Upgrade Times and current pool of eligible FOs

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BTD
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Re: Upgrade Times and current pool of eligible FOs

Post by BTD »

During line indoc you are supposed to fly a variety of routes that provide a spectrum of the type of flying you will do.

The Faa has special qualification airports listed that crews have to meet specific requirements. Non requires sim training.

The company also has special qualification airports beyond the FAA ones where they have a set of requirements before flying there. Those are airport specific and may require a sim leg or not.
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TheStig
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Re: Upgrade Times and current pool of eligible FOs

Post by TheStig »

The objective of any training, initial upgrade or otherwise, would be to have a pilot re-enter the line flying with the right amount of confidence to safely operate day to day while being equipped with the proper toolbox to handle anything out of the norm. Transitioning from right-seat to left-seat is ideal but not always the case. Upgrading on the same type is like buying a new home with your wife, upgrading on a new type is like renting a new place with your tinder date, it's going to be a little akward.

Overconfidence can be an issue but for the most part, the opposite is true. Every pilot wants to feel like the master of their aircraft but that only comes with time on type. There is no amount of training that will get a pilot as comfortable in their new seat with a fresh endorsement as they were in after thousands of hours on their previous type. Nobody has the same background experience nor career path once at the airline. Line indoc is adapted to address areas of a pilots background that have not been covered. Captains upgrading from narrow body aircraft to wide bodies have a lot to cover with respect to overseas operations and taxiing techniques. A pilot with prior wide body experience would be more comfortable with the environment.
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yycflyguy
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Re: Upgrade Times and current pool of eligible FOs

Post by yycflyguy »

BTD wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:03 am During line indoc you are supposed to fly a variety of routes that provide a spectrum of the type of flying you will do.
That's in an ideal world. Reality is that you do your line indoctrination to where the company pulls the pairings and where the Line Indoc Captain's seniority bidding gets.

The command sims are not really as depicted previously by other posters. They used to be multiple, unrelated failures that were created by the "evaluator" but now they are nothing worse than a busy LOE that are scripted. It's a kinder, gentler AC. I have heard that the failure rate is unacceptably high right now, but not at 80% failure. Even with a 20% failure rate it creates a lot of simulator demand in an already maxed out sim availability. This is the time to screen and/or offer more training to those that need it.

Good post TheStig
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Re: Upgrade Times and current pool of eligible FOs

Post by altiplano »

Is it failure? Or people walking away during the upgrade before they potentially fail and get a strike against?

I know a couple that were the latter I've the past year or so.... in the end it's an unsuccessful upgrade attempt so same:same I guess...

I'd be surprised if 80%, I'd be surprised if 20% even... but I'm not in training department so maybe I'm out of the loop on this...
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Re: Upgrade Times and current pool of eligible FOs

Post by BTD »

yycflyguy wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:09 am
BTD wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:03 am During line indoc you are supposed to fly a variety of routes that provide a spectrum of the type of flying you will do.
That's in an ideal world. Reality is that you do your line indoctrination to where the company pulls the pairings and where the Line Indoc Captain's seniority bidding gets.

The command sims are not really as depicted previously by other posters. They used to be multiple, unrelated failures that were created by the "evaluator" but now they are nothing worse than a busy LOE that are scripted. It's a kinder, gentler AC. I have heard that the failure rate is unacceptably high right now, but not at 80% failure. Even with a 20% failure rate it creates a lot of simulator demand in an already maxed out sim availability. This is the time to screen and/or offer more training to those that need it.

Good post TheStig
As a Line Training Captain I am aware that the poor guys that fly with me end up going where I'm going anyway. That is why I included "supposed" in my comments. But my response was to OldFella's question above.

The reality that I see is that most people are relatively strong. They are almost all willing to listen and have discussions and have great CRM. I usually tell them at the start that I am here to learn too, that's what I like about this job. So if they have a tip or experience from the past lets talk about it. I'm all ears.
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Re: Upgrade Times and current pool of eligible FOs

Post by Warden »

altiplano wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:17 am Is it failure? Or people walking away during the upgrade before they potentially fail and get a strike against?

I know a couple that were the latter I've the past year or so.... in the end it's an unsuccessful upgrade attempt so same:same I guess...

I'd be surprised if 80%, I'd be surprised if 20% even... but I'm not in training department so maybe I'm out of the loop on this...
I heard it was %5.

So everyone hears different things. Maybe %5 is actual fail rate, %20 might be including those who decide to step back from the course.
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Re: Upgrade Times and current pool of eligible FOs

Post by '97 Tercel »

upgrading on a new type is like renting a new place with your tinder date, it's going to be a little akward.

:lol:
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Re: Upgrade Times and current pool of eligible FOs

Post by fish4life »

'97 Tercel wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:49 pm
upgrading on a new type is like renting a new place with your tinder date, it's going to be a little akward.

:lol:
Probably one of the best analogies I’ve heard
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Re: Upgrade Times and current pool of eligible FOs

Post by yaba »

How do upgrades work at AC? If you meet the company requirments in terms of hours is it then just senority? Is there an interview or SIM evaluation?
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Re: Upgrade Times and current pool of eligible FOs

Post by bcflyer »

It’s purely seniority. There are no hour requirements, interviews or sim evaluations
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Re: Upgrade Times and current pool of eligible FOs

Post by jpilot77 »

Incorrect. Seniority is part of it but there is an command interview and command sim evaluations.
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altiplano
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Re: Upgrade Times and current pool of eligible FOs

Post by altiplano »

Not much of an interview... not everyone does it and it's not limiting... meet and greet with the fleet CP at most.

The upgrade position award is 100% seniority based.

But you have to be able to pass it...
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Re: Upgrade Times and current pool of eligible FOs

Post by bcflyer »

They actually took the command interview out of the FOM. The command sims are part of the upgrade process not the selection process.
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Re: Upgrade Times and current pool of eligible FOs

Post by yycflyguy »

The command sims are not TC mandated either. It's an extra step that AC uses. The philosophy behind the command sims used to be to load the candidate up (sometimes with unrelated, unfair scenarios) but now they are treating it like a thorough LOE that is meant to build some confidence. Kinder, gentler AC now :lol:
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Re: Upgrade Times and current pool of eligible FOs

Post by islandguy »

yycflyguy wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:06 am The command sims are not TC mandated either. It's an extra step that AC uses. The philosophy behind the command sims used to be to load the candidate up (sometimes with unrelated, unfair scenarios) but now they are treating it like a thorough LOE that is meant to build some confidence. Kinder, gentler AC now :lol:
I think that also varies by fleet (and by the amount of time the training department has been operating). The 320 command sims are still very much of the 'one engine is stalling, the other is on fire, and you're hand flying in alternate law to minimums with an incapacitated FO' variety. I saw a brief description of the 737 command sim and it seemed more like what you describe—a somewhat more intense LOE. As the guy who told me about it put it, 'that sounds like a regular 4 month sim on the 320!'. Perhaps a reflection that it's a new fleet that's attracting a fair number of new captains...who knows.
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Re: Upgrade Times and current pool of eligible FOs

Post by altiplano »

One thing in the command sims is you won't always take the route that the checker would have chosen for himself, and you won't do everything perfect. Maybe you complicate something for yourself or miss something, but you keep going, make reasonable, justifiable decisions, never stop using the resources available, and see it through to the end safely - even if you're getting loaded up.

You run through 4 different loft/loe scenarios over 2 days, or at least mine was that, so the checker gets a feel for how you run the ship, and your confidence and knowledge level too. That holds a lot of sway I think, even if you get behind the 8-ball a bit in a scenario.

I would have done a few things different in mine, maybe several. Plus I pounded it on the runway every time... fucking simulator... but I still came or the other end successful, and it was a good learning experience.
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Re: Upgrade Times and current pool of eligible FOs

Post by Eric Janson »

Old fella wrote: Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:09 am What is the hardest part of command training if I may ask since you mentioned there quite a few evaluation processes along the route to getting the four stripes.
The hardest part for me was learning to taxi the aircraft. There was no tiller on the right side so I had never taxied the aircraft.
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Re: Upgrade Times and current pool of eligible FOs

Post by mixturerich »

yycflyguy wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:06 am The command sims are not TC mandated either. It's an extra step that AC uses. The philosophy behind the command sims used to be to load the candidate up (sometimes with unrelated, unfair scenarios) but now they are treating it like a thorough LOE that is meant to build some confidence. Kinder, gentler AC now :lol:
A “hazing ritual” as some have called it. You get your captaincy letter in the mail yet still have to go through the last few brutal sims.
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