New WestJet FO

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yaba
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Re: New WestJet FO

Post by yaba »

So, how does the upgrade from FO-Capt. work at mainline WJ. .Is it strictly seniority. Do they do a SIM eval. Capt. Interview??

Thanks.
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WestJet Puke
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Re: New WestJet FO

Post by WestJet Puke »

cloak wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:10 am Of course career moves are based on individuals' situation and preference. As far as WestJet group is concerned, it seems to be poised for significant growth and as such it provides a great opportunity. An opportunity that must be examined carefully by individuals and taken if one sees oneself fitting well into its culture and pattern of growth. As it will be weighed carefully by the group to recruit individuals that not only understand its culture and growth plans, but also espouse its values, culture and goals for the long term.

Likely there will always be candidates who fake a smile to get a job, but hopefully for their own benefit and the benefit of those around them, fewer and fewer going forward. Life is too short and too precious. Work somewhere that makes you happy, because it will likely have the same effect on people around you, staff and customers alike!
WestJet has been telling us they've been poised for significant growth for the last 2-3 years. All I know is that there are no upgrades on virtually every PSB that comes out, and very few widebody FO slots. Most of the current 767/787 FOs were reasonably senior 737 Captains. The Crew Management guys keep on telling us the 787s are going to open things up, but thus far I haven't seen it. I do know that the MAX situation probably is playing havoc with their staffing models, as no one knows when we'll get them back.

The junior-most 737 CA is an ~ August 2010 hire.
The junior-most 767 FO is a ~ March 2008 hire
The junior-most 787 FO has a 2003 date of hire.

We just had a few guys get awarded YVR FO, after a ~2 year wait. We have FOs who have been waiting to transfer to YYC for 2-3 years with few openings. I've heard of Captains downgrading to get back to YYC.

Hopefully those #s start dropping. You can go to AC and be an A220 Captain next year if you want to. At WestJet, I can't imagine the day I'll see the left seat. Opportunities for 737 upgrades at WestJet will almost certainly be in YYZ. Here's guessing they might start basing the 787s at either YVR or YYZ in 1-2-3 years. You can go to the Swoop side of the house if you want, but few folks are, as by the time you get to Year 3 FO, the pay is virtually identical, with 20% vs 10% ESP, and much better work rules / protections.

On the positive side, if you come here, you'll make ok $. Once you reach Year 3, you can do $120-150k all together. There are FOs who work much harder and bring in more. Good training department, good people to fly with for the most part.

Now we just need for that growth to start happening..... :smt040 :smt040 :smt040
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KAG
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Re: New WestJet FO

Post by KAG »

Upgrades are seniority based. As long as your last few sims are clean and you dont have a serious attitude problem you get your upgrade.
That seniority list includes encore and swoop.
As for swoop who knows what onex has planned. Right now its slated to get 10 aircraft. Who knows if it'll expand or not. Lots of change coming. Overall feeling is optimistic.
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WestJet Puke
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Re: New WestJet FO

Post by WestJet Puke »

KAG wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:32 am Upgrades are seniority based. As long as your last few sims are clean and you dont have a serious attitude problem you get your upgrade.
That seniority list includes encore and swoop.
As for swoop who knows what onex has planned. Right now its slated to get 10 aircraft. Who knows if it'll expand or not. Lots of change coming. Overall feeling is optimistic.
+1 on everything.

Although with over 2000 pilots on the combined seniority list (which includes or is going to include everyone at WJ, Encore, and the Swoopsters who were not WestJetters) and few WestJet 737 upgrades or widebody transitions, you may find yourself waiting a while.

Optimistic for what Onex is planning.
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yaba
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Re: New WestJet FO

Post by yaba »

KAG wrote: Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:32 am Upgrades are seniority based. As long as your last few sims are clean and you dont have a serious attitude problem you get your upgrade.
So how is it handled if there has been a SIM or attitude issue in the past?
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Hangry
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Re: New WestJet FO

Post by Hangry »

you'll be sent to an "re-educaton" camp.
"Groom"!
"WestJet is the best".
"Lower the bar to compete!"

Say that over and over again forever. That'll make you a good WJ employee.
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JoeyBarton
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Re: New WestJet FO

Post by JoeyBarton »

So Encore is not on the same list as wj-swoop?
So there is no guarantee transat will be on the same list as ac, although they will enjoy a common employer just like Encore.
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hifliers
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Re: New WestJet FO

Post by hifliers »

Kag is correct, but there is more to a Captain upgrade at WJ than what he alludes to.

It starts with an interview -- management has talked to the last few Captains you have flown with -- where they discuss your training record, attitude, expectations of what they want from you as a line Captain and so on. About an hour long. You do a written test of 100 questions where 75 are open book, and 25 closed. The closed questions deal with limitations on the airplane, which one should know as they would have been flying the airplane for 9 years. The open book ones deal with anything WJ related, from explaining the ground delay protocol as it pertains to JFK, to naming the instances where you should make an intermediary landing at a suitable airport. You need 85% to pass.

Then you and your sim partner, another F/O who is also upgrading, do 2 sim sessions. Day 1 you sit in the left seat, with your partner as the best F/O you will ever have, and on day 2 the roles are reversed where you are the best F/O your partner will ever have. If you are successful you are recommended for the ride, and day 3 you sit in the left seat with a line F/O who has been here for at least 3 years. It is a day of training, and day 4 is a Transport Canada check ride.

If successful, you then get 2-4 day pairings, with 2 different line instructors, with you wearing your 3 stripes sitting in the left seat on revenue flights. You are acting Captain. If successful, there is a one day line release flight, and if you are successful, you are given your 4th stripe. You will have weather limits that are higher than everyone else, your flight plans will have IC behind your name (initial captain, or incompetent, take your pick). That helps Crew Sched in not pairing you with and IFO, initial first officer. After 300 hours your weather limitations are removed, and you can do all flying, except ETOPS, which is another 1 day ground course, revenue flight training, and a line check. after 6 months you are back in the sim and again you do a Transport Canada check ride, and if successful, the training department finally lets you go and you will be a regular line guy, commuting to Toronto. You then alternate between check rides and lofts, and you can get paired up with anyone including IFOs.

That's it in a nutshell. Not everyone is successful. It is a lot of work, but hey, it's your career.
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yaba
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Re: New WestJet FO

Post by yaba »

hifliers wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:04 am Kag is correct, but there is more to a Captain upgrade at WJ than what he alludes to.

It starts with an interview -- management has talked to the last few Captains you have flown with -- where they discuss your training record, attitude, expectations of what they want from you as a line Captain and so on. About an hour long. You do a written test of 100 questions where 75 are open book, and 25 closed. The closed questions deal with limitations on the airplane, which one should know as they would have been flying the airplane for 9 years. The open book ones deal with anything WJ related, from explaining the ground delay protocol as it pertains to JFK, to naming the instances where you should make an intermediary landing at a suitable airport. You need 85% to pass

So at this stage if something didn't go well for an FO wanting to upgrade how does the company handle it. Will they try to rehabilitate and attitude problem, if a guy missed a couple of the questions do they offer some assistance ( granted that at this stage they shouldnt really be too challenged)

Do many guys have problems at this stage?
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yaba
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Re: New WestJet FO

Post by yaba »

hifliers wrote: Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:04 am Kag is correct, but there is more to a Captain upgrade at WJ than what he alludes to.

It starts with an interview -- management has talked to the last few Captains you have flown with -- where they discuss your training record, attitude, expectations of what they want from you as a line Captain and so on. About an hour long. You do a written test of 100 questions where 75 are open book, and 25 closed. The closed questions deal with limitations on the airplane, which one should know as they would have been flying the airplane for 9 years. The open book ones deal with anything WJ related, from explaining the ground delay protocol as it pertains to JFK, to naming the instances where you should make an intermediary landing at a suitable airport. You need 85% to pass.

Then you and your sim partner, another F/O who is also upgrading, do 2 sim sessions. Day 1 you sit in the left seat, with your partner as the best F/O you will ever have, and on day 2 the roles are reversed where you are the best F/O your partner will ever have. If you are successful you are recommended for the ride, and day 3 you sit in the left seat with a line F/O who has been here for at least 3 years. It is a day of training, and day 4 is a Transport Canada check ride.


If successful, you then get 2-4 day pairings, with 2 different line instructors, with you wearing your 3 stripes sitting in the left seat on revenue flights. You are acting Captain. If successful, there is a one day line release flight, and if you are successful, you are given your 4th stripe. You will have weather limits that are higher than everyone else, your flight plans will have IC behind your name (initial captain, or incompetent, take your pick). That helps Crew Sched in not pairing you with and IFO, initial first officer. After 300 hours your weather limitations are removed, and you can do all flying, except ETOPS, which is another 1 day ground course, revenue flight training, and a line check. after 6 months you are back in the sim and again you do a Transport Canada check ride, and if successful, the training department finally lets you go and you will be a regular line guy, commuting to Toronto. You then alternate between check rides and lofts, and you can get paired up with anyone including IFOs.

That's it in a nutshell. Not everyone is successful. It is a lot of work, but hey, it's your career.
So if an FO wasn’t successful at the initial stage of this do they offer any assistance or support, or is that it your not upgrading?

Do many people have problems during the upgrade process
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Hangry
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Re: New WestJet FO

Post by Hangry »

Yes. Lots of answers. Except to the questions you were asking. :lol:
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cloak
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Re: New WestJet FO

Post by cloak »

WestJet Puke wrote: Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:27 pm
WestJet has been telling us they've been poised for significant growth for the last 2-3 years. ...
WestJet had stated publicly few years ago that it intended to become one of the top airlines in the world. If memory serves, I believe they said top 10. As an independent observer, it should not hard NOW (with the turn of events with ONEX and J.V) to perceive that significant growth was not far-fetched, in fact quite possible, rather inevitable.

At the same time, if one, again as an independent observer, was to juxtapose that aspiration with labour relations and reactions, it becomes clear that one element of that equation was missing. Notwithstanding allocating faults, which at this point serves no purpose, it becomes evident why "significant" growth as intended, planned or aspired, has not come to pass YET. Added obstacle, has been the MAX situation that has taken everyone by surprise.

On a positive note however, it can be hoped, rather envisioned, that with the resolution of the MAX troubles, approval of the J.V and finalization of ONEX deal, not to mention improving labour relations, "significant" growth can come rather quickly. You may have to seek a new handle then!! :D
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Blue42
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Re: New WestJet FO

Post by Blue42 »

Hangry wrote: Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:12 pm 650 pilots coming to AC with 20 wide bodies and however many narrow bodies.

28 or so max on the way. 50 220’s.

The myth of the stagnation is way over rated (at least to a NB left seat). But keep telling yourself that.
Expansion looks great when you only list the new aircraft arriving at AC, and not the aircraft leaving the fleet, B763, A320s, A319s....and don’t forget the new Jazz CPA with around 60% flowing to mainline.
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kiaszceski
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Re: New WestJet FO

Post by kiaszceski »

So why would someone join Westjet if there is a 9 year wait to hold a left seat?

With Onex new plan and assuming they are expanding widebodies why would people go to AC after joining Westjet ?

Is there so much of a difference between AC collective agreement and WJ one ?
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Mrbobmarly111
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Re: New WestJet FO

Post by Mrbobmarly111 »

I dont want to be a dick. But AC is 100% better. Westjet collective agreement sucks. AC is the place to be. I'm not saying someone can't havr a career at westjet. But dont kid yourself its way way better in all ways at AC. And if you need convincing just ask the 100+ westjet pilots to go to AC this year alone.
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kiaszceski
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Re: New WestJet FO

Post by kiaszceski »

Any numbers ? Better wages at AC ? Better benefits ? By how much ?
Considering only NB and no WB.
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Hangry
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Re: New WestJet FO

Post by Hangry »

In the short term you’d have a much better lifestyle at WJ.

If you’re in it for the long game WJ can’t touch AC with progression, earnings, and lifestyle.
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kiaszceski
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Re: New WestJet FO

Post by kiaszceski »

So when would this short term / long term thing shift ?
Considering a 30-year career, after year 5 Captain ?
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kilocharliemike
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Re: New WestJet FO

Post by kilocharliemike »

Hello,

Where does initial sim training take place? If for whatever reason it is not YYC? Someone said sim locations may vary...

Cheers
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Re: New WestJet FO

Post by KAG »

Ok someone asked about having trouble with upgrade: we do have a process, alpa did add some clarity to the whole thing for those having issues. Attitude wise they call your skippers yohvd flown with to see how you perform, and obviously if you have a big file if reprimands thats not going go well for you. You get 3 chances at the left seat. But honestly after 7 years in the right seat doing rides and lofts its pretty straight forward. If you dont prepare yourself before stepping into the sim you dont deserve it. That said it's easy to pouch a ride, it happens, you'll get 2 more chances.

Career wise, AC is better in virtually every way. Schedule wise for a junior hire at WJ is pretty damn good, Rouge would be similar in that regard.get stuck on reserve at AC and life sucks. You will make more money at AC, pension (haven't seen ours so cant compare yet), better benifets and they're provided for, ours are expensive and sub par.
The people I work with are awesome, even with the last few years of growing pains it's still a good gig.
Onex is truly a game changer. Ask me in a year how things are going. Were cautiously optimistic.
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