CanadianBird wrote: ↑Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:28 am
Precisely. So, why not attempt to prevent these situations with a background check? Why not prevent/protect COPA, and other organizations from lawsuits, because they didn't provide "adequate checks"? That's exactly what this is trying to do.
I can offer you insurance to protect your kids! For a one time 50 CAD fee, I will cover any damage your kids might ever experience in their lifetime caused by a wild lion attack in Canada. Not only that, our company has proprietary techniques to make sure no kid in Canada ever falls victim to a wild lion in Canada. Join now and be protected for a lifetime.
Are you interested? Probably not.
Why not? Do you not care about the safety of your kids?
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
Precisely. So, why not attempt to prevent these situations with a background check? Why not prevent/protect COPA, and other organizations from lawsuits, because they didn't provide "adequate checks"? That's exactly what this is trying to do.
Maybe I am really out of touch with today's society and the way things work.
When I was in the flying business and we offered kids rides the people who brought their kids for the free rides were generally local people who we knew and they knew us.
It they had fears that we were child molesters they would not have risked their kids with us.
In my opinion this asking for a background check s window dressing because the checks are far from fool proof.
Why doesn't COPA also check to make sure their wife's are safe around us as well as their children, if you are going to be suspicious why not cover all bases?
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Last edited by C.W.E. on Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
CanadianBird wrote: ↑Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:28 am
Precisely. So, why not attempt to prevent these situations with a background check? Why not prevent/protect COPA, and other organizations from lawsuits, because they didn't provide "adequate checks"? That's exactly what this is trying to do.
I can offer you insurance to protect your kids! For a one time 50 CAD fee, I will cover any damage your kids might ever experience in their lifetime caused by a wild lion attack in Canada. Not only that, our company has proprietary techniques to make sure no kid in Canada ever falls victim to a wild lion in Canada. Join now and be protected for a lifetime.
Are you interested? Probably not.
Why not? Do you not care about the safety of your kids?
CanadianBird wrote: ↑Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:28 am
Precisely. So, why not attempt to prevent these situations with a background check? Why not prevent/protect COPA, and other organizations from lawsuits, because they didn't provide "adequate checks"? That's exactly what this is trying to do.
I can offer you insurance to protect your kids! For a one time 50 CAD fee, I will cover any damage your kids might ever experience in their lifetime caused by a wild lion attack in Canada. Not only that, our company has proprietary techniques to make sure no kid in Canada ever falls victim to a wild lion in Canada. Join now and be protected for a lifetime.
Are you interested? Probably not.
Why not? Do you not care about the safety of your kids?
CanadianBird wrote: ↑Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:28 amPrecisel y. So, why not attempt to prevent these situations with a background check? Why not prevent/protect COPA, and other organizations from lawsuits, because they didn't provide "adequate checks"? That's exactly what this is trying to do.
Because it's doing it in the least effective way it could possibly do it. Require it for *all* participants, so you cover all the bases. If you have to pick a smaller group to start with the excuse that you have to make it "palatable", you're already saying that this isn't a great method for preventing issues.
If you want to target a smaller group with a greater success rate, require checks for the ground crew... They spend multiple hours with each kid, and the pilot spends at best 20 minutes. The ground crew can be any club member who walks in off the street after hearing that there will be an event with lots of kids present... They risk very little by attending.
AirFrame wrote: ↑Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:21 am
...
If you want to target a smaller group with a greater success rate, require checks for the ground crew... They spend multiple hours with each kid, and the pilot spends at best 20 minutes. The ground crew can be any club member who walks in off the street after hearing that there will be an event with lots of kids present... They risk very little by attending.
My 13 year old ran the ground portion of our last C4K rally. She had the most experience of all the ground crew volunteers having attended these events starting in utero. I guess she would need VS check as well
I understand what you are saying. I'm not sure how any of these checks are going to prevent something that as far as I know has never happened yet but insurance requirements run the modern world and WTFDIK.
This seems a little overboard... A cereal killer, flying children around... I mean crazier things have happen on this globe. If you even have a criminal record like that can you even get a pilots license?
I got my pilots licence and 2 commercial flying jobs with a criminal record. It was a dangerous driving charge from when I was 19, no one hurt just me being a stupid 19 year old. A fine and a license suspension was all I got. Completely forgot I had it until it came up when I applied for my 3rd flying job when I was in my late 30's, guess they ran a check, then I just got a pardon for it. - don't know if a police check shows what the person did to get the records whether minor or severe.
We were down two planes at our latest CFK. From 7 to 5. 4 of the 5 already had VSC done through their various day jobs so they didn't have to do anything.
We have one this weekend. Normally can get 8-10 pilots/aircraft, only have 4 at this time. It was rescheduled from 2 weeks ago (not related to the VSC) but this gave one of our pilots extra time to get his VSC otherwise we would only have 3.
The June COPA magazine "President's Corner" stated clearly this was NOT a requirement from the insurer/Sponsor AIG but rather an internal decision.
I would say the losses have more to do with people being busy and too self involved to bother. People here complaining how a quick piece of paper from the cops is too overbearing.
GENERAL AVIATION IS DYING OUT.
It's too expensive for more and more people, people are also too busy with too many other things. At least there is now statistically less criminals flying kids around, I can't see any other reason to avoid getting a check.
as previously posted, it is not at least for some of us a quick and easy piece of paper.
I have done it several times. It goes on birthdate and sex, since you can change your name, but not your birthday"wonder about the sex thing" thanks Trudeau I did it first for medevacs, and found out, lo and behold I have the same birthdate. Followed by an appointment how many weeks later" after the file comes back, "I told you just book the appt." to go back down and give your fingerprints. "then wait another 2 or so weeks for the quick and easy paper taking around 6 weeks" new addendum.
I had kids in 3 schools +cadets, choir etc...... I have to go down and do it 4 times"because they can't simply do it once for the year" I no longer volunteer.......
Heliian wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:34 pm
GENERAL AVIATION IS DYING OUT.
So more paperwork is the solution?
Heliian wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:34 pm
At least there is now statistically less criminals flying kids around, I can't see any other reason to avoid getting a check.
I'd say there are more.
Innocent volunteers don't want to bother or are -rightfully in this case IMO- offended and don't want to do it for a plethora of reasons. Pervert pilots who want to touch kids but haven't been caught yet, will go through the extra trouble of getting the check done.
Schooner69A wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:46 pm
Those who were doing it reluctantly in the past have found an ideal reason to not step up to the plate now;
If all "reluctant volunteers" would quit, very few non profit organisations would survive.
Schooner69A wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:46 pm
Luckily for us, most of our pilots realize that it's about the children and not them.
Yes, think about the children!
You put a child in a 60 year old privately maintained airplane with a pilot that is probably about the same age and hasn't seen an examiner or checkride in 40 years. But the biggest safety issue is that he might touch your kid!
---------- ADS -----------
As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
Heliian wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:34 pm
I would say the losses have more to do with people being busy and too self involved to bother. People here complaining how a quick piece of paper from the cops is too overbearing.
GENERAL AVIATION IS DYING OUT.
It's too expensive for more and more people, people are also too busy with too many other things. At least there is now statistically less criminals flying kids around, I can't see any other reason to avoid getting a check.
"Too self involved" ? People are donating their time! People have lives! Why would anyone bother donating their time when it keeps getting more difficult for them to do so?
Our biggest obstacle at CYTZ wasn’t the VSC, it was the weather! On our rain date for our C4K we had 4 airplanes fly over 50 kids around downtown Toronto. We would have had a fifth airplane, but it was grounded from a maintenance snag.
The process for getting a VSC in Toronto is a huge pain in the @$$, but the pilots and other volunteers remembered who C4K is really about...the kids!
