5 years on a vote that hasn't even passed yet.

I hope the WestJetty culture you guys are known for provokes this situation to be made correct. And that this is all water under the bridge shortly. You guys are brothers and sisters going through a teenage brothel at the moment. It will all clear, and you guys can go back to enjoying some biscoff cookies and cranberry cocktails talking about what a fantastic profit share cheque you'll have!

I wish you guys the best. Good Luck!
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JBI
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Re: One list

Post by JBI »

GATRKGA wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 11:30 am
[...]

Because if that was the case, you guys would not have favored 92% of that TA. Had there actually existed an experienced demographic that could provide these kids with a voice of reason, you would have educated your youth on how voting in such a contract could easily backfire pending the one-list vote. And it did. For the record, I've studied your TA immensely. You guys voted 92% in favor based on a gamble of the one-list vote coming through for you; a vote that wasn't set to close until weeks after your TA vote was due. And it so turns out that the one list vote was rejected. While this may all be perceived as WJ pilots betrayal, it actually isn't. They have a very fair point in rejecting the one list based on improper reduction language. Is it at all considered that the WJ pilots were the ones that favored in the first version of one list? Believe me when I tell you that WJ pilots did not do this as a slap in your face. Something serious was on the line, and reduction language is huge. How could it not be a big deal to not have reduction language? So you get to bypass a bunch of 737 drivers today to upgrade, but you can't reduce in order of seniority? Wtf? Give your head a shake! You Encore drivers jumped the gun and voted in favor anyway, fully well knowing that one-list hadn't been solved. And now you've shorted yourself of a clear bargaining power simply because you didn't send the MEC back to the table for a better TA with one list language clarified.
Biff will give me a hard time for spouting my lawyering credentials, but hopefully he'll spare me this one last time (and there's more to come below which he'll like).

As someone who has been in the aviation industry for over 20 years (including working the ramp and freezing my ass off in the arctic) has been an aviation lawyer, has negotiated settlement agreements, given legal seminars to pilots, has drafted submissions that are in the final reports of TSB documents and spoken at conferences about aviation careers and was kept abreast of the entire process, you don't know what hell you're talking about. Understanding the challenging relationship between 3 companies, 2 bargaining units, an intersecting LOA and moving parts is far more complicated than simply reviewing our TA. The different duties of care and conditions of the Canadian Labour Code is extremely complex. Being able to fly a e175 at SKY is good and I honestly wish you the best of luck in your career, but to suggest that you've 'studied immensely' and then to spout the next few lines proves that you don't actually know what you don't know. That's the most dangerous type of experience.

Now, for Biff and ex-DC10 driver and sarg, it looks like I have been proven wrong that even after a failed LOA, the WJ MEC is looking at different options and wording. I'm happy to be wrong on this. I hope that we can continue working on this to protect pilot unity at WestJet.

Cheers
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Mr. North
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Re: One list

Post by Mr. North »

Couldn't have said it better myself JBI. Anyone with a casual interest let alone someone who has "studied the TA immensely" would know that one bargaining unit cannot negotiate seniority onto a seperate bargaining unit. That was never a part of the equation and to suggest otherwise merely demonstrates one's failure to grasp the subject at hand. The 92% was a vote in favour of the contract as it pertained to Encore, full stop. The one list required a 5-way agreement (WJA, Swoop, Encore, WJ pilots, Encore pilots) that is outside of any individual contract, and which the company has stated from the beginning they would not sign until both contracts were in place.

Please refrain from calling the Encore pilot group immature and inexperienced when you yourself have demonstrated an inability to understand the dynamics at play.
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Rezy
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Re: One list

Post by Rezy »

GATRKGA wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 11:30 am They have a very fair point in rejecting the one list based on improper reduction language. Is it at all considered that the WJ pilots were the ones that favored in the first version of one list? Believe me when I tell you that WJ pilots did not do this as a slap in your face. Something serious was on the line, and reduction language is huge. How could it not be a big deal to not have reduction language? So you get to bypass a bunch of 737 drivers today to upgrade, but you can't reduce in order of seniority? Wtf? Give your head a shake!
How does voting down the one list improve your reduction opportunities?
Can you now reduce into Encore?
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Biff
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Re: One list

Post by Biff »

JBI wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 12:37 pm
Now, for Biff and ex-DC10 driver and sarg, it looks like I have been proven wrong that even after a failed LOA, the WJ MEC is looking at different options and wording. I'm happy to be wrong on this. I hope that we can continue working on this to protect pilot unity at WestJet.

Cheers
No worries buddy, even the best lawyers are wrong from time to time!🤪
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tbayav8er
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Re: One list

Post by tbayav8er »

So let's say the LOU gets fixed up with wording to protect certain things that you guys were concerned about (layoff protection, etc.)...Would you guys vote "yes" to it?
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Biff
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Re: One list

Post by Biff »

tbayav8er wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 5:15 pm So let's say the LOU gets fixed up with wording to protect certain things that you guys were concerned about (layoff protection, etc.)...Would you guys vote "yes" to it?
I think we’re trying to mandate the MEC do something better than that. Hopefully the MEC’s will have a comm out soon
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tbayav8er
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Re: One list

Post by tbayav8er »

Right on. Thanks!

Biff wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 5:27 pm
tbayav8er wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 5:15 pm So let's say the LOU gets fixed up with wording to protect certain things that you guys were concerned about (layoff protection, etc.)...Would you guys vote "yes" to it?
I think we’re trying to mandate the MEC do something better than that. Hopefully the MEC’s will have a comm out soon
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tkdowell
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Re: One list

Post by tkdowell »

Biff wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 5:27 pm
tbayav8er wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 5:15 pm So let's say the LOU gets fixed up with wording to protect certain things that you guys were concerned about (layoff protection, etc.)...Would you guys vote "yes" to it?
I think we’re trying to mandate the MEC do something better than that. Hopefully the MEC’s will have a comm out soon
Here it is:

Latest Update

15 May 2019

Fellow Pilots,

Yesterday, following the publication of the “One List” LOA ballot results, the MEC and LEC reps received an overwhelming response from our pilot membership indicating strong support of the “One List” concept. As a result, the MEC has decided to work with ALPA to commission a poll or survey in order to quickly gather additional information to determine why pilots voted to reject the proposal. This data will be used to both validate the response we are receiving and to determine next steps.

We recognize that the consequences of our pilots’ decisions have a large effect on pilot unity as a whole within the WestJet group so accordingly we have advised the Encore MEC and senior management that we are undertaking these steps. Both parties remain supportive of dialogue on “One List” LOA. We ask for your patience and professionalism while this task is organized in the coming days./p>

Sincerely,

Your MEC
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Jep
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Re: One list

Post by Jep »

Biff wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 5:11 pm
JBI wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 12:37 pm
Now, for Biff and ex-DC10 driver and sarg, it looks like I have been proven wrong that even after a failed LOA, the WJ MEC is looking at different options and wording. I'm happy to be wrong on this. I hope that we can continue working on this to protect pilot unity at WestJet.

Cheers
No worries buddy, even the best lawyers are wrong from time to time!🤪
Regardless, I don’t think anyone at encore appreciates the indignity of have their careers used as pawns in a chess match!
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KAG
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Re: One list

Post by KAG »

tbayav8er wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 5:15 pm So let's say the LOU gets fixed up with wording to protect certain things that you guys were concerned about (layoff protection, etc.)...Would you guys vote "yes" to it?
Yup. A true one list has movement in both directions. In the event of a layoff I want to know I get a left seat on the dash. Do I bump someone? Yup, dont care. I've been here longer. You get pay protected at AC so that's not out of the question here.
Name me one other airline in the north America where you as a regional pilot have seniority on the mainline list? I dont think there is one, but I'm open to be proven wrong.
Just having guaranteed flow is incredible in itself, but we want one list.
Now what hasn't been discussed and should be is the upcoming cadet program. That changes things. So maybe you need to be ATPL rated before you get into the seniority list as I'll be damned if I'm going to support a list that has fresh students getting seniority ahead of a solid experienced OTS pilots. I know this could drift into the 200 hour airline fo discussion, not my intention but this needs to be considered as the cadet program is in the works.
Anyway we got an ALPA flash that stated this is not dead. That they had "overwhelming support to fix the language" and that it's being looked into post haste.

So that said to my encore brothers and sisters - stay professional, stay strong, and don't shoot yourselves in the foot.
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KAG
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Re: One list

Post by KAG »

Jep wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 6:05 pm
Biff wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 5:11 pm
JBI wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 12:37 pm
Now, for Biff and ex-DC10 driver and sarg, it looks like I have been proven wrong that even after a failed LOA, the WJ MEC is looking at different options and wording. I'm happy to be wrong on this. I hope that we can continue working on this to protect pilot unity at WestJet.

Cheers
No worries buddy, even the best lawyers are wrong from time to time!🤪
Regardless, I don’t think anyone at encore appreciates the indignity of have their careers used as pawns in a chess match!
Lol man that's every worker in every field ever. Get used to it unless you're the CEO.
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tbayav8er
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Re: One list

Post by tbayav8er »

Yep, I get where you're coming from. I was pleased to find out so many mainline pilots were making their voices heard to try to get the language fixed.

And I agree - Maintaining professionalism through this is important, even though it is an anxious time for us at Encore.

KAG wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 6:17 pm
tbayav8er wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 5:15 pm So let's say the LOU gets fixed up with wording to protect certain things that you guys were concerned about (layoff protection, etc.)...Would you guys vote "yes" to it?
Yup. A true one list has movement in both directions. In the event of a layoff I want to know I get a left seat on the dash. Do I bump someone? Yup, dont care. I've been here longer. You get pay protected at AC so that's not out of the question here.
Name me one other airline in the north America where you as a regional pilot have seniority on the mainline list? I dont think there is one, but I'm open to be proven wrong.
Just having guaranteed flow is incredible in itself, but we want one list.
Now what hasn't been discussed and should be is the upcoming cadet program. That changes things. So maybe you need to be ATPL rated before you get into the seniority list as I'll be damned if I'm going to support a list that has fresh students getting seniority ahead of a solid experienced OTS pilots. I know this could drift into the 200 hour airline fo discussion, not my intention but this needs to be considered as the cadet program is in the works.
Anyway we got an ALPA flash that stated this is not dead. That they had "overwhelming support to fix the language" and that it's being looked into post haste.

So that said to my encore brothers and sisters - stay professional, stay strong, and don't shoot yourselves in the foot.
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KAG
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Re: One list

Post by KAG »

Oh and to help those that dont believe were serious:

Resolution: WestJet pilots will immediately file for common employer with Encore.

That's the title of a LEC meeting that just took place and this resolution was unanimously passed. I wont post the rest but it's being meet with applause from our online group.
It's not over.
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yvrpilot82
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Re: One list

Post by yvrpilot82 »

I think the dust has started to settle now, and tempers are starting to come down. Yesterday most were incandescent with rage. I personally think that most WEN pilots are committed to maintaining pilot unity, and not letting this divide us. I understand the reasons for the NO vote, and am optimistic that this can be resolved.
All Encore pilots I've spoken to are just as grateful as I am for the outpouring of support from WJ pilots. All those emails sent yesterday to your MEC is seeming to have worked. Not even 24 hours and a Common Employer proposal has already been drafted.
We appreciate it.
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FlyAlberta
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Re: One list

Post by FlyAlberta »

KAG wrote: Wed May 15, 2019 6:46 pm Oh and to help those that dont believe were serious:

Resolution: WestJet pilots will immediately file for common employer with Encore.

That's the title of a LEC meeting that just took place and this resolution was unanimously passed. I wont post the rest but it's being meet with applause from our online group.
It's not over.

........ 🤘
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