Reading the forums Could Prevent a Disaster like the 737 Max

[pelmet]

Some may have noticed that I have brought up a lot of threads on safety related subjects. While it is unfortunate that a few have taken offense at getting at the harsh truth of learning lessons and ended up halting threads that could have had what I call a golden nugget of information, I hope that perhaps somewhere, someday a thread from here will prevent an incident.

Late last year, a 737 Max crashed in Indonesia. There was much talk about it in the news but not much technical detail. Boeing subsequently put out some information for the pilots but it appears that it was insufficient. Max pilots continued to fly their aircraft. Then another one crashed in March. But was it avoidable. There is plenty of debate but it appears that the second pilot was aware of the MCAS issue. But how familiar did he make himself in the intervening months. Unknown.

If the pilots had been reading the Pprune forum and trying to get as much info as possible, he might have come across this in November....

https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/614 ... st10311501
"The MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System) is implemented on the 737 MAX to enhance pitch characteristics with flaps UP and at elevated AOA. The MCAS function commands nose down stabilizer to enhance pitch characteristics during steep turns with elevated load factors, and during flaps up flight at airspeeds approaching stall.

MCAS is activated without pilot input and only operates in manual, flaps up flight. The system is designed to allow the flight crew to use column trim switch or stabilizer aisle stand cutout switches to override MCAS input. The function is commanded by the Flight Control Computer using input data from sensors and other airplane systems."

and this...

https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/614 ... st10311680
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmac2
"If MCAS only activates with no flap deployed, and activates most positively at slower speed and therefore likely lower altitude, then I think that my first action on intermittent runaway Stab trim close to the ground might be to pop out flaps 1 and see if that stops it. Just a thought.
It's worth pointing out that only a pilot who was aware of MCAS and knew knew it's operation parameters might think to try that. Until a few days ago there were no airline pilots who fit that description."



The information to save the Ethiopian pilots from even having to deal with the unwanted nose down trimming was out there and posted months before their final flight. They could have read it and come up with a plan in case the same thing ever happened to them. All they had to do was(and the plan would have been) to leave the flaps extended and return for landing with an annoying stickshaker problem. Instead, they are dead. I am not blaming them, but it is a good example of how digging deeper can prevent a disaster. The golden nugget was out there. But you have to search for things like this. Read the forums and dig deeper. There can be a lot of useless and even wrong information but there can be a wealth of good information.

[P_smith83]

That is true, but from my understanding the flight in that aircraft prior experienced the same issue but were able to overcome it. So where is the communication between flight crews?

[rxl]

I agree that pilots should always "dig deeper" and strive to improve their skills and knowledge, but critical safety information like this should be forthcoming from the manufacturer, not picked up off of an anonymous aviation forum.

[TeePeeCreeper]

I agree that pilots should always "dig deeper" and strive to improve their skills and knowledge, but critical safety information like this should be forthcoming from the manufacturer, not picked up off of an anonymous aviation forum.

Agreed but with “headlines” akin to the one used for this thread.... heck I don’t fly a Max but wanted to see what “nuggets of information” my friend Pelmet had on the subject.

Thanks Pelmet, guess I dodged one back there buddy! Always appreciate your posting. Again....

[pelmet]

I agree that pilots should always "dig deeper" and strive to improve their skills and knowledge, but critical safety information like this should be forthcoming from the manufacturer, not picked up off of an anonymous aviation forum.

History has proven that you can’t trust the manufacturer or the regulating authorities to provide all the vital information you need.

There is just too much stuff to know.

P.S. Glad to be of help Tp;)

[Victory]

I would like to be the second one to congratulate you on your vigilance.

[C.W.E.]

I would like to be the third.

We need more people who try and help pilots stay informed.

C. E.

[pelmet]

I would like to be the third.

We need more people who try and help pilots stay informed.

C. E.

.(CWE) has posted some very useful information over the years with his huge and wide ranging experience. One that sticks out in my mind is the hazards of trying to takeoff in a DC-3 with frost on the wings. Some out there who have bent the rules up north doing such a thing could be tempted to bend them with a DC-3 as well with its reputation for being able to handle a lot of just about anything. Who knows ., your passing on of info may have prevented a tragedy. It is the kind of thing one usually does not find out about(although ironically I did talk to a guy today who probably that did just that).

Of course, there are always the ......other types. We know their type of personality.

I remember one very experienced off strip Twin Otter pilot(a profession that had lots of damaged aircraft) from way back that wouldn't share one bit of his extensive knowledge with others when asked. Overheard his answer to another less experienced diver which was...'secrets'. Sadly, some people are just like that I guess and figure that keeping a secret(or making a sarcastic statement) is somehow reasonable. Subsequently, another driver and his cojo died in a crash. Knew them both-good guys. Likely would have happened anyways but......who knows.

Try passing on some info.

[Victory]

Just for accuracy's sake, CWE passed on that knowledge after a DC-3 crashed on takeoff with contaminated wings. I'm not saying it's his job to stop pilots from doing dumb things. It would be weird to come on here and just randomly hand out lessons.

[pelmet]

Just for accuracy's sake, CWE passed on that knowledge after a DC-3 crashed on takeoff with contaminated wings. I'm not saying it's his job to stop pilots from doing dumb things. It would be weird to come on here and just randomly hand out lessons.

Whatever the reason was for posting, it was important info, much appreciated and important. Kind of like the Max info. Who cares what the reasoning for the info being posted if it is saving your life.

But that’s just my opinion. I suppose It is possible the Ethiopian guys thought it was weird to read a post for some strange reason too. Some people actually do think like that. We will almost certainly never know.

[rookiepilot]

Try passing on some info.

Actually the below thread was awesome for that.

Whole bunch of different pilots passing on their personal scary flights or errors in judgement.
It's interesting not everyone chooses to share. I wonder why?

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 4&t=132382

[5x5]

Try passing on some info.

Actually the below thread was awesome for that.

Whole bunch of different pilots passing on their personal scary flights or errors in judgement.
It's interesting not everyone chooses to share. I wonder why?

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 4&t=132382

Ridicule and condescension could be reasons why. Possibly people don't share because they don't want to be criticized or attacked, not on the information they're providing, but their own knowledge and experience and even personalities. AvCanada isn't exactly a non-judgemental, non-threatening site.

[rookiepilot]

Ridicule and condescension could be reasons why. Possibly people don't share because they don't want to be criticized or attacked, not on the information they're providing, but their own knowledge and experience and even personalities. AvCanada isn't exactly a non-judgemental, non-threatening site.

[pelmet]

Ridicule and condescension could be reasons why. Possibly people don't share because they don't want to be criticized or attacked, not on the information they're providing, but their own knowledge and experience and even personalities. AvCanada isn't exactly a non-judgemental, non-threatening site.

Exactly. What a shame. They say people’s true character come out on anonymous forums etc on the internet.

[TeePeeCreeper]

Ridicule and condescension could be reasons why. Possibly people don't share because they don't want to be criticized or attacked, not on the information they're providing, but their own knowledge and experience and even personalities. AvCanada isn't exactly a non-judgemental, non-threatening site.

Exactly. What a shame. They say people’s true character come out on anonymous forums etc on the internet.

You got that right... re:using someone’s divorce to win an argument on the internet in a past thread of yours. I wish I knew who you were in person...

[rookiepilot]

Ridicule and condescension could be reasons why. Possibly people don't share because they don't want to be criticized or attacked, not on the information they're providing, but their own knowledge and experience and even personalities. AvCanada isn't exactly a non-judgemental, non-threatening site.

Exactly. What a shame. They say people’s true character come out on anonymous forums etc on the internet.

Oh, yes.
Like when a poster attacks another poster over his divorce when he doesn't agree with him, as we've seen you do to another poster?

You are the very last one to opine on character, sir.

I don't know either of you but that is beyond classless.

[pelmet]

I respond to bullies with an agenda in mind. Piss them off at least twice as much as they try to do to me. Two of of the worst on this site are right here on this thread. There are others as well. I can’t change the disgusting personality character of bullies(one even insinuates physical threats - all for just trying to analyze and prevent accidents). But I have to say that I do get great pleasure at seeing their rage at being treated the way the way they try to treat others (although I would much prefer to stick to the discussion of accident prevention).

You did start a good thread on black hole departures recently. It was a good subject. I could have made the same style of response as you have made on multiple threads I started in the last year which ended up stalling them or having good info permanently removed. But instead, I posted some good info to add to the thread as an example for you on how a discussion on this forum should be, even if it was started by someone I haven’t been getting along with. No sarcastic comments(like the one you appear to have just deleted), just good info. Much more professional. I challenge you to try it sometime. You will enjoy it......
viewtopic.php?f=118&t=132379

[rookiepilot]

Duplicate

[rookiepilot]

I posted some good info to add to the thread as an example for you on how a discussion on this forum should be, just good info. Much more professional. I challenge you to try it sometime. You will enjoy it......
viewtopic.php?f=118&t=132379

Wow. How did any of us ever get along without you guiding us Pelmet?

[pelmet]

Double post.