DOH merge.

[altiplano]

It isn't going to be a full ratio integration top to bottom, or DOH.

The arbitrator will be loathe to award any big gains to one group solely at the expense of the other group.

You will possibly see the merge point start further down the list ie. below junior WB CA or senior LCC 767 CA or something... possibly you will see a seniority discount of some sort. ie 30 years AT get slotted around 20-25 AC, 20 years around 12-15, etc.

There will be status protections for a few years to manage the training requirements/break in period, delay the hit some may take... but in the end, when the bid opens up with an integrated list, all but the most senior 20% of AC guys will lose spots, and see delayed progression, AT guys will make some earnings gains and see better progression, stability, benefits. A few will see big windfall gains immediately - your most senior guys - but it won't be all AT CAs get mainline widebody or something...

Then we'll get age 67 and a recession, fin count will shrink, we'll all be fucked wondering why they ever did that...

If everyone comes to the table reasonably, we can get past it. I know AC MEC wants to see a smooth and fair integration if the deal goes through, but if AT MEC comes with demands for mainline WB for all they won't accept it and we'll all be in the hands of am arbitrator.

We all need to reduce our expectations.

[ahramin]

If everyone comes to the table reasonably, we can get past it. I know AC MEC wants to see a smooth and fair integration if the deal goes through, but if AT MEC comes with demands for mainline WB for all they won't accept it and we'll all be in the hands of am arbitrator.

We all need to reduce our expectations.

I think there is a bit of a misunderstanding between whoever invented this TS WB to AC WB rumour and reality. TS does not have WB positions. All 330 positions are also 321 positions. The most junior 321 CA is paid and holds 330 CA status even though he or she has never flown a 330. So the idea that TS pilots expect some sort magic AC WB CA spot doesn't make any sense if you know the facts. I believe what the TS pilots want is a seniority list integration that is fair and then will bid whatever spot they personally think makes sense for them. I'd be surprised if any of them bid WB CA because their identity is wrapped around being a WB CA. They'll bid it if they think they can hold it at their preferred base with enough seniority to allow the QOL they need. The position doesn't matter, what matters is that the integration is done in a fair way to both pilot groups. Not DOH, not ratio, not any particular method. It's way too complicated for something simple like DOH to make sense. Someone is going to have to look at the two lists, the bases, the pay, the benefits, the schedules, everything, and figure out something that will be a fair integration for the majority of pilots at the new post merger AC. Not windfall, not BOTL, fair. Basically any deal that if you turn it around and offer it to the other group, they'd take it.

I think the only people who need to reduce their expectations are the ones that think a new hire at AC should be above a 20 year pilot at TS. I'd be very interested to hear from anyone who genuinely believes that an arbitrator would decide BOTL for one group under the other.

[altiplano]

If everyone comes to the table reasonably, we can get past it. I know AC MEC wants to see a smooth and fair integration if the deal goes through, but if AT MEC comes with demands for mainline WB for all they won't accept it and we'll all be in the hands of am arbitrator.

We all need to reduce our expectations.

I think there is a bit of a misunderstanding between whoever invented this TS WB to AC WB rumour and reality. TS does not have WB positions. All 330 positions are also 321 positions. The most junior 321 CA is paid and holds 330 CA status even though he or she has never flown a 330. So the idea that TS pilots expect some sort magic AC WB CA spot doesn't make any sense if you know the facts. I believe what the TS pilots want is a seniority list integration that is fair and then will bid whatever spot they personally think makes sense for them. I'd be surprised if any of them bid WB CA because their identity is wrapped around being a WB CA. They'll bid it if they think they can hold it at their preferred base with enough seniority to allow the QOL they need. The position doesn't matter, what matters is that the integration is done in a fair way to both pilot groups. Not DOH, not ratio, not any particular method. It's way too complicated for something simple like DOH to make sense. Someone is going to have to look at the two lists, the bases, the pay, the benefits, the schedules, everything, and figure out something that will be a fair integration for the majority of pilots at the new post merger AC. Not windfall, not BOTL, fair. Basically any deal that if you turn it around and offer it to the other group, they'd take it.

I think the only people who need to reduce their expectations are the ones that think a new hire at AC should be above a 20 year pilot at TS. I'd be very interested to hear from anyone who genuinely believes that an arbitrator would decide BOTL for one group under the other.

Couldn't agree more. BOTL isn't going to happen, nor is windfall. But what is "fair"... I'm not so sure we'll see that either...

[ahramin]

BOTL isn't going to happen, nor is windfall. But what is "fair"

Well, if everyone plays their cards correctly, this situation should lead to an improvement in the conditions of the entire pilot group. Fair would be all pilots get some of that improvement.

I think the less time we spend trying to make sure that those other pilots over there don't get any benefit, and the more time we spend trying to benefit all of us, the better off each of us will be individually. The alternative is a forced agreement where everyone is pissed off and everyone hates going to work.

As soon as the deal is done, it's time for all AC and TS pilots to start thinking of themselves as AC pilots. Period.

[altiplano]

As soon as the deal is done, it's time for all AC and TS pilots to start thinking of themselves as AC pilots. Period.

Right on. Whatever happens when the paint is dry that's where we need to be

But I'm not so certain there will be across the board gains. I know Transat pilots are going to see gains here, most AC pilots though? Not so much.

I don't have a problem if guys on the other side are getting improvements, I have a problem when it's 100% the result of my loss though.

I hope I'm proved wrong and a mutually beneficial integration solution comes. I guess we'll see. But I hope everyone at Transat sees the other side of it, guys here could be losing hundreds of numbers, after years of stagnation things are finally starting to move, now this... Anyway you slice that it's hard to take.

[plhought]

What about the AMEs?

Both AC and AT represented by same union (IAMAW), both with collective agreements that include maintaining seniority in the event of acquisition/merger. Lots of AC new hires with 2-3 year seniority about to get royally pooched by incoming Transat employees.

[Dry Guy]

What about the AMEs?

Both AC and AT represented by same union (IAMAW), both with collective agreements that include maintaining seniority in the event of acquisition/merger. Lots of AC new hires with 2-3 year seniority about to get royally pooched by incoming Transat employees.

I'd be curious to know if Air Canada has hired more people in the last 2-3 years than the entire work force at Transat. If they have it would seem slotting Transat people above them will piss off more employees than it will placate.

[DanWEC]

I'd be curious to know if Air Canada has hired more people in the last 2-3 years than the entire work force at Transat. If they have it would seem slotting Transat people above them will piss off more employees than it will placate.

I've said this before in this thread- It's not like Everyone at TS has been there for 30 years. There's a fairly even distribution from 0-30, with more day 0's being hired every month.
As far as I see it, not only is the entire group just a fraction of AC, everyone would dovetail in pretty homogeneously. For your average AC hire there would be just as many people below you as above. Zero sum.

Cheers

[FL320]

If everyone comes to the table reasonably, we can get past it. I know AC MEC wants to see a smooth and fair integration if the deal goes through, but if AT MEC comes with demands for mainline WB for all they won't accept it and we'll all be in the hands of am arbitrator.

We all need to reduce our expectations.

I think most of us at AT want to see a smooth and fair integration as well. I personally have no problem giving up my WB position as long as I can keep the same salary/benefits and the same base. Flying WB is definitely not for me and if I had the choice I would never do it again. It’s boring, jet lagged and always tired takes its toll on the body. I know many colleagues who share the same opinion.

[Takeoff OK]

.

[rudder]

If either list is non-DOH (AC) then DOH is out the window as even a possible outcome.

Take a look at the last couple of arbitrations south of the border. Weighted average of status/category and longevity. Fight has been over what weight to be used for each.

Biggest argument that ACPA will make is that the economic value of a TS WB seat is the equivalent of an AC NB seat and that TS pilots had no career expectation to a $300/hr WB seat. Therefore ACPA will argue that all of the TS pilot positions are de facto NB positions which will significantly affect weighting for status/category.

It will be an interesting process. Extreme positions will be pointless. And it definitely will not be settled on internet bulletin boards.

Best result of discussion here is to acknowledge that the 2 employers made a decision to consolidate and now the pilots must deal with the implications of that transaction.

There is significant disparity between the 2 pilot contracts. Hopefully the merger creates an opportunity to fix the shortcomings in the ACPA collective agreement.

[tdp19]

Hey there, all you junior AC people posting ridiculous things while failing to reflect what the wiser members of your group are actually thinking:

Would you rather Onex buy us? Would you rather Onex grab our slots and start injecting real money into the fight? Would that be a better outcome for your career progression?

Think on that for a bit, and this time use your actual brain, instead of your ass.

I would way rather onex buy transat. Competition is good in aviation... Not to mention westjet is a disaster right now so again YES i would love for that to happen

[Daniel Cooper]

I've said this before in this thread- It's not like Everyone at TS has been there for 30 years. There's a fairly even distribution from 0-30, with more day 0's being hired every month.
As far as I see it, not only is the entire group just a fraction of AC, everyone would dovetail in pretty homogeneously. For your average AC hire there would be just as many people below you as above. Zero sum.

That may be true if AC was also evenly distributed but they have quite a junior demographic after many retirements and large hiring for the last few years. If an evenly distribute group is merged into a junior group the junior one is going to take a disproportionate amount of damage. And that doesn't even account for the improved WAWCON the TS pilots would get with a straight DOH merge. Such a deal would be quite lopsided in TS's favor.

[altiplano]

Would you rather Onex buy us? Would you rather Onex grab our slots and start injecting real money into the fight? Would that be a better outcome for your career progression?

Yes, I hope that happens.

How about you? Where would you rather go?

[atphat]

Would you rather Onex buy us? Would you rather Onex grab our slots and start injecting real money into the fight? Would that be a better outcome for your career progression?

Yes, I hope that happens.

How about you? Where would you rather go?

Great. Look at that attitude. Here's a tip Takeoff. When you get to the end zone, act like you've been there before.

[altiplano]

Attitude?

It's not personal. It's just the way it is.

The aquisition isn't even confirmed yet. I'm sure Transat shareholders hope Onex swoops in with a big bid too...

This is a huge hassle and distraction from other things we should be dealing with. If it does go through it will negatively impact the career of most of my colleagues. There is no benefit to AC Pilots at all.

[atphat]

Lol. I was talking about the Transat fellow.

I agree with what you’re saying

[altiplano]

Okay.

I'll reiterate also -

That I'm against the acquisition is not personal to any Trsnsat pilots. If it does go through, I'll move forward with what we've been dealt, we'd be colleagues, and would have to move forward together for a fair deal, and a better contract.

[FL320]

This is a huge hassle and distraction from other things we should be dealing with. If it does go through it will negatively impact the career of most of my colleagues. There is no benefit to AC Pilots at all.

Remember you’re just a number in a big corporation. Our CEOs do not care what is fair or not for you or us. And I am pretty sure your beloved employer will remind you that you are not essential, can be replaced and free to leave if you’re not happy with the corporate’s decision. But he already knows that you’ll never leave.

[altiplano]

LOL... No shit! I work at AC, that goes with the territory. In fact our CEO reminded us of that personally on one of his recent "Roadshows".

Doesn't mean I can't have an opinion and vocalise and write it. Free speech, man, get with the program.

Besides, "if you don't like it leave" is a bullshit argument. We can affect change, following the contract, not taking overtime, not extending duty days, voting as a Union member, voting as a shareholder, etc... all that sends a message, the more that do it, the louder it gets.

[rudder]

Neither the TS nor the AC pilots have any say in the execution of the corporate transaction UNLESS either collective agreement contain actionable provisions (consent/consequence/etc).

Good time to consult the union lawyers....

[Just another canuck]

…

[altiplano]

Would you rather Onex buy us? Would you rather Onex grab our slots and start injecting real money into the fight? Would that be a better outcome for your career progression?

Yes, I hope that happens.

How about you? Where would you rather go?

Would you rather it go to AC or TUI/some rich Chinese company with deeper pockets than AC/Onex combined? Because I'm sure they're knocking at the door too. That would be very bad for AC. How do you think it would affect your career progression then?

FYI, no TS pilots want this either with the exception of a few at the bottom I would think. I chose Transat for the better QOL and time off. You all speak so highly of AC salaries yet if you divide a Transat pilots salary by number of days worked, we're way ahead. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I guess I have to say goodbye to my 6 day pairings. And the 48, 72 and sometimes 96 hour layovers. And the CCQ/MFF program which greatly benefits many of us and provides two great flying seasons. I know I will pick things up on the other end I never had but I chose TS for these reasons.

We didn't ask for this either. I hope it goes smoothly. I'll happily take the position afforded to me after a bid and fair deal, so long as it's not BOTL. And I will very much show up to work a happy man and willing to greet and work with my new colleagues as I have with enthusiasm at Transat in the past.

I really wouldn't care who else were to buy Transat.

I guess you're saying that you'd rather work for a Chinese airline investor thwack Onex... I don't know, if you think that's a good plan then that is fine with me.

Nor do I really care what you have or think you may lose at Transat, that's nothing for me.

I just rather we weren't buying you... it just is what it is and it's a negative affect on me and most of my colleagues here now. If you can't accept that, I'm sorry.

Don't get offended, as I said, nothing personal, if this comes to pass, and we ever flew together, I'm sure that we'd have a great pairing and fun layover. I don't have any animosity toward you and will move ahead if/after it all settles.

[Just another canuck]

…

[Stu Pidasso]

I feel for the Transat Pilots, dealing with ACPA. You have nothing to worry about, it most definitely will not be BOTL (against the delusional thoughts of some.) However it also will not be DOH, my advice is keep your expectations in check. AC does not have a DOH list for you to merge into.

AC is a great Airline to work for, but like you I had no plans to ever work for them. Nor did I ever apply. There are certain pockets of arrogance that is nothing but laughable, most from the right seat of a Dash 8 hired in the mid to late 90's. That hiring boom saw anyone with a pulse (and a Pilots Licence) get hired.

The good news is there are some fantastic people here and a great Management team.

Guaranteed the two groups will never agree and the list will be decided by an Arbitrator. Enjoy the summer, this will take awhile.