More grist for the F18 replacement mill..

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Duke Point
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Re: More grist for the F18 replacement mill..

Post by Duke Point »

Fighter procurement in Canada is a political joke. Accept that it is the "Canadian way"...……..we haven't been serious about the subject since 1958. Why bother now.

There is no "dogfight" that will occur over high arctic Canadian airspace......that's delusional. The U.S. would never stand idly by, and the Russians or Chinese wouldn't ever risk it. With infrared imagery available from space (unless they have figured out how not to burn fuel) at a moments notice, fighter intercepts are a ridiculous, dangerous notion anyway.

So what do we do? We do what we've always done. Debate, dawdle, cancel orders, mull over new ones. Who cares anyway. The US wont allow any North American incursion, and the "enemy" wouldn't EVER seriously risk it.

If you need Arctic "presence" (for whatever reason)....reactivate the VooDoo's from all our museums and put a couple of new engines on em…. DONE. Everything else is a HUGE waste of tax dollars that ---- I and you ---- could spend elsewhere.
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Heliian
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Re: More grist for the F18 replacement mill..

Post by Heliian »

Good point Duke.

With nuclear powered cruise missiles and space based weapons, what's the point of even having fighters in Canada?

The war mongers are leading us into buying this for profit. We can maintain sovereignty with what we have.

Who is this enemy anyways? China? Russia? The middle east?

Are we ever going to be dogfighting over red lake to stop the Chinese red army from taking over manitoba and nwo?

Even the Russians are still banging around in the bears, an armed king air could take those out.
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C-GGGQ
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Re: More grist for the F18 replacement mill..

Post by C-GGGQ »

King airs with the nuclear tipped Genie's lol now that's a thought
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laserstrike
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Re: More grist for the F18 replacement mill..

Post by laserstrike »

IMO were better off building a deep water port, or two, and increasing our Arctic fleet significantly. If we really want to protect the Northwest Passage and the Arctic.
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BMLtech
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Re: More grist for the F18 replacement mill..

Post by BMLtech »

While there is no doubt that the hornets need to be replaced, if the government is serious about the arctic, they should be looking at some P8's and a few wedgetails to replace the Auroras as well as a deep water port. Better yet would be a made in canada solution like the BBD Global based surveillance platform similar to what the UK bought. Sentinel I think they call it. At least we could keep an eye on what's going on up there.
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Duke Point
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Re: More grist for the F18 replacement mill..

Post by Duke Point »

How about deploying about a few sophisticated, heat sensitive geostationary satellites with high resolution optical capability as well??? A computer algorithm could filter out fauna, and send out alerts on the rest.

Have a guy monitoring near a phone with a hotline to Ottawa. We don't need to send a fighter up to intercept, just a phone call to the "intruding state" from our Foreign Affairs Minister inquiring as to what their intentions are would be completely sufficient.

In this geo-economic / political landscape, the days of "activating interception fighters" to counter a "threat" are so passe.

As far as "contributing to an International effort" abroad. We aren't serious enough to commit to force that would "seriously make a difference". No one would notice if we didn't even show up.

DP.

…..continue the debate on which "shiny new jet" the Government should waste a spectacular amount of Taxpayer money on, that will only burden us all with decades of debt, and make ZERO difference to our national identity.
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AuxBatOn
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Re: More grist for the F18 replacement mill..

Post by AuxBatOn »

That’ll work well with cloud cover...

Sending physical assets to meet the foe says something about sovereignty. Satellites don’t.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: More grist for the F18 replacement mill..

Post by goingnowherefast »

CS300...I mean A220-300 would make a decent made in Canada surveillance platform. Maybe add a few gas tanks while doing the other mods, and it can stay airborne for a long time.

Too late now, but could have disguised a good amount of subsidies for Bombardier. Same deal as the Boeing contracts with the US military.
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frosti
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Re: More grist for the F18 replacement mill..

Post by frosti »

Duke Point wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:47 am reactivate the VooDoo's from all our museums and put a couple of new engines on em…. DONE.

Everything else is a HUGE waste of tax dollars that ---- I and you ---- could spend elsewhere.
Pretty much the dumbest idea I've heard yet. Nice try though. :lol:

Our convoluted fighter procurement program is only a reflection of our vastly intelligent Canadian public, along with their ideas, to what our military needs. The government is in no hurry to replace the Hornets because Canadians as a whole, don't really care, about anything really, beyond their borders. Ask your average Canadian and their response will ultimately be "the US will protect us". While that may be true, the US will only defend their own interests, which includes Canadian resources. It will only take a US president to say enough is enough and give Canada an ultimatum to which we will bend over to like the cowards we are.
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ehv8oar
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Re: More grist for the F18 replacement mill..

Post by ehv8oar »

laserstrike wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:29 pm IMO were better off building a deep water port, or two, and increasing our Arctic fleet significantly. If we really want to protect the Northwest Passage and the Arctic.
Canada has to pull it's weight in terms of defence spending, its a reasonably rich country and should be spending at least 2% of GDP on defence like the U.S and UK. As part of NATO its important that we do so. This includes buying the right type of aircraft to play our part in defending NATO countries as a whole.

Probably the best way Canada can do this is to provide a strong deterent from any aggression into North American (Canadian) territory. There's noway that Canada can afford a big enough navy to protect its huge coastline so in my opinion more investment in the air force is the way to go.
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Duke Point
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Re: More grist for the F18 replacement mill..

Post by Duke Point »

frosti wrote: Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:35 pm
Duke Point wrote: Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:47 am reactivate the VooDoo's from all our museums and put a couple of new engines on em…. DONE.

Everything else is a HUGE waste of tax dollars that ---- I and you ---- could spend elsewhere.
Pretty much the dumbest idea I've heard yet. Nice try though. :lol:

Our convoluted fighter procurement program is only a reflection of our vastly intelligent Canadian public, along with their ideas, to what our military needs. The government is in no hurry to replace the Hornets because Canadians as a whole, don't really care, about anything really, beyond their borders. Ask your average Canadian and their response will ultimately be "the US will protect us". While that may be true, the US will only defend their own interests, which includes Canadian resources. It will only take a US president to say enough is enough and give Canada an ultimatum to which we will bend over to like the cowards we are.
Please. You knew I wasn't serious right? Those museum relics are rotten to the core, and would likely shed parts all the way down the runway with the first thrust application.

Fighters are an archaic concept perpetuated to groom the egos of "muscle flexing countries" and fighter jocks who live in a bygone era. Drones and sattelites can do nearly everything a fighter jet can do at a fraction of the cost.

Canada will never deploy a fighter force large enough to make -any- difference in -any- theater anyway.

Canada hasn't been serious since the Arrow program was cancelled....why would we be? There is NO threat coming from Russia, China or North Korea that ---any fighter of any capacity--- that Canada could purchase---in the numbers we intend to purchase---would make ANY difference.

Reality sucks if you're an aspiring fighter pilot, but that era has passed, so we shouldn't WASTE money on it.

Ten to twelve new Boeing P8's, about 30 Predator drones and a proper fleet of Icebreaking patrol ships, and a couple of Heavy Icebreakers would be more than sufficient to protect our boarders.....from what exactly, I don't know.

FYI…..No country will be invading Canada......and -any- "serious incursion" ( if there ever is one....EVER) will be dealt with on the political stage.

DP.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: More grist for the F18 replacement mill..

Post by goingnowherefast »

Politics would be lop sided if there's no physical deterrent. Russia wants the arctic, so sends planes to poke into the airspace, challenge sovereignty. Canada sees it on RADAR, and phones the Russians. Russia says "what are you going to do about it? Send a 737 (P8)?"

Fighter jets are political tools. Ocassionally they get used to drop bombs on "terrorists". But primarily they're a political tool.
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Duke Point
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Re: More grist for the F18 replacement mill..

Post by Duke Point »

goingnowherefast wrote: Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:00 am Politics would be lop sided if there's no physical deterrent. Russia wants the arctic, so sends planes to poke into the airspace, challenge sovereignty. Canada sees it on RADAR, and phones the Russians. Russia says "what are you going to do about it? Send a 737 (P8)?"

Fighter jets are political tools. Ocassionally they get used to drop bombs on "terrorists". But primarily they're a political tool.
Fighters are a useless tool period, political or otherwise....what they are is fugging EXPENSIVE....and they're dangerous in the hands of "hotheads". Intercept missions are only wasteful "posturing" missions paid for by taxpayers of both Countries involved.

The idea is to "know whos there"....then find out why....not fight them. What a ridiculous notion in this day and age....Canada dogfighting Russia. Do you have any idea what type of political firestorm would erupt if Russia "invaded" our Continent? A hundered Canadian F-22's wouldn't intimidate Russia. So Russians are staying "in Russia" for other reasons. The fact remains that the US would not allow an invasion of North America....PERIOD.

"What are you going to do about it".....ridiculous comment. There are no amount of fighters that Canadians could afford that would keep Russia at bay if they had the mind to invade....and the US wouldn't even ask our permission to stop them, even on our own soil. We share the largest unguarded border on the planet with the US for a reason, and they wouldn't think twice about crossing it to protect the integrity of the Continent.

Nothing happens on this Continent militarily without the US knowing about it. For us to "deal with invaders" with force, would only be allowed by the US if they think our paltry Air Force could handle it. But it isn't going to happen anyway.

DP.
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AuxBatOn
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Re: More grist for the F18 replacement mill..

Post by AuxBatOn »

Glad to know I am a hothead. Have you ever met and interracted with a fighter pilot for more than 5 minutes? Where's your evidence that we are "hotheads"?

It's not about dogfighting. It's about asserting sovereignty.
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Re: More grist for the F18 replacement mill..

Post by rookiepilot »

Our country needs more unabashed patriots willing to defend sovereignty and what Canada stands for, not the wishy wash version espoused out there.
If that is a hothead so am I.
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pelmet
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Re: More grist for the F18 replacement mill..

Post by pelmet »

It is nice to say that there is no threat in North America and that the US can deal with it, but there are other places than North America such as out deployments in Europe where there is a threat. Our alliance of nations makes us unbeatable right now, but there is a large nation growing in power in Asia and they are aligning themselves with Russia(at least for the moment). That is a threat, whether you want to admit it or not.

Sadly, our govenrments usually will find a way to spend out money. I much prefer F35's to social engineering from lies in reports about supposed genocide.

Sorry guys, no money available for you, it is going to jet fuel to keep all of us free.
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Heliian
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Re: More grist for the F18 replacement mill..

Post by Heliian »

pelmet wrote: Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:58 pm It is nice to say that there is no threat in North America and that the US can deal with it, but there are other places than North America such as out deployments in Europe where there is a threat. Our alliance of nations makes us unbeatable right now, but there is a large nation growing in power in Asia and they are aligning themselves with Russia(at least for the moment). That is a threat, whether you want to admit it or not.

Sadly, our govenrments usually will find a way to spend out money. I much prefer F35's to social engineering from lies in reports about supposed genocide.

Sorry guys, no money available for you, it is going to jet fuel to keep all of us free.
Why don't we just align with them then.
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B208
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Re: More grist for the F18 replacement mill..

Post by B208 »

Heliian wrote: Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:16 pm
pelmet wrote: Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:58 pm It is nice to say that there is no threat in North America and that the US can deal with it, but there are other places than North America such as out deployments in Europe where there is a threat. Our alliance of nations makes us unbeatable right now, but there is a large nation growing in power in Asia and they are aligning themselves with Russia(at least for the moment). That is a threat, whether you want to admit it or not.

Sadly, our govenrments usually will find a way to spend out money. I much prefer F35's to social engineering from lies in reports about supposed genocide.

Sorry guys, no money available for you, it is going to jet fuel to keep all of us free.
Why don't we just align with them then.
I guess you admire their ‘basic dictatorship’. That puts you in esteemed intellectual company.
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Duke Point
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Re: More grist for the F18 replacement mill..

Post by Duke Point »

AuxBatOn wrote: Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:09 pm Glad to know I am a hothead. Have you ever met and interracted with a fighter pilot for more than 5 minutes? Where's your evidence that we are "hotheads"?

It's not about dogfighting. It's about asserting sovereignty.
No, they aren't ALL "hotheads".....I didn't say that. It only takes one, and an armed fighter in the hands of one who loses his cool is dangerous.

Yes....I've interacted with many former F-18 guys..... for hundreds of hours on the flightdeck. What I can't figure out is why the majority of them chose to remain FO's when they have had ample opportunity to go left. Its a bit strange.

Asserting Sovereignty? Why? Canada is a Sovereign respected nation, a member of the G8 and G20. Our opinion is taken seriously by every nation that matters. We live in a political/economic world, there is nothing that can't now be achieved through negotiation or sanctions.

Canada's issue isn't having a "fighting force" its having enough eyes on the North, and having a "presence". P8's and icebreakers.

If we "need" fighters for some reason, we can get others well maintained cast-offs cuz we might as well buy them "cheep and obsolete" because they will be for most of their service life anyway......how long do we normally keep fighters....40-45 years?

DP.
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ehv8oar
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Re: More grist for the F18 replacement mill..

Post by ehv8oar »

FYI…..No country will be invading Canada......and -any- "serious incursion" ( if there ever is one....EVER) will be dealt with on the political stage.
Saying Canada will never before threatened by an invasion of any merit is kinda shortsighted. What if a significant amount of oil is discovered in the arctic region of Canadian territory and in a few years time, when resources are perhaps getting scarcer, Russia decides it wants it.

Look at what happened in Crimea, a limited Russian invasion to get what they want and then the UN talks it out and Russia gets to stay where it is. I'm not sure that in a scenario like that the U.S would risk a full on conflict with Russia to stop them grabbing some Canadian territory.

If Canada's capable of putting up enough of a deterrent though to make Russia take longer in getting that territory then it's less likely they'd consider doing it in the first place.
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