DOH merge.

[laserstrike]

Above post is spot on, how would a Transat pilot be able to complain about being allowed to hold his same seat out of Senority, with a pay raise? Obviously they should have to join the bottom of the list at AC...they started working here after everyone else!!

I also don’t agree with these fences protecting certain groups. What kind of fence is going to protect the 3 yr guy here? I could care less about myself, no matter what happens here I won’t be affected.

It will no doubt go to arbitration, unless ACPA and AC have a little something up their sleeves, which I’m starting to think they might. Our Rouge President left out of the blue this week past.

I'm hearing a lot of people agree with this sentiment. I'm glad I'm not the only one.

I chose to leave a pretty cushy job at Jazz to go to AC. My decision was pretty hard to make given I was essentially layoff protected at Jazz, had a great schedule in the left seat and it would have only continued to get better. I decided to come based on retirement and fleet projections, plus the fact I was supposed to have 600 pilots BELOW me in a year and a half. I chose to stay in the AC umbrella by doing my time at Jazz, and shouldn't be disadvantaged for my loyalty to the brand.

Now, if the majority of AT pilots slide in above me.. it will really effect potential upgrades, schedule and long term career prospects. Many of them chose to got to AT and there are a number who left the AC family (Express mostly) with no intention of working for AC. Why give them the biggest of all payoffs with seniority, pay increases and many more opportunities for widebody left seats than they would have ever seen at AT.

Let them keep their seats, and pay. But put them at the bottom. Give them YOS for pay and vacation for all I care. But when it comes to bidding rights, they should go where they belong. The bottom.

I might sound like an asshole, but this is my life here... and yes it's theirs too. But that's the risk you take going to go work for a charter airline, many of which haven't had that great of lifespan in Canada over the years.

[Fanblade]

You two are rattling war drums. You have valid points all of which will be discarded as irrelevant by an arbitrator. He has no idea nor does he care who thinks what company is better than the other. He will view it as an eye of the Beholder thing and promptly diminish it's relevance to zero.

I have never heard of a bump flush merger.

One of the first things that happens is a representation vote and choosing which contract. Transat pilots will immediately go to the greater of pay.

The Transat pilots time in will not be discarded by an arbitrator. End of story. They will never end up on the bottom. It is completely out of the realm of realism.

If you take up that kind of position we will end up in arbitration. gauranteed.

There is risk for junior AC pilots based on the last merger. Read above or ignore my warning. Your choice

Altiplano. Plus 1

[laserstrike]

You two are rattling war drums. You have valid points all of which will be discarded as irrelevant by an arbitrator. He has no idea nor does he care who thinks what company is better than the other. He will view it as an eye of the Beholder thing and promptly diminish it's relevance to zero.

I have never heard of a bump flush merger.

One of the first things that happens is a representation vote and choosing which contract. Transat pilots will immediately go to the greater of pay.

The Transat pilots time in will not be discarded by an arbitrator. End of story. They will never end up on the bottom. It is completely out of the realm of realism.

If you take up that kind of position we will end up in arbitration. gauranteed.

There is risk for junior AC pilots based on the last merger. Read above or ignore my warning. Your choice

Altiplano. Plus 1

Either way us Jr folks will be fucked. Slot them in? Fucked. Bottom? Goes to arbitration? Fucked.

So I'd rather see ACPA try to protect us at least. If it doesn't work out it doesn't work out. But I want them to try. They have a Duty of Fair Representation to protect any AC pilot on the property. AT are ALPA, they aren't ACPA. They are a charter, they aren't a real airline. ACPA owes them nothing.

[Fanblade]

You two are rattling war drums. You have valid points all of which will be discarded as irrelevant by an arbitrator. He has no idea nor does he care who thinks what company is better than the other. He will view it as an eye of the Beholder thing and promptly diminish it's relevance to zero.

I have never heard of a bump flush merger.

One of the first things that happens is a representation vote and choosing which contract. Transat pilots will immediately go to the greater of pay.

The Transat pilots time in will not be discarded by an arbitrator. End of story. They will never end up on the bottom. It is completely out of the realm of realism.

If you take up that kind of position we will end up in arbitration. gauranteed.

There is risk for junior AC pilots based on the last merger. Read above or ignore my warning. Your choice

Altiplano. Plus 1

Either way us Jr folks will be fucked. Slot them in? Fucked. Bottom? Goes to arbitration? Fucked.

So I'd rather see ACPA try to protect us at least. If it doesn't work out it doesn't work out. But I want them to try. They have a Duty of Fair Representation to protect any AC pilot on the property. AT are ALPA, they aren't ACPA. They are a charter, they aren't a real airline. ACPA owes them nothing.

Based on the last merge.

Count the number of RP's at AC. There is a real risk an arbitrator may decide they don't have a like for like on the Transat side.

It has happened already once. A straight ratio of AC:CDN pilots would have been 2:1. The bottom ended up 8:1. A sea of red on the bottom of the list.

CDN was bankrupt. CDN paid 75% less. CDN progression was brutally slow compared to AC.

It didn't matter. It was the AC new hires who got crushed.

Your better cutting a deal than rolling the dice.

[ahramin]

I can understand the AC pilot position of sending all TS pilots to the bottom of the list. Obviously if one's only concern is how well they make out with no regard for anyone else, the logical position is not to let anyone onto the list above them.

What I can't figure out is how someone can perform the mental gymnastics necessary to convince themselves that this is fair and makes sense. So far the main arguments seem to be

1. "I chose to go to AC based on no merger, therefore current TS pilots should be below me". One could just as easily say that current TS pilots chose to go to AT based on no merger, and should therefore be above all current AC pilots after the merger.

2. "I made sacrifices to get to AC and therefore should be above all current TS pilots". Current TS pilots made sacrifices as well to get to TS, how is this different? I must admit that I always found the "sacrifice" or "paying dues" argument ridiculous for any pilot position so maybe it's something I'll just never understand. Most airline pilots in Canada didn't make it to the majors until after their 30s and chose to put up with poor conditions at 704 operators to get there. Does this mean current new hires don't deserve to be here? Why not simply insist anyone under 30 joining the majors automatically go to a B scale since they didn't have to go through what the rest did?

3. "If the current TS pilots are fairly integrated in the seniority list, it will hurt my seniority". Well, if the current TS pilots are put to the bottom of the list, it will probably hurt their seniority. If the fleet increases by 20% and the pilot pool increases by 20% and the seniority list gets merged fairly, how does this hurt upgrades? It's laughable to suggest that somehow pay protecting someone and putting them to the bottom of the list is fair. Think of a pilot one week away from their upgrade at TS getting sent to the bottom of the list, but it's ok because they get pay protected as a WB FO.

All of these arguments seem to boil down to the notion that the lists should not be merged fairly because it would be unfair for the current AC pilots to get anything less than all the gains from the acquisition of TS. BOTL is not happening, there isn't an arbitrator on the planet who is going to state that the proper position for seniority #1 at TS is below the newest hire currently at AC. If the merger goes through, all AC and TS pilots will be AC pilots within a year or so. We can all fight amongst ourselves trying to get ahead by pushing everyone around us down, or we can try to become a unified group of AC pilots and finally make some gains.

[laserstrike]

Not everyone is joining AC in their 20's you know. Many many people in their 30's and 40's. All of which are now going to get fucked sideways.

[fish4life]

I’d say the guys at AT are getting kinda screwed as well, between all my friends at AT and AC the AC guys might make more but they also work way more. A lot of my AT friends are going to lose the good schedules they currently enjoy. One of the reasons why some people chose AT instead of AC was the schedule.
They were ok taking less pay for the other quality of life factors so the idea of “they should be happy they are getting a pay raise” may make sense because you chose AC because of the higher earning potential but for a lot of people they have other goals.

[ahramin]

I guess it depends on what you mean by that. What are the career expectations for a 40 year old joining AC today if the merger doesn't happen and how does that change if the merger does happen?

[laserstrike]

Do we really know how many aircraft are actually coming over? Where they will go etc.

At the end of the day when it comes time to vote, I need to see the big picture. If the fleet is growing by the same or more than the eqivelant pilots coming over then I can deal with it. But do we really think that's going to happen? The 737s will likely be gone, the older 310's, gone. What does that leave us with, 20 330's and a dozen 320s? Are all the future orders going to see the line? Is AC going to sell them off to the higest bidder? Are the 7373 MAX's going to leave the fleet and these NEOs only replace what we already had? Etc. etc.

[Fanblade]

Truth be told 20 years ago I had a heck of time watching the majority of a bankrupt company's pilots pile in front of me on the AC list. It made no sense to me. It seemed unjust at the time.

My point is only this. An arbitrator won't care about your expectations. It's irrelevant what you think your future was going to bring. His/her picture will be a snap shot of today.

That is reality

How AC might move forward with combined entity is also irrelevant.

[laserstrike]

I guess it depends on what you mean by that. What are the career expectations for a 40 year old joining AC today if the merger doesn't happen and how does that change if the merger does happen?

The career expectation for me was hopefully find a narrow body left seat in 5 years and sit pretty working my way up the list on that type till retirement. Will this now make that a 10 year goal? 15?

[PMLPilot]

I chose to leave a pretty cushy job at Jazz to go to AC. My decision was pretty hard to make given I was essentially layoff protected at Jazz, had a great schedule in the left seat and it would have only continued to get better. I decided to come based on retirement and fleet projections, plus the fact I was supposed to have 600 pilots BELOW me in a year and a half. I chose to stay in the AC umbrella by doing my time at Jazz, and shouldn't be disadvantaged for my loyalty to the brand.

This is exactly how I feel. Not to mention also giving up a DC pension and 2 weeks of vacation.

What if the Transat pilots came over retroactively in relation to the PML? Give them their DOH from Transat but also give us PMLer’s our DOH from Jazz/sky/Georgian Top them up as we were.

[ahramin]

I guess it depends on what you mean by that. What are the career expectations for a 40 year old joining AC today if the merger doesn't happen and how does that change if the merger does happen?

The career expectation for me was hopefully find a narrow body left seat in 5 years and sit pretty working my way up the list on that type till retirement. Will this now make that a 10 year goal? 15?

So you think it's possible that adding aircraft and pilots could triple the upgrade time? Are you able to share how you calculated that? Are you assuming the new duty regs will be implemented or current duty regs?

[TSAM]

.

[tdp19]

I'm a 3rd year F/O at AC and as much as I like the idea of the junior AC people that have been posting about BOTL it will NOT happen nor do I really think it should. AS TSAM said they are coming into it with airplanes and experienced crews of which AC needs. Selfishly I don't want this merger for my career but AC management doesn't care about me or any other pilot. We are all a number to them, easily disposed off as CALIN has said in past roadshows when the talk of better pay and working conditions came up.... I've been discussing this with a few colleagues that went through the CDN merger (still disgruntled to this day, and I do see why) and I think its best to come up with a deal between pilot groups. I don't like uncertainty of arbitration and would rather know what we are getting ahead of time and put it to a vote. I know it is difficult because AC doesn't technically have a DOH seniority list but I would be okay with a 1.5 - 1 YOS, meaning if you have 1.5 years at Transat you slide in at 1 year on seniority list at AC and vise versa. I would stand to loose about 450-500 numbers but if you look at my overall percentage before and after the merger it is virtually the same. Around 77%. TSAM, do you think that is fair?

[FL320]

Not everyone is joining AC in their 20's you know. Many many people in their 30's and 40's. All of which are now going to get fucked sideways.

Life is not fair and not only in aviation; you’d better realize it asap and live with it. Jazz is not AC, they’re just a subsidiary. You joined Jazz, not Air Canada... Accepting these shitty conditions instead of going to Transat, Westjet, Sunwing is your own decision - if you have to blame someone, blame yourself.
I’ve also spent my time flying around at Jazz, do you seriously believe that flying a RJ or Dash around is worth flying a wide body around the world? I’ve done both and there’s no comparison:as an employer perspective looking for competencies, I know what I would do...
I am 100% for a fair deal, I am willing to give up my Captain seat for a fair deal, but come on...going BOTL because a pilot from Jazz is unhappy is not serious. Again, what competencies do you bring to AC from your previous job at Jazz compared to Air Transat (and Sunwing and Westjet and Cathay and so on..) pilots? Going to AC is not my choice, it will be imposed. Some of you think that it’s an upgrade for us but it won’t be the case for everyone. 2 friends resigned from AC and one who recently joined already regrets the move. Don’t believe it’s a privilege being bought.

[Stu Pidasso]

Here we go with the revisionist history, Canadi>n was never bankrupt and we didn't get a 25% pay raise. Air Canada on the other hand did go bankrupt.

If I earn $15 / hour at McDonalds and work 20 hours a week, then start working 30 hours a week I earn more money - but it is not a pay raise.

Canadi>n Pilots out earned AC on every contract up until the last one prior to the merger. AC Pilots flew substantially more hours than Canadi>n. All in it was a slight pay raise but a far cry from 25%. Contract for Contract I would have taken the CAIL one hands down. Not to mention CAIL's smallest jet was a 737, verses a RJ.

No RP's ; No RJ's.

Now back Transat, if ACPA goes to an Arbitrator with a BOTL solution we will get eaten alive. You have to present a reasonable list and have solid arguments. "Windfall Gains" is something a reasonable Arbitrator understands. Taking the number one 330 Captain and giving them a 50% plus raise, while punishing the junior AC Pilots is outrageous.

For a newhire AC Pilot to think a Transat 330 Captain should go junior to them is equally outrageous. It is unfortunate for anyone who quit Transat to come to AC, but nothing new there. Plenty of history of Pilots quitting one Airline to join another and regretting it. It is the mindset of sh*tting on your fellow Professional Pilots that has this industry in such a mess.

We definitely want to do our best for all the AC Pilots, where the problem lies is within ACPA. The new MEC Chair is still sputttering about the last merger, 19 years ago, even though he personally made out like a bandit. We'll see who is appointed to a Merger Committee, their track record is somewhat suspect.

[TSAM]

.

[Victory]

I expect all current Rouge pilots will be brought back to mainline. Rouge will be a completely separate airline and be manned by Transat pilots and they will not be merged. The ACPA will agree to this because it means the end of the B-Scale and prevents the Transat pilots from messing up everyone's careers.

[altiplano]

Going to AC is not my choice, it will be imposed. Some of you think that it’s an upgrade for us but it won’t be the case for everyone. 2 friends resigned from AC and one who recently joined already regrets the move. Don’t believe it’s a privilege being bought.

You should totally resign if this goes through, it's bullshit that they're sending you here...

This isn't the lifestyle you wanted... let alone having to be hated by the media and all the passengers...

You should send a message and walk.