How to improve flight training.

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PilotDAR
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Re: How to improve flight training.

Post by PilotDAR » Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:33 am

I believe that a good instructor is a good instructor regardless of what machine they are teaching on
I cannot share that opinion. An instructor who is competent on one/some types, could be an ineffective instructor on other types! Would a good instructor in a 152/172/182 also be a good person to train a pilot in a 185 (wheels/wheel skis/amphibian)? The 185 flies about the same, but handling it near and on the ground will be rather different than a 172 in any case. Yes, they might train the basics of handling in flight well in many types, but as I state, no one pilot can be good in everything!
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Re: How to improve flight training.

Post by B208 » Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:35 am

photofly wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:15 pm
Here's another question:
You have two pilots with the say 100 hours each.
One was trained on tricycle gear until solo the other was trained on and only flew tail wheel airplnes.
You owned a Cessna 172.
Which pilot would you feel less stress letting them fly your Cessna 172 without a check out?

Tailwheel guy.
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photofly
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Re: How to improve flight training.

Post by photofly » Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:40 am

B208 wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:35 am
photofly wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:15 pm
Here's another question:
You have two pilots with the say 100 hours each.
One was trained on tricycle gear until solo the other was trained on and only flew tail wheel airplnes.
You owned a Cessna 172.
Which pilot would you feel less stress letting them fly your Cessna 172 without a check out?

Tailwheel guy.
You'd pick the pilot with zero tricycle time, over the pilot with experience of both landing gear configurations?
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Re: How to improve flight training.

Post by telex » Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:05 am


Of course a pilot can fly a whole career without ever flying tailwheel, but I opine that the tailwheel experienced pilot will more naturally fly with slightly better ease and precision. Perhaps that ease and precision will benefit that pilot one day in handling an unsymmetrical plane.

Better "ease and precision" in what regard?

I disagree that single engine tailwheel experience will benefit anybody in a multi engine aircraft with an engine out.
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Re: How to improve flight training.

Post by jakeandelwood » Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:49 am

  • To fly a tailwheel aircraft one must be a good pilot.
  • Everyone pilot should be a good pilot
  • Therefore every pilot should fly a tailwheel aircraft.

Sounds like one of those weird questions on the Nav Canada wonderlic recruitment test: True or false, Joe flies a Cessna 172, according to the above statement is Joe a good pilot?
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Re: How to improve flight training.

Post by C.W.E. » Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:27 pm

I find it interesting that there are so many pilots who feel it that something as basic as learning to fly a tail wheel airplane is not beneficial to improving flying skills.

Is it because the training industry has so few instructors who can teach on one?

God forbid I suggest flying sea planes or helicopters will also improve your aircraft handling skills.

And of course there are also sail planes and gyroplane licenses that one can get.

Of all the different types of flying machines my favourite ones for pure flying fun are gyroplanes....

...so I did the training and got myself a Commercial gyroplane pilots license, which is was the license I am most satisfied to have gotten.
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Re: How to improve flight training.

Post by C.W.E. » Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:27 pm

I find it interesting that there are so many pilots who feel it that something as basic as learning to fly a tail wheel airplane is not beneficial to improving flying skills.

Is it because the training industry has so few instructors who can teach on one?

God forbid I suggest flying sea planes or helicopters will also improve your aircraft handling skills.

And of course there are also sail planes and gyroplane licenses that one can get.

Of all the different types of flying machines my favourite ones for pure flying fun are gyroplanes....

...so I did the training and got myself a Commercial gyroplane pilots license, which is the license I am most satisfied to have gotten.

...the next most satisfying one is the aerial applicators license.
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Last edited by C.W.E. on Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: How to improve flight training.

Post by telex » Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:43 pm

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Re: How to improve flight training.

Post by Mapleflt » Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:50 pm

More exposure to a variety of aviation skills is clearly beneficial. However you proposed that tailwheel training should be mandatory and that's a very different kind of suggestion !!!!
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Re: How to improve flight training.

Post by C.W.E. » Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:54 pm

More exposure to a variety of aviation skills is clearly beneficial. However you suggested the tail wheel should be mandatory and that's a very different kind of suggestion !!!!
Why?

If as you agree it improves flying skills and is so simple a thing to add to the acquisition of a PPL what is the problem?
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Re: How to improve flight training.

Post by Mapleflt » Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:07 pm

That's just the point; it's not all that simple, accessibility, cost, qualified instructors to name just a few related issues and to what end. Which specific aspect of being a pilot are you expect to magically improve, general handling, effects of controls (or over controlling). If a significant increase in industry safety could be realized there may be a case to be made legislatively but I don't see it and nor to many others.

It's a cool little skill but what's the larger application and is the gain justified by the means. Would it require ongoing currency or become a demonstrated practice soon lost in the passage of time and career progression.
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Re: How to improve flight training.

Post by C.W.E. » Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:41 pm

That's just the point; it's not all that simple, accessibility, cost, qualified instructors to name just a few related issues and to what end
I have a feeling I my suggestion is a bit to unreasonable in today's world of flying judging by the responses I am getting. :mrgreen:

But this one really puzzles me.
qualified instructors to name just a few
If a flight instructor is to inept flying wise to handle a simple tail wheel basic trainer then I guess that sums up why there is so much resistance to flying them.

I wish the colonel were still here because I am sure he would have some real good comments to add to this. :D
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Re: How to improve flight training.

Post by Mapleflt » Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:49 pm

It's just a numbers game, not a lack of desire and the skills can certainly be had if one so choices. Mandating it I'm afraid isn't the answer to some of the challenges faced by the industry.

Rote training, scripted lesson plans and a general dumbing down of the demonstrated skills is the slippery slope as I see it. Aviation is dynamic, training needs to have the latitude to respond to these dynamics and not be written in stone.

Here's one to ponder, why was fully develop spin training remove. It may not have made someone a better pilot but you sure gain a much deeper appreciation of the slow flight regime !!!!!
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Re: How to improve flight training.

Post by Kejidog » Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:07 pm

Tailwheel makes a better pilot? I am not so sure about that. I was recently up in a 170 with a local “tailwheel” guy with about 100 hours more than me I have now well over 300. I can honestly say it was a scary experience for me. Not that he was dangerous but i have never been nor would I do to a passenger what I experienced. I was thrown around bumped and jostled The whole flight. The three circuits we did i never saw a stable approach nor was being close to the center line attempted and the climb outs were scary. In my 172 i fly coordinated and can trim out to just about any stable airspeed on approach. I pride myself on smoothness and hope it shows when i take someone especially another pilot up. I don’t think that the wheel on the back gave him any aircraft handling skills that I saw anyway. So how can this make him or anyone a better aviator?
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Re: How to improve flight training.

Post by C.W.E. » Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:33 pm

Here's one to ponder, why was fully develop spin training remove.
Good question.

Judging from some of the responses here the less one is trained the better a pilot he/she will be, maybe that is the reason?.

When I was still in the advanced training business the lack of skills I found in so many pilots sure gave me a never ending supply of clients that is for sure.

Could it be because today's computerised aircraft that the industry uses has removed the need for a lot of the basic flying skills?

And flying is getting so expensive the new generation of pilots are getting licenses to fly these machines and why spend money learning skills they think they don't need
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Re: How to improve flight training.

Post by C.W.E. » Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:33 pm

delete
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Re: How to improve flight training.

Post by lownslow » Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:18 pm

5x5 wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:58 am
Here's a question - if you were designing the world's first airplane with today's infrastructure of predominantly paved runways so that prop clearance and roughness of the operating surface wan't a primary concern, would you build in dynamic instability that would manifest itself almost solely in the critical phases of transitioning from the air to the ground and the ground to the air? And by design make landing the most likely time (followed by take-off) at which loss of control would occur?
The guys at Eviation seem to think it’s a good idea:
Image
What’s weirder is their concept drawings all showed tricycle gear.
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Re: How to improve flight training.

Post by C-GGGQ » Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:37 pm

Yeah I wonder how that switch came about? Or is it available in both configs?
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Re: How to improve flight training.

Post by Mapleflt » Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:40 pm

That thing looks like the product of a Beech Starship and LearFan one night stand
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Re: How to improve flight training.

Post by mixturerich » Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:24 pm

Improve social skills and you’ll improve flight flight training. Good social skills = good CRM.
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Re: How to improve flight training.

Post by Big Pistons Forever » Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:26 pm

The GA fatal accident rate in the 1950’s was 4 times higher than it is today so I find the idea that we should return to 1950’s training programs unpersuasive.

Good hands and feet are only part of what makes a “good” pilot. Learning and applying good airmanship and pilot decision making skills are just as important. The most dangerous pilot I ever knew was very good at greasing his tail dragger on even in challenging conditions but was an absolute idiot. He eventually killed himself in an accident after some monumentally bad in flight decisions.

However ultimately what you fly is irrelevant. Developing and maintaining really good fundamental flying skills is a choice. You can choose to work at always having the ball in the
middle, always be right on the selected airspeed and altitude, always touchdown at the selected touchdown point, straight, on centreline and in the correct attitude.......or just accept what ever more or less gets you to your destination.

The best pilot I ever met was an elderly gentleman who was the post card for “been there done that”. He had a beautiful 172 and as a young instructor I sometimes flew with him. I still vividly remember how the controls hardly moved but we were always exactly on speed and every landing was a master class in precise aircraft control.

He had nothing to prove anymore but he still made every flight a quest for aeronautical perfection.

You don’t need the worlds greatest instructor to choose to make a real effort to fly as precisely and accurately as you can......
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Re: How to improve flight training.

Post by Mapleflt » Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:42 pm

Big Pistons Forever wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:26 pm
The GA fatal accident rate in the 1950’s was 4 times higher than it is today so I find the idea that we should return to 1950’s training programs unpersuasive.

Good hands and feet are only part of what makes a “good” pilot. Learning and applying good airmanship and pilot decision making skills are just as important. The most dangerous pilot I ever knew was very good at greasing his tail dragger on even in challenging conditions but was an absolute idiot. He eventually killed himself in an accident after some monumentally bad in flight decisions.

However ultimately what you fly is irrelevant. Developing and maintaining really good fundamental flying skills is a choice. You can choose to work at always having the ball in the
middle, always be right on the selected airspeed and altitude, always touchdown at the selected touchdown point, straight, on centreline and in the correct attitude.......or just accept what ever more or less gets you to your destination.

The best pilot I ever met was an elderly gentleman who was the post card for “been there done that”. He had a beautiful 172 and as a young instructor I sometimes flew with him. I still vividly remember how the controls hardly moved but we were always exactly on speed and every landing was a master class in precise aircraft control.

He had nothing to prove anymore but he still made every flight a quest for aeronautical perfection.

You don’t need the worlds greatest instructor to choose to make a real effort to fly as precisely and accurately as you can......
This is absolutely right on, well presented sir
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Re: How to improve flight training.

Post by C.W.E. » Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:56 pm

The GA fatal accident rate in the 1950’s was 4 times higher than it is today so I find the idea that we should return to 1950’s training programs unpersuasive.


I made no suggestions in that regard at all, how do you leap to such a conclusion as you did above, all I suggested was using a tail wheel airplane for the training up to solo.

Would that not be permitted by T.C. ?

Or would that be teaching be unsafe?

Please answer the two above questions.
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Re: How to improve flight training.

Post by L39Guy » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:22 pm

Let me toss this out there...if we really want pilots with good hands and feet - and the MAX issue is demonstrating that in spades - how about making an aerobatic endorsement mandatory, particularly if it is on a tail dragger? Hit two birds with one stone - better hands and feet from a tail dragger and aerobatics.

In addition to the better hands and feet aspect, learning aerobatics enhances upset recovery skills as well as being a confidence builder. The training done in the simulators is too artificial - put somebody upside down in a real aircraft and that is where the true learning really occurs.
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Re: How to improve flight training.

Post by goingnowherefast » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:27 pm

I love that idea. Strap me into a Pitts and let's go!

I would also like to buy one some day...maybe next pay raise .
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