DOH merge.

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Fanblade
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Fanblade »

Victory wrote: Sat May 18, 2019 10:24 am I have a feeling it's Transat people posting this kumbaya stuff. Let it go to the arbitrator. At least there is no way they would allow DOH.
I'm AC. Based on the users posting most of the Kumbaya stuff is coming from the AC side.

Why?

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indieadventurer
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by indieadventurer »

Victory wrote: Sat May 18, 2019 10:24 am I have a feeling it's Transat people posting this kumbaya stuff. Let it go to the arbitrator. At least there is no way they would allow DOH.
I have no horse in this race but sending AT pilots to the BOTL doesn't seem objectively right, just like a 6 year AT 330 captain maintaining their position, once the dust settles.

Would that hypothetical 6 year AT 330 captain getting 6 years AC seniority and bidding whatever that would afford them not be fair?
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Victory
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Victory »

indieadventurer wrote: Sat May 18, 2019 10:55 am Would that hypothetical 6 year AT 330 captain getting 6 years AC seniority and bidding whatever that would afford them not be fair?
People like this are going to be the major losers in the deal. Some people are going to go from WB Captain to NB FO.
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altiplano
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by altiplano »

Victory wrote: Sat May 18, 2019 11:10 am
indieadventurer wrote: Sat May 18, 2019 10:55 am Would that hypothetical 6 year AT 330 captain getting 6 years AC seniority and bidding whatever that would afford them not be fair?
People like this are going to be the major losers in the deal. Some people are going to go from WB Captain to NB FO.
I doubt it. I think there will be some kind of status protection (prob 320CA) for the initial transition by which time they would hold 320 CA whatever the outcome.

I don't think anyone at AC wants to see a toxic fight here, but a fair agreement/settlement and to get to work improving our contract with our employer. But there is no doubt if AT comes in with high seniority demands it will get toxic quick.

I'm hearing that AT already had a committee preparing for seniority merger before the deal was ever announced. I heard their position is all AT CAs go to AC 330 CA seniority levels. I understand junior CAs at AT are under 10 year seniority and as low as 5 year seniority. Expecting to merge at a 25-35 year seniority level? At a 40-50% pay increase, and everything else you'll get joining? Get real.

Every AT pilot will win in this deal however it lands. Even a narrow body seat ie. 320 in present status with YOS pay. Higher pay than present position, better/employer paid benefits, better work rules, a pension, profit share, and upward mobility to those eventual 40-50% raises... Sounds pretty fracking good.

There is zero benefit in this deal for AC pilots. However it goes we lose something... but try to take it all with a moonshot and there's going to be a long fight.
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RRJetPilot
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by RRJetPilot »

My prediction is they are merged at a 2for1 or 3for1 year ratio. So that 6 year 330 captain at AT will be slotted in at 3 years AC seniority. Then they will run a massive bid and you can bid on anything you can hold. Many more 330 positions so lots of AC guys will be able to go wide body. Most TS guys will be going 320 or 737 CA, some back to FO. Now the question is will they be pay protected to their last position at AT?
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Fanblade
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Fanblade »

There is never bump and flush. The company would never agree. Too expensive.

I get people like to speculate. But at the bare minimum make sure it's based on realism.

At this point we have no idea how the competition bureau will view this. Will WJ apply as an intervener and push for partial divestiture.

It's likely. The result who knows.

Chill
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Fanblade
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Fanblade »

altiplano wrote: Sat May 18, 2019 11:43 am
I heard their position is all AT CAs go to AC 330 CA seniority levels. I understand junior CAs at AT are under 10 year seniority and as low as 5 year seniority. Expecting to merge at a 25-35 year seniority level?
I hope that is just BS rumour stuff. But yes that would certainly start a war. Force AC pilots to go in the extreme opposite direction.

It would be exactly what we don't want to happen
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thesimplelife
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by thesimplelife »

Fanblade wrote: Sat May 18, 2019 12:50 pm
altiplano wrote: Sat May 18, 2019 11:43 am
I heard their position is all AT CAs go to AC 330 CA seniority levels. I understand junior CAs at AT are under 10 year seniority and as low as 5 year seniority. Expecting to merge at a 25-35 year seniority level?
I hope that is just BS rumour stuff. But yes that would certainly start a war. Force AC pilots to go in the extreme opposite direction.

It would be exactly what we don't want to happen
If this happens there will be riots in the airport.
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by termerair »

altiplano wrote: Sat May 18, 2019 11:43 am I'm hearing that AT already had a committee preparing for seniority merger before the deal was ever announced. I heard their position is all AT CAs go to AC 330 CA seniority levels. I understand junior CAs at AT are under 10 year seniority and as low as 5 year seniority. Expecting to merge at a 25-35 year seniority level? At a 40-50% pay increase, and everything else you'll get joining? Get real.
And this is how to start a freak out show... None of us will benefit from this kind of false rumors. Please remain reasonable and state your facts if you have them. There is no way this kind of details are being discussed at this stage. Don't see ourselves as a key factor in this transaction, we are only employees...
Every AT pilot will win in this deal however it lands. Even a narrow body seat ie. 320 in present status with YOS pay. Higher pay than present position, better/employer paid benefits, better work rules, a pension, profit share, and upward mobility to those eventual 40-50% raises... Sounds pretty fracking good.

You are right in some aspects. However, and even if nothing has been discussed nor decided, don't you think it is going to be heartbreaking for some guys to loose their A330 seat when they had made clear career choices? Money is not everything. The TS pilots have it pretty good as well and may have to surrender some of their candy conditions. This is not a black and white situation.
There is zero benefit in this deal for AC pilots. However it goes we lose something... but try to take it all with a moonshot and there's going to be a long fight.
I don't agree. A large number of AC pilots will benefit from the addition of the 30 or so airbus (a330 but especially the 15 new A321neo). All those tails will be able to, at least, cross the atlantique. In my eyes it will widen the horizon for many, especially for those who are/will be on the A320 fleet.

I am offering you my point of view just to show a different perspective. We all have something to gain if we remain respectful, reasonable and open minded... imho
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Fanblade
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Fanblade »

I like your post.

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Re: DOH merge.

Post by TSAM »

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Re: DOH merge.

Post by DanWEC »

For people at AC worried that this will cause a large drop in seniority, it would hardly be noticable. 600 pilots spread from yesterday to 30 years, and many being hired every month. There will be a good chunk below a new AC hire today as well as hiring continues at a large rate at TS.

Also, they're coming with a fleet of great airplanes. 321neo LR's and 330's. Nobody is getting bumped. Hopefully it's all very civilized and positive! I personally think it's terrific.
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by ahramin »

Most of the AC pilots I have spoken to expect all TS pilots to go bottom of the list as per their collective agreement. Has this ever happened in any merger in North America? Anywhere?
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by thesimplelife »

ahramin wrote: Sat May 18, 2019 6:33 pm Most of the AC pilots I have spoken to expect all TS pilots to go bottom of the list as per their collective agreement. Has this ever happened in any merger in North America? Anywhere?
No.

Most AC pilots are extremely selfish and it's the reason pay and working conditions lag so far behind the rest if north america
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by confusedalot »

Victory wrote: Sat May 18, 2019 11:10 am
indieadventurer wrote: Sat May 18, 2019 10:55 am Would that hypothetical 6 year AT 330 captain getting 6 years AC seniority and bidding whatever that would afford them not be fair?
People like this are going to be the major losers in the deal. Some people are going to go from WB Captain to NB FO.
Bang on. That's the way it has always been.
Screw the the f*#&er, I want his seat, and I want it now. Cuz I deserve it by divine intervention.

Some things in humanity never change.

Sad really. Except for the victor of course.

Been there done that, on the losing side of course.
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Fanblade
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Fanblade »

ahramin wrote: Sat May 18, 2019 6:33 pm Most of the AC pilots I have spoken to expect all TS pilots to go bottom of the list as per their collective agreement. Has this ever happened in any merger in North America? Anywhere?
The contract says no such thing. It wouldn't matter even if it did.

Most AC pilots I talk to know full well that BOTL is not a rational response. But I will give you that there are few hot heads out there and as always they are some of the most vocal.

Every group has them.
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by John1234 »

I don’t know many Ac Pilots that expect botl. However it is tough position for allot of pilots hired in recent years at Ac. They stand to lose the most from this deal in future earnings, not to mention past earnings already sacrafised by choosing the best route to Ac through regionals. Transat Pilots come out ahead financially under all circumstances, they can be wide body fos and earn more then a 330 cpt. I believe a 50% years of service would be the fairest deal, as well as a restructured collective agreement hopefully eliminating 4yfs flat pay. Transat Pilots still make out better long term and softens the blow to Ac guys/gals. It’s not going to be easy but it makes absolute no sense in my mind why transat Pilots should be entitled to the stuff being said on here.
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by digits_ »

John1234 wrote: Sun May 19, 2019 7:32 am I don’t know many Ac Pilots that expect botl. However it is tough position for allot of pilots hired in recent years at Ac. They stand to lose the most from this deal in future earnings,
How? Why? Pay isn't going down. Just because someone else would, hypothetically, catch a break, doesn't mean you are losing money.

Air Transat consists -among other things- of planes and pilots. The pilots are merging into AC. The planes, you could have some arguments, but either way, whether it's keeping the original AT planes or the planes are going to be replaced, AC will be operating more planes after the merger than before the merger. Let's say, worst case scenario for AC pilots, that the AT pilots get the right to fly those spanking new airplanes. How will this negatively affect AC pilots? I truly don't see it. Those planes wouldn't be there if it wasn't because of the AT merger.
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by 126.75 »

I think the issue going forward is how fractured the AC group is, and how entrenched they are into their own camps. My camp is to spend time with the wife and kids.

I am at Rouge and have been for about 4 years. I work less days per year than my ML counter parts and earn more money than them (compared with ML friends). I have the ability to get most days off that I want, and can "generally" choose the kind of flying I want.

There are ML guys who despite the fact EVERY rouge pilot can get most days off they want to be at home with their families want to protect a broken seniority system that protects a smaller portion of the membership (say 1/3). These top 33% of guys can get most of their days off (if not swapped) these are the guys that also want to destroy LOU74 (rouge) rip it up and put it behind them, despite the fact almost everyone at rouge is generally pretty happy. I understand that rouge is not perfect, but I think it's been very good for many people.

If I was CEO for a day, I would look at having all of AT's A330-300s go to ML and maybe 6-8 of the A330-200s as well (for thinner routes that the ML767 is doing right now like YYC-NRT/YOW-LHR plus a few trans cons) and have the rest of the 330-200s come to rouge. As it would be a huge let for the WBs to come to rouge, I would provide all rouge WB with ML augment and fatigue rules and ML hourly pay. If ACPA could consider that you could also merge the rouge 330 into the 321/320/319 operation and have the rouge NB pay scale basically pay grouped with the new wide body (AT is doing it now so it is not rocket science). ACPA should be able to extract some gains from this efficiency and spent it on some high value item like perhaps vacation improvements (hope the AT guys don't see how much we get "compensated" for vacation). The 321/NEOs and maybe 737s can be sent to ML or rouge as needed and fit into the ratios.

I am at Rouge and sit in the low 60%s of the AC seniority list, and would be about 50% on the AT list, so DOH would actually have my relative seniority improve.

I think the conversation around socialized bidding needs to be more at the forefront. I did not ask for 300 people to go ahead of me (whether they bring airplanes or not). All I care about is spending time at home with the wife and kids. A socialized position like rouge allows that. Many AC guys want seniority and I think we should leave that alone, but on that same vein many guys want socialized bidding so we should leave that alone too. I hope we at AC realize many of our AT colleagues are valuable addition to our ranks and BOTL will not happen. We need to come together and have a mutually agreed upon solution.

I think a DOH solution where AT guys bid into our newly increased positions with the new fins taken into account with no category protections from their previous position (ie a 5 year AT 330 skipper can't maintain WB captain) would be the best way. Any AC pilot who gets bumped would get a RIR back to where ever they were reduced from. Most (all?) junior AT skippers would be able to hold a NB C position at AC which would still be either similar pay or a pay increase from their previous position. I would also make sure everyone (AC and AT) just skips the whole flat pay BS and hits formula as a one time merger pack with the company (eventually would like to see flat pay reduced to 1 year/probation only).

Anyhow, buckle up!
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by altiplano »

126.75 wrote: Sun May 19, 2019 10:22 am I am at Rouge and have been for about 4 years. I work less days per year than my ML counter parts and earn more money than them (compared with ML friends). I have the ability to get most days off that I want, and can "generally" choose the kind of flying I want.
If your priority is time off at home, which infers you aren't working extra overtime days, how are you making more than a mainline pilot same type/status?
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