DOH merge.

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yycflyguy
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by yycflyguy »

tintin42 wrote: Wed May 29, 2019 8:55 am I just have a question for AC pilots. Just for fun let’s pretend that twe had a open market with the US like the EU have and American airlines bought AC. They have more than 4 times the amount of pilots that AC have, more planes and better pay. My question is what do you think would be a fair way to merge the two list? AC pilots going

BOTL
Since they are being bought and will get a pay raise, AC pilot should go BOTL otherwise it’s going to screw up the progression of AA pilots.

DOH
I know that AC doesn’t have a seniority based on date of hire, but maybe they could find a equivalent ( those who postponed their hiring for 1 or 2 years could get the equivalent of the earlier date and the ex Canadian could get a fictional date to match their seniority). But the merger should be by DOH because that is the best way to have a seniority relative to your experience.

Ratio
AC should keep their % of seniority because you don’t want your pilot at 5% of the seniority list drop to 15-20% of the list. That would be the way to do it so no one is more junior or more senior than the where before.

or something else?

I know that because of the rules it wouldn’t be possible and since it’s another country it would cause some differences, but I would like you to pretend like another airline munch bigger than yours would buy AC. What would you consider fair?
That's a good hypothetic but for it to be more accurate you'd have to point out that AC as a scheduled airline was failing and that Air Canada Vacations was propping up the rest of the company. Then how would the lists be integrated? It's been pointed out that it doesn't matter what the pilots want or think is fair. It'll 99% end up in front of an Arbitrator that will use precedence and will be swayed by legal opinion of what is "fair". Meaning NOBODY will be happy.
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rudder
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by rudder »

Dovetail. Ratio starting from an AC number that is not #1 (think around 650 which is approximately the number of top pay WB CA positions at current AC).

Ratio formula may not be evenly dispersed through the remainder of the list either. Factors for consideration are current pay and tenure.

Won’t be pretty. Some feelings will be hurt. It isn’t the first time. May not even be the last time.

Bigger issue for all concerned is resulting number of A scale pilot jobs, B scale pilot jobs (Rouge), and year 1-4 non CA pay.
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altiplano
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by altiplano »

I'd go to American at the bottom of the list today if they hired me, so I guess anything better I could get on a merger would be alright... YOS credit and a bit of recognition? Perfect... I'm getting a big raise and more opportunity from day 1.

Or I'd take something similar to the recent American/US Airways/America West arbitration (2016).

Weightings given to:
-heavy retirement numbers approaching and advanced age & seniority at US Airways
-Current seat, equipment type, and career expectations prior to merger
-improved future opportunities for the America West group
-higher pay levels/status at primarily at American, somewhat at US airways
-BOTL for bottom US Airways pilots hired after 2005
-"fences" including set ratio of widebody seats guaranteed to AA pilots, base exclusions/limitations

Arbitrator:
"Over time," the panel noted, "former America West pilots will have the opportunity to fill the jobs vacated by retiring east pilots."

US Airways pilots:
“I don’t think we won, but we got something that was fair,” said one.

Another said “A bunch of {legacy American} people hired after me are senior to me now, but I’m not going to complain.”


And why would he complain? He got a big raise, a contract improvement, and a bowl full of future opportunity that never existed before.

The views presented in this forum are so simplistic, DOH or Ratio or... no... it's not either or...

Fact is it is a complex calculation of multiple factors that will result in a fair deal.
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BenniFlyer
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by BenniFlyer »

Thank you altiplano. +1

Top position at each company is different, and therefore career progression at each company is different all the way down the list. If I came from AT and a bunch of AC pilots who were hired after me were ahead of me, I don’t think I could be justifiably upset. Yes, if I was all the way at the bottom I would be upset.

That to me is a give and take scenario that I hope we can find.
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tintin42
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by tintin42 »

Some of you guys seems to think that Air Transat is a second teer company with bad conditions that was about to fall apart. I just want to educate you on some of the good things we have going for us that we're afraid to loose. Air Canada pilots salaries top about 20% higher on the 330 than AT but we are higher on the 320 (we have the same pay scale for both) . However most of the good things at AT are harder to quantify.

We don't feel like numbers, I can call crewsked, my chief pilot even our VP and just say my name and they know exactly who I am. All the managers, SOCC employees, HR, etc are bilingual. The people are amazing and we know who we fly with. We like to hang out and almost 90% of my layover I go eat with the other pilot and often a bunch of FAs. Most of our layover are longer than 20h and are at nice touristic destinations. We have options to split one schedule between two pilot to only fly half the time or the popular mini blocks with max 65h and 16 days off. Minimum 80h guaranteed per month and credit for ground school and sim. No split duty. We have a minimum of 1 hours of credit per 4h away from base. Better perdiems. I could go on, but the point is that there is a lot of important stuff other than the top salary.

I know Air Canada have a very good CA, I'm just saying that we have a good one also. I understand your fear of losing what you have but I think most pilots at Transat feel the same way even if we don't talk about seniority.

As for some of you thinking that the airline was falling apart, we are in restructuration so the last few quarterly reports are negative but someone approach us to buy. Transat AT then went public that they negotiated with potential buyers. We're not selling because we are about to be bankrupt far from it. And if AC is looking to buy us, I guess it's because Transat adds value to them.
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DanWEC
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by DanWEC »

Ticket prices won't go up at all, since labour prices will drop! Don't worry about all this now, they've got plenty of time to figure out how to turn this info a depression of wages and conditions for all!

Hey, for sure TS will go to BOTL, and hell, also everyone must start at year 1 of 4 year flat because of it, that will keep everyone at AC happy right, since they had to do it to?! And also since they wouldn't run the possibility of losing of maybe 0-20 seniority numbers over their lifetime? Well, they're also going to all go on the Rouge payscale! But wait, No more B scale expansion right? Ah they'll open up the agreement and give all you guys a 2k bribe to accept it.
There you go, everyone happy right? Oh, except for the fact that since you agreed to open up the CA to allow all TS to go B scale, they also snuck in a teeny a provision that all new incoming would now lose the YOS for an upgrade, which is the majority of the salary improvement that AC has for salary over TS in the mid-term. Lowers the bar for the whole industry, but who cares right? Doesn't affect the 95% of voters, grandfathered in prior to the potential merger! Given the Jazz vote we could see that as a reality, and CR would be laughing so hard it actually worked that he pisses his Hugos.

OK now.... before I get jumped on, the preceding was all tongue-in-cheek, dripping with sarcasm, but I have a point to make.

We're all in this together guys. The state of our paychecks in Canadian Aviation are from bad deals and greedy pilots. We are in one hell of a time where we can command the WOWCON we deserve as human beings, we just have to hold strong and not take the first bad offer that could actuyally include some of the above. Let's make the best changes happen!

It would be pretty pie-in-the-sky to think we could get the best of both worlds- TS pilots get a slight hourly pay bump, and AC's Airbus and 737 fleet are suddenly working 10 days a month. :)

My guess it would be a little mix of the opposite. We're giving up our schedule and amazing company culture for a bit more money, and AC guys see some incoming that expands their pool, and maybe has a very marginal effect on almighty seniority.

If (And it's a big if.) TS ops get rolled into AC ops it will between 1-2 years down the road for the plans to actually hit the line. Plenty can change by then, it's all good. Safe flights all!

D
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yycflyguy
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by yycflyguy »

tintin42 wrote: Wed May 29, 2019 6:43 pm Some of you guys seems to think that Air Transat is a second teer company with bad conditions that was about to fall apart. I just want to educate you on some of the good things we have going for us that we're afraid to loose. Air Canada pilots salaries top about 20% higher on the 330 than AT but we are higher on the 320 (we have the same pay scale for both) . However most of the good things at AT are harder to quantify.

We don't feel like numbers, I can call crewsked, my chief pilot even our VP and just say my name and they know exactly who I am. All the managers, SOCC employees, HR, etc are bilingual. The people are amazing and we know who we fly with. We like to hang out and almost 90% of my layover I go eat with the other pilot and often a bunch of FAs. Most of our layover are longer than 20h and are at nice touristic destinations. We have options to split one schedule between two pilot to only fly half the time or the popular mini blocks with max 65h and 16 days off. Minimum 80h guaranteed per month and credit for ground school and sim. No split duty. We have a minimum of 1 hours of credit per 4h away from base. Better perdiems. I could go on, but the point is that there is a lot of important stuff other than the top salary.

I know Air Canada have a very good CA, I'm just saying that we have a good one also. I understand your fear of losing what you have but I think most pilots at Transat feel the same way even if we don't talk about seniority.

As for some of you thinking that the airline was falling apart, we are in restructuration so the last few quarterly reports are negative but someone approach us to buy. Transat AT then went public that they negotiated with potential buyers. We're not selling because we are about to be bankrupt far from it. And if AC is looking to buy us, I guess it's because Transat adds value to them.
Everyone has their idea of what's important but I like the anonymity of AC and when you are at work it's new faces all the time. Keeps it fresh for me.

At AC we also have positions that tick the boxes that you say are beneficial. Availability of 20+ hour layovers. We are paid for all sims and ground school now. We have the same 1 in 4 rule for long TAFB pairings. We have also been fighting hard for augmentation on overseas flying and it has improved a bit (still not where it should be).

I'm not sure I buy that AT wasn't in financial trouble. The stock was $4. That's why buyers were interested. It got to the point where the value to buy its assets could be justified.
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laserstrike
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by laserstrike »

tintin42 wrote: Wed May 29, 2019 6:43 pm Some of you guys seems to think that Air Transat is a second teer company with bad conditions that was about to fall apart. I just want to educate you on some of the good things we have going for us that we're afraid to loose. Air Canada pilots salaries top about 20% higher on the 330 than AT but we are higher on the 320 (we have the same pay scale for both) . However most of the good things at AT are harder to quantify.

We don't feel like numbers, I can call crewsked, my chief pilot even our VP and just say my name and they know exactly who I am. All the managers, SOCC employees, HR, etc are bilingual. The people are amazing and we know who we fly with. We like to hang out and almost 90% of my layover I go eat with the other pilot and often a bunch of FAs. Most of our layover are longer than 20h and are at nice touristic destinations. We have options to split one schedule between two pilot to only fly half the time or the popular mini blocks with max 65h and 16 days off. Minimum 80h guaranteed per month and credit for ground school and sim. No split duty. We have a minimum of 1 hours of credit per 4h away from base. Better perdiems. I could go on, but the point is that there is a lot of important stuff other than the top salary.

I know Air Canada have a very good CA, I'm just saying that we have a good one also. I understand your fear of losing what you have but I think most pilots at Transat feel the same way even if we don't talk about seniority.

As for some of you thinking that the airline was falling apart, we are in restructuration so the last few quarterly reports are negative but someone approach us to buy. Transat AT then went public that they negotiated with potential buyers. We're not selling because we are about to be bankrupt far from it. And if AC is looking to buy us, I guess it's because Transat adds value to them.
I love being a number under the radar. I am proud of the fact the CP and managers don't know who I am.
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tintin42
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by tintin42 »

Everyone's different it's ok if you want to be just a number in a big company, I understand some want the anonymity. I like the fact that they know who I am, they don't know me because of a bad reputation, they know almost everyone. It's the same thing with the union they know almost all their members. I think that it's a more human touch. To each their own, there is not a good or bad way, just personal preferences and I prefer the Transat way.
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by BTD »

tintin42 wrote: Wed May 29, 2019 6:43 pm Some of you guys seems to think that Air Transat is a second teer company with bad conditions that was about to fall apart. I just want to educate you on some of the good things we have going for us that we're afraid to loose. Air Canada pilots salaries top about 20% higher on the 330 than AT but we are higher on the 320 (we have the same pay scale for both) . However most of the good things at AT are harder to quantify.
My French isn’t what it never was, but it looks like the AT contract distinguishes between wide and narrow body.

Just to put numbers to it for those who haven’t looked. Based on the latest contract for both companies in 2019 which are available publicly: Rounded

AC YR 12 a320 Captain Half Day/Night rate = 219.5/hr plus maybe some Nav pay.
AC YR 12 a330 Captain Half Day/Night rate = 269/hr plus Overseas 12/hr = 281/hr

AT YR 10 a320 captain rate = 203/hr plus 5 for night = half day/night 205.5/hr
AT YR 10 a330 captain rate = 223/hr plus 5 for night = half day/night 225.5/hr

Someone please double check me on this. And I get this is just one factor.

Btd
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altiplano
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by altiplano »

tintin42 wrote: Wed May 29, 2019 7:52 pm Everyone's different it's ok if you want to be just a number in a big company, I understand some want the anonymity. I like the fact that they know who I am, they don't know me because of a bad reputation, they know almost everyone. It's the same thing with the union they know almost all their members. I think that it's a more human touch. To each their own, there is not a good or bad way, just personal preferences and I prefer the Transat way.
How does that affect seniority list integration?
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tintin42
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by tintin42 »

BTD wrote: Wed May 29, 2019 8:33 pm
tintin42 wrote: Wed May 29, 2019 6:43 pm Some of you guys seems to think that Air Transat is a second teer company with bad conditions that was about to fall apart. I just want to educate you on some of the good things we have going for us that we're afraid to loose. Air Canada pilots salaries top about 20% higher on the 330 than AT but we are higher on the 320 (we have the same pay scale for both) . However most of the good things at AT are harder to quantify.
My French isn’t what it never was, but it looks like the AT contract distinguishes between wide and narrow body.

Just to put numbers to it for those who haven’t looked. Based on the latest contract for both companies in 2019 which are available publicly: Rounded

AC YR 12 a320 Captain Half Day/Night rate = 219.5/hr plus maybe some Nav pay.
AC YR 12 a330 Captain Half Day/Night rate = 269/hr plus Overseas 12/hr = 281/hr

AT YR 10 a320 captain rate = 203/hr plus 5 for night = half day/night 205.5/hr
AT YR 10 a330 captain rate = 223/hr plus 5 for night = half day/night 225.5/hr

Someone please double check me on this. And I get this is just one factor.

Btd
The narrow body pay is just for B737 and they're both going away soon, The A320 pilots get paid widebody because it's the same position bid for us (320/330) and since we can go to Europe with the LR it's basically the same job. So a A320 top scale at transat is being paid 4$/h more than a AC top scale A320 capt. Our minimum guaranteed is 80h is that the same at AC?
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by laserstrike »

tintin42 wrote: Wed May 29, 2019 9:58 pm
BTD wrote: Wed May 29, 2019 8:33 pm
tintin42 wrote: Wed May 29, 2019 6:43 pm Some of you guys seems to think that Air Transat is a second teer company with bad conditions that was about to fall apart. I just want to educate you on some of the good things we have going for us that we're afraid to loose. Air Canada pilots salaries top about 20% higher on the 330 than AT but we are higher on the 320 (we have the same pay scale for both) . However most of the good things at AT are harder to quantify.
My French isn’t what it never was, but it looks like the AT contract distinguishes between wide and narrow body.

Just to put numbers to it for those who haven’t looked. Based on the latest contract for both companies in 2019 which are available publicly: Rounded

AC YR 12 a320 Captain Half Day/Night rate = 219.5/hr plus maybe some Nav pay.
AC YR 12 a330 Captain Half Day/Night rate = 269/hr plus Overseas 12/hr = 281/hr

AT YR 10 a320 captain rate = 203/hr plus 5 for night = half day/night 205.5/hr
AT YR 10 a330 captain rate = 223/hr plus 5 for night = half day/night 225.5/hr

Someone please double check me on this. And I get this is just one factor.

Btd
The narrow body pay is just for B737 and they're both going away soon, The A320 pilots get paid widebody because it's the same position bid for us (320/330) and since we can go to Europe with the LR it's basically the same job. So a A320 top scale at transat is being paid 4$/h more than a AC top scale A320 capt. Our minimum guaranteed is 80h is that the same at AC?
How many years of service do you get from the right to the left seat?
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tintin42
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by tintin42 »

altiplano wrote: Wed May 29, 2019 9:20 pm
tintin42 wrote: Wed May 29, 2019 7:52 pm Everyone's different it's ok if you want to be just a number in a big company, I understand some want the anonymity. I like the fact that they know who I am, they don't know me because of a bad reputation, they know almost everyone. It's the same thing with the union they know almost all their members. I think that it's a more human touch. To each their own, there is not a good or bad way, just personal preferences and I prefer the Transat way.
How does that affect seniority list integration?
How does pay affect the seniority list? It's just part of the big package of pros and cons of each company and something we would loose in case of a merge.


How many years of service do you get from the right to the left seat?
[/quote]

Just one year of service get accounted for new captain pay, so you start at year 2. Right now the upgrade time is 5-6 years so it takes 14-15 years to reach top scale compared to 12 at AC. I don't know which one is the best when you consider that for the first 4 years you make more money at AT and you need more money in the beginning of your career or the probably bigger overall sum of the 14 years. Like I said it's not perfect, but not as terrible as some of you make it seems.

On that note I'll let you guys hype yourself up on the subject and try to stop commenting. There's enough uncertainty on that subject that I don't want to add the fact that it might be a bad working environment. That's the one of the most important point, it's fun to work at Transat and some of you don't seem to think about the fun factor, just the money. I think it's way more important to be happy than to make more money. I would love to fly with some of my good friends at AC, but I really hope the majority of the pilots there see us as equal.
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by BTD »

tintin42 wrote: Wed May 29, 2019 9:58 pm
BTD wrote: Wed May 29, 2019 8:33 pm
tintin42 wrote: Wed May 29, 2019 6:43 pm Some of you guys seems to think that Air Transat is a second teer company with bad conditions that was about to fall apart. I just want to educate you on some of the good things we have going for us that we're afraid to loose. Air Canada pilots salaries top about 20% higher on the 330 than AT but we are higher on the 320 (we have the same pay scale for both) . However most of the good things at AT are harder to quantify.
My French isn’t what it never was, but it looks like the AT contract distinguishes between wide and narrow body.

Just to put numbers to it for those who haven’t looked. Based on the latest contract for both companies in 2019 which are available publicly: Rounded

AC YR 12 a320 Captain Half Day/Night rate = 219.5/hr plus maybe some Nav pay.
AC YR 12 a330 Captain Half Day/Night rate = 269/hr plus Overseas 12/hr = 281/hr

AT YR 10 a320 captain rate = 203/hr plus 5 for night = half day/night 205.5/hr
AT YR 10 a330 captain rate = 223/hr plus 5 for night = half day/night 225.5/hr

Someone please double check me on this. And I get this is just one factor.

Btd
The narrow body pay is just for B737 and they're both going away soon, The A320 pilots get paid widebody because it's the same position bid for us (320/330) and since we can go to Europe with the LR it's basically the same job. So a A320 top scale at transat is being paid 4$/h more than a AC top scale A320 capt. Our minimum guaranteed is 80h is that the same at AC?
Thanks for filling in the blanks.

It’s just a discussion, and anything anyone can add is good info. I don’t think anyone has really put down working for AT. We are all just curious how this will go down if it does go through. I’m hopeful that we don’t screw it up.
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by av8ts »

laserstrike wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 6:59 pm
Victory wrote: Sun May 26, 2019 5:54 pm Air Canada is hiring close to 600 people a year at BOTL and many of them are just as experienced as the Transat pilots, or more.
Exactly.
I think your going to be very disappointed by the arbitrator
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by altiplano »

tintin42 wrote: Wed May 29, 2019 11:24 pm
altiplano wrote: Wed May 29, 2019 9:20 pm
tintin42 wrote: Wed May 29, 2019 7:52 pm Everyone's different it's ok if you want to be just a number in a big company, I understand some want the anonymity. I like the fact that they know who I am, they don't know me because of a bad reputation, they know almost everyone. It's the same thing with the union they know almost all their members. I think that it's a more human touch. To each their own, there is not a good or bad way, just personal preferences and I prefer the Transat way.
How does that affect seniority list integration?
How does pay affect the seniority list? It's just part of the big package of pros and cons of each company and something we would loose in case of a merge.
I think you should present "fun-factor" and " human touch" as your primary seniority weighting provisions when you get in front of an arbitrator.
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by TSAM »

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Last edited by TSAM on Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
altiplano
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by altiplano »

TSAM wrote: Thu May 30, 2019 6:57 am
altiplano wrote: Thu May 30, 2019 6:05 am
tintin42 wrote: Wed May 29, 2019 11:24 pm

How does pay affect the seniority list? It's just part of the big package of pros and cons of each company and something we would loose in case of a merge.
I think you should present "fun-factor" and " human touch" as your primary seniority weighting provisions when you get in front of an arbitrator.
I don't think that's what tintin is getting at, and would be silly to bring up at arby's. Just stating (which I believe this was mentioned earlier in the thread), about the sacrifices being made from the TS side, just as there'll be some from the AC side. There's a reason we came and stay at TS, and most of us rather not see this merger happen either. In the end if this does go through, we just want a fair deal and to be treated fairly.

And, is it just me or does it feel like this thread is going in circles?
I was responding to that as a "big package" item he mentions on a SLI discussion.

I guess it wasn't related to SLI though.

I think everyone wants a fair deal. Ratio or DOH or BOTL aren't it though. Managing expectations...
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Re: DOH merge.

Post by Dockjock »

I would not say it is fun to work at Air Canada, as a pilot. It can be fun, at times, but for the most part it is a grind. We work very, very hard and I think this is why many focus on the money. That said, I have my life away from work and wouldn’t really want the 2,3,4-day layovers away from my family that make it fun at work. AC pilots’ CBA is part of the reason AC is very profitable; it is a hometown discount. AC pilots want to live in Canada and our collective unwillingness (and inability, due to lack of really comparable airlines) to “walk away” is reflected in our WAWCON. Regardless, I hope TS’ influence as it is incorporated into AC’s culture, will be able to bring some of that balance here. As I said, we grind. Our vacation entitlement is small, and worthless. Our schedules come out mere days before the block month starts. Reserve rules are so old they are written on stone tablets. There are going to be changes on that front soon anyway, by law, but if we can collectively use this opportunity to carry forward some of the better aspects of TS, or at least become aware of them in advance of the next opportunity to make those changes, it will be for the better.
I’m personally not thrilled by the prospect of a merger but I understand it is somewhat of a defensive move rather than the perfect fit that was pursued as a blue sky idea. I really, really hope we can get the least bad outcome and then move forward such that we’re not still talking about it 10 yrs from now.
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