AC offer AT $13 per share

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FL320
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by FL320 »

They bought $620 million in cash for $520 million plus an airline for free? Something doesn't add up there
I too wonder where are those 600M$. My guess is that Eustache bought a nice yacht for himself and another bigger one for his new friend CR. They are both having a good time while we -both pilot groups- are talking about the peanuts we might gain or loose. :rolleyes:
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Last edited by FL320 on Sat May 18, 2019 7:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Old fella
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by Old fella »

termerair wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 5:48 am
Jettime3 wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 9:34 pm
TS is in financial trouble and they already announced they were looking for buyers prior to Onyx buying WJ. It was in the media. TS stock raised the day they announced the company was on the market . But it doesn't mean they can sustain the losses if they did not secure themselves. AC needs their aircraft and likely their mutual routes shared with Rouge and the European ones Rouge is not a leader in. AC did them a favour; TS could have been the next charter to see a demise . I do not view it as a merger . It's a buyout. There are some old timers at TS who came from other now defunct airlines. Those guys have the hours . Won't be pretty if they have to give up their years and high flying hours to some low timer who came from a Regional recently . I'm AC now and I know there will be TS pilots who have been flying since I was a little guy. My respect to them but I still think this is going to go CIRB . I see both sides of the equasion. Word in the flight deck is they should be BOTL . But maybe that will not need to happen if AC keeps TS separate. My wife and me actually prefer TS when we fly , they have a distinct level and it's better than Rouge , comfortable, entertainment, more professional onboard crews and better aircraft . Maybe AC should look at that , make Rouge the LCC and put TS in its own league of distinction.
I, personally, wouldn't call it financial trouble when you're holding 620 millions in cash at the bank with zero debt... i agree TS was not generating surpluses on a regular basis but you have to understand that TS was in the middle of a strategic plan that was going to improve its profitability within 2 years.

And NO, the Transat group did not look for a buyer. They are/were nowhere near closing their doors. They were approached by different players, one of them being AC. As a public company traded on the stock market they had to disclose that information. For some reasons we will probably not know right away, AC is on its way to win the game and i am quite sure the share price was not the only argument.

In my opinion, it is not a coincidence those 2 major announcements (ONEX buying WJ and AC buying TS) took place a few days apart. I am pretty sure AC felt the danger to see TS go with WJ to develop the international market. AC, with the purchase of TS, is protecting itself on top of grabbing a handful of cash. Smart move from an investor point of view. To say that AC has saved Transat from a foreseeable closure is a bit pretentious imho. On the other hand, i believe TS liked very much the idea of the HQ remaining in YUL (lots of politics in the background i am sure...). I see it as an arranged marriage where both companies have something to gain.

I really really really hope the 2 pilot groups will work together in a smart way if a merger has to happen. Our 2 pilot groups deserve better than fighting over their ego. For most TS pilots, the blue star is their career first choice, not the left over option from an AC PFO letter in their young age. Some have even turned down AC a couple of times when at Air Transat. Both parties have gains to be made if we all remain somehow reasonable and respectful of each other.

But first, let's wait for that transaction to go through all the many steps it has to pass...!

And maybe then we will see each other in the briefing room in a few years! Cheers!
What I have been hearing over the few years from the traveller chattering class is AT offers a very good value added product and quality service. Rouge on the other hand has generated some less than stellar views from the same chatty crowd that we are familiar with.Perhaps those frequent flyer types would be disappointed if AT changed colours to Rouge, who knows.
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islandguy
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by islandguy »

Indeed, a happy merger is what EVERYONE should be hoping for—none of this 'I want mine AND I don't want you to get yours' nonsense. Just think of it this way—whoever comes out on top is going to have to fly with whoever comes out on the bottom for the rest of their career. Ask the old guard Air Canada and Canadian pilots how well it worked when animosity ruled in the flight planning room.

That said, I don't honestly know if there's a realistic way to achieve everyone being happy—so perhaps 'equally unhappy' is the best case scenario :S
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by fruitloops »

Transat Balance sheet
Transat Balance sheet
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by fruitloops »

balance sheet part 2
balance sheet part 2
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rudder
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by rudder »

I think a bigger hurdle than the competition bureau will be the ACPA scope language.

At a minimum, if acquired airTransat will meet the definition of an ‘affiliate’. Therefore, pilot positions may only be occupied by pilots who’s names appear on the AC pilot seniority list. Therefore seniority integration must occur.

Operationally, there are also significant issues. Paint job. Schedule. Fleet. Routes. All corporate decisions. However, the ability to hold multiple AOC’s appears restricted. Currently just AC and Rouge. Not clear that additional AOC’s are permitted and unlikely that ACPA will allow the purchase as a back door to expand Rouge beyond current contractual fleet limits and accordingly expand the volume of the AC pilot population subject to the downgraded WAWCON.

Should be interesting to watch this unfold.
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thesimplelife
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by thesimplelife »

islandguy wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 7:54 am
Indeed, a happy merger is what EVERYONE should be hoping for—none of this 'I want mine AND I don't want you to get yours' nonsense. Just think of it this way—whoever comes out on top is going to have to fly with whoever comes out on the bottom for the rest of their career. Ask the old guard Air Canada and Canadian pilots how well it worked when animosity ruled in the flight planning room.

That said, I don't honestly know if there's a realistic way to achieve everyone being happy—so perhaps 'equally unhappy' is the best case scenario :S
The best contract is usually when all parties walk away a little unhappy.
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thesimplelife
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by thesimplelife »

rudder wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 9:17 am
I think a bigger hurdle than the competition bureau will be the ACPA scope language.

At a minimum, if acquired airTransat will meet the definition of an ‘affiliate’. Therefore, pilot positions may only be occupied by pilots who’s names appear on the AC pilot seniority list. Therefore seniority integration must occur.

Operationally, there are also significant issues. Paint job. Schedule. Fleet. Routes. All corporate decisions. However, the ability to hold multiple AOC’s appears restricted. Currently just AC and Rouge. Not clear that additional AOC’s are permitted and unlikely that ACPA will allow the purchase as a back door to expand Rouge beyond current contractual fleet limits and accordingly expand the volume of the AC pilot population subject to the downgraded WAWCON.

Should be interesting to watch this unfold.
I hope you are right.........................
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by florch »

DOH won't happen.
BOTL won't happen.
Relative seniority. You'll hold your approximate percentile.

Read your history. CIRB will decide for you if you can't and the result will be Relative Seniority.

That's what happened with AC/CA and also with C3/Royal/Canjet.

No dog in the race, but I would like to see expectations in line with what will happen so hopefully there isn't 20 years of animosity to come.
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thesimplelife
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by thesimplelife »

florch wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 1:11 pm
DOH won't happen.
BOTL won't happen.
Relative seniority. You'll hold your approximate percentile.

Read your history. CIRB will decide for you if you can't and the result will be Relative Seniority.

That's what happened with AC/CA and also with C3/Royal/Canjet.

No dog in the race, but I would like to see expectations in line with what will happen so hopefully there isn't 20 years of animosity to come.
Relative seniority works when you're merging two groups of similar size, not with a 3000+ group with 600. I don't see it happening.
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by florch »

thesimplelife wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 2:05 pm


Relative seniority works when you're merging two groups of similar size, not with a 3000+ group with 600. I don't see it happening.
In this one instance only, size doesn't matter.
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thesimplelife
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by thesimplelife »

florch wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 2:43 pm
thesimplelife wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 2:05 pm


Relative seniority works when you're merging two groups of similar size, not with a 3000+ group with 600. I don't see it happening.
In this one instance only, size doesn't matter.
So in your opinion a top A330 Captain who's been at AT for 15 years should slot in with 25-30 year pilots at AC? Pilots who were flying before they even had a license?

Yeah... No
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florch
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by florch »

I didn't invent it and I'm not married to it, but if I was forced to bet, this is where I'd put my money. A top TS Capt has way more than 15 years. The airline is 32 years old. So if there are any 30+ year TS Captains I imagine they deserve fairly high seniority after a merge.

Tell me what you think will happen. Please reference examples of actual mergers from the past to explain your answer.
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by thesimplelife »

florch wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 2:56 pm
I didn't invent it and I'm not married to it, but if I was forced to bet, this is where I'd put my money. A top TS Capt has way more than 15 years. The airline is 32 years old. So if there are any 30+ year TS Captains I imagine they deserve fairly high seniority after a merge.

Tell me what you think will happen. Please reference examples of actual mergers from the past to explain your answer.
And that's why DOH makes sense.
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by florch »

Maybe. We'll see.
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by Yycjetdriver »

The only thing worse than a company with its headquarters located in Quebec...... One with two headquarters in Quebec.
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by goingnowherefast »

Put yourself in the other pilot's position and ask how you'd expect to be treated.

Not gonna happen, but what if Delta buys AC, how should that merger go. 3000 pilots vs 15000.
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thesimplelife
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by thesimplelife »

goingnowherefast wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 9:46 pm
Put yourself in the other pilot's position and ask how you'd expect to be treated.

Not gonna happen, but what if Delta buys AC, how should that merger go. 3000 pilots vs 15000.
Date of hire. It really doesn't get much simpler than that.
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thesimplelife
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by thesimplelife »

People made the choice to go to a company with fast upgrades and therefore also took on the risk.

If someone at AT has 25 years of seniority and is a 330 skipper, by all means they should have 25 years and be able to bid the same or similar.

If someone took the Jr upgrade at year 6-10 at AT and slides over to AC it's only fair they hold year 6-10 at AC and whatever that might hold.

Relative seniority doesn't work for a few reasons one of which is there will be some very young and jr pilots slid into the top 1/3 of the list where they will sit pretty for the rest of their lives as everyone around them retires.

Are people saying it's fair to have a 45 year old AT pilot slide into a list at AC where everyone is 55-65? Just because that's where their "relative seniority" was?

I don't.
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by Victory »

goingnowherefast wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 9:46 pm
Put yourself in the other pilot's position and ask how you'd expect to be treated.

Not gonna happen, but what if Delta buys AC, how should that merger go. 3000 pilots vs 15000.
BOTL since I'll be making more money anyways
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by Dry Guy »

Victory wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 2:35 am
goingnowherefast wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 9:46 pm
Put yourself in the other pilot's position and ask how you'd expect to be treated.

Not gonna happen, but what if Delta buys AC, how should that merger go. 3000 pilots vs 15000.
BOTL since I'll be making more money anyways
This is why BOTL with pay protection makes the most sense to me. TS pilots get the comfort in knowing their current income won't be hurt. AC pilots get the comfort that their career path won't be hurt. AC can even keep the 4 year flat pay for AC new hires which is a huge cost savings for them. Is it weird that a 30 year A330 Captain is now a NB FO or RP? Yeah but they are still getting paid the same so they may even enjoy it. It could be much worse when your airplane just got sold.
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by av8ts »

Dry Guy wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 4:11 am
Victory wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 2:35 am
goingnowherefast wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 9:46 pm
Put yourself in the other pilot's position and ask how you'd expect to be treated.

Not gonna happen, but what if Delta buys AC, how should that merger go. 3000 pilots vs 15000.
BOTL since I'll be making more money anyways
This is why BOTL with pay protection makes the most sense to me. TS pilots get the comfort in knowing their current income won't be hurt. AC pilots get the comfort that their career path won't be hurt. AC can even keep the 4 year flat pay for AC new hires which is a huge cost savings for them. Is it weird that a 30 year A330 Captain is now a NB FO or RP? Yeah but they are still getting paid the same so they may even enjoy it. It could be much worse when your airplane just got sold.
Really BOTL. Comfort in knowing pay won’t be hurt??? There’s way more to life than pay. Vacation schedule, monthly schedule are just 2 I can think of that that would be horrible going from a senior Capt go a BOTL FO
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FL320
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by FL320 »

thesimplelife wrote:
Sat May 18, 2019 10:23 pm
People made the choice to go to a company with fast upgrades and therefore also took on the risk.
Fast upgrades is a combination of circumstances and the same is happening at AC; people didn't choose AT for the fast upgrades.
If someone took the Jr upgrade at year 6-10 at AT and slides over to AC it's only fair they hold year 6-10 at AC and whatever that might hold.
I am in this situation and I agree with you 100%.
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by Dry Guy »

av8ts wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 4:32 am

Really BOTL. Comfort in knowing pay won’t be hurt??? There’s way more to life than pay. Vacation schedule, monthly schedule are just 2 I can think of that that would be horrible going from a senior Capt go a BOTL FO
Their airplane got sold.
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FL320
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Re: AC offer AT $13 per share

Post by FL320 »

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